Balancing Act (Non-Core)

[Skyserpent]

We've all seen balance threads and here's another one. Now, the question I pose:

Supposedly, Tome of Battle was meant to bring melee combatants up to mage level combat ability without really trampling on their role. It does an admirable job, but nonetheless, falls short, as it doesn't really match the sheer cheese of a full caster.

However, Tome of Magic had three completely different styles of casters, specifically Shadowcasters and Truenamers, (Binders weren't all that kin to full casters...) Who use far more limited and hopefully balanced spell-lists.

So are these two books balanced? Or does one edge the other out in optimization and/or cheese? On that note, what of the Complete Series full casters? Warlocks are underpowered, as are Warmages, but Wu-Jen? and Shugenja, are they as broken as their core counterparts? Spirit Shaman's I've done very little reading on... (note: Favored Souls are functionally Sorcerous Styled Clerics so they are out of discussion)

[puppyavenger]

hmm

I think that is basicly TOM<TOB

[Illiterate Scribe]

Binders have their functions, shadowcasters are fine with some tweaks, and truenamers are a lost cause. Spirit Shamans are very interesting, but somewhat underpowered - I think that if there was a dip in their spells retrieved/day, and they were given the UA shapeshifting rules, they would make an excellent druid fix.

[Skyserpent]

I never quite understood the Truenamers style... it seems like they make Magic a Skill Check... something that I kind of agree with... I mean, Somatic and Verbal components can't be perfect ALL the time...

[Dragonmuncher]

Tome of Battle tried to fix the caster/melee disparity by increasing the power of fighters.

Tome of Magic tried to fix it by decreasing the power of magic-users.

[tarbrush]

ToB is great as it addresses some of they key weaknesses of fighters (flight, teleportation, weak saves) and added style.

ToM is cool. I think all the classes present much more in depth and rounded systems of magic. But, they are, to a greater or lesser degree, eclipsed by other more normal classes.

Still worht playing though. So yeah, I think ToB is better balanced than ToM, but they're both very cool. I just wish they'd lavished the attention used for Magic of Incarnum on ToM. And made truenamers better.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I've had thoughts about a campaign or adventure that gets rid of normal casters and warriors and replaces them with ToB and ToM classes. See how things work out.

[Skyserpent]

I've had thoughts about a campaign or adventure that gets rid of normal casters and warriors and replaces them with ToB and ToM classes. See how things work out.

If you don't have Clerics... who heals?

[Dhavaer]

If you don't have Clerics... who heals?

Truenamers and Crusaders can heal.

[TheOOB]

There is nothing so wrong with the core magic system that it can't be fixed. The biggest problum is the classes that use the system, and some of the more powerful spells, the system itself is fine.

Here are some changes to the core magic classes that could make them more balanced.

-No more preparation casters. It's bad enough having spells the are leagues better then anything anyone else in your party can do, you don't also need to be able to change your spell list every day, thats just too powerful.

-MAD spellcasting. Spellcasters begin and end with their casting stat, when all other classes need at least two attributes to be good. I suggest that all arcane casters use Int for spells per day max spell level, while divine use Wis. All casters would use Cha for spell save DC and other spell effects based on the casters casting attribute.

-Trim the spell list. Some spells just shouldn't exist (polymorph, alter self, cerelity, ect).

-Give them meaningful class abilities without making them much more powerful. One of the problums with casters now is that they can PrC with virtually no drawbacks except for maybe a feat or a few skill points (and some times not even that). Make it so that in order to get access to the cool PrC abilities, they need to give up something important, while not crippling(such as caster levels). My suggestion, make some of their spells per day/spells known class abilities.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

You know, I think I'd like to see a Tome of Divinity to further make this new wave of balance annihilate all that is core. It can address clerics, druids, paladins, even monks (though the variant swordsage seems to do that already). That leaves only ranged combat, which your standard D&D party can do without easily anyway. Besides, most ToB maneuvers can be accomplished with ranged weapons. There's just no specialized aspect for them apart from the bloodstorm prestige class.