Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    This is an all mundane support class! My first attempt at building a full class (and way more work than I expected). I'm sure it's overpowered, underpowered, and just plain stupid in about equal measure so please, rip it to pieces. Proper overarching fluff to be included eventually. Fair warning that the Valet was mainly intended a joke archetype.

    Table: The Professional
    Level Proficiency Features Toolkit Charges
    1st
    +2
    Vocation, Cosmopolitan Experience
    -
    2nd
    +2
    Toolkit, Exceptional Preparation
    2
    3rd
    +2
    Professional Leadership
    3
    4th
    +2
    Ability Score Improvement
    4
    5th
    +3
    Vocation Feature, Deep Pockets
    5
    6th
    +3
    Contagious Discipline
    6
    7th
    +3
    Deadly Blow, Itinerant Expert
    7
    8th
    +3
    Ability Score Improvement
    8
    9th
    +4
    Vocation Feature
    9
    10th
    +4
    Expertise
    10
    11th
    +4
    Ultimate Bag of Tricks
    11
    12th
    +4
    Ability Score Improvement
    12
    13th
    +5
    Vocation Feature
    13
    14th
    +5
    Improved Deadly Blow, International Reputation
    14
    15th
    +5
    Certainty of Purpose
    15
    16th
    +5
    Ability Score Improvement
    16
    17th
    +6
    Vocation Feature
    17
    18th
    +6
    Unerring Instinct
    18
    19th
    +6
    Ability Score Improvement
    19
    20th
    +6
    Peerless Expertise
    20

    Class Features
    As a Professional you have the following class features:

    Hit Points
    Hit Dice: 1d8 per professional level
    Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
    Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per professional level after 1st.

    Proficiencies:
    Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
    Weapons: Simple weapons, shortswords, heavy crossbows.
    Saving Throws: Dexterity, Intelligence
    Skills: Choose four from Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Investigation, History, Animal Handling, Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception, Intimidation and Persuasion.

    Equipment
    You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background.
    a) a shortsword or b) any martial weapon (if proficient)
    a) leather armor b) scale mail or c) chainmail (if proficient)
    a) a light crossbow and case of 20 bolts or b) a shield
    a) a scholar's pack b) a diplomat's pack or c) a dungeoneer's pack
    Two daggers

    Vocation
    At 1st level you choose a Vocation that reflects your professional career: Physician, Quartermaster, Scholar, Skulker or Valet, all detailed at the end of the class description. Your Vocation grants you features at 1st level, and then again at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level.

    Cosmopolitan Experience
    Your extensive career has exposed you to many different people, trades, and cultures. You gain proficiency with two languages, two sets of tools, or one language and one tool.

    Toolkit
    Starting at 2nd level, you gain access to your professional toolkit. This bag can be anything from a small leather briefcase to a bulging burlap sack. Your access to this handy statchel of, tricks, medicines, tools and bizarre equipment is represented by a number of toolkit charges. Your professional level determines the number of charges you have, as detailed in the Toolkit Charges column of the professional table. You can spend these charges to fuel various toolkit features. You start with three such features: Sudden Intervention, Blinding Spray, and Calming Presence. You gain more toolkit features as you gain levels in the class. When you spend a toolkit charge, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you recover all charges. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest restocking your toolkit to regain the charges. Some of the toolkit features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature's effects. The DC of this saving throw is equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier.

    Sudden Intervention
    You can spend 1 Toolkit Charge to take the Help action as a bonus action targeting an ally within 30 feet.

    Blinding Spray
    You spend 1 Toolkit Charge to hurl a burst of metal filings, caustic powder, or vile smelling ink in your opponent's face. As an action select an opponent within 20 feet. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be blinded until the start of their next turn.

    Calming Presence
    As an action you can spend 1 Toolkit Charge to end the charmed or frightened condition on an ally within 30 feet.

    Exceptional Preparation
    Your exceptional professionalism grants you the extraordinary ability to temporarily hone your allies' talents beyond their natural limits. You may use a bonus action on your turn to choose one creature other than yourself within 60 feet who can hear you. That creature becomes Exceptionally Prepared. Once within the next 10 minutes when the creature makes an ability check that allows them to add their proficiency bonus they can choose to add double their proficiency bonus instead. The creature must decide to do this before they make the roll. Once the creature's Exceptional Preparation is used it is lost. A creature can only have one use of Exceptional Preparation at a time. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.

    Professional Leadership
    Your keen, professional eye allows you to rapidly support your allies in combat. When an ally within 60' of you rolls attack damage you may use your reaction to allow them to reroll one of the damage dice they rolled as a d8. They must use the new roll in place of their previous damage, adding their modifiers as normal. You use this ability after damage is rolled, but before the damage is inflicted. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining any expended uses on a short or long rest. Your Professional Leadership die changes when you reach certain levels in this class. The die becomes a d10 at 8th level and a d12 at 13th level.

    Ability Score Increase
    When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

    Deep Pockets
    Your toolkit always seems to contain exactly the tool you need for the task in front of you. By using your action to reach into your toolkit you can produce any entirely generic item costing 25 gp or less that is listed in the Adventuring Gear table on page 150 of the PHB. The item must be able to fit into a cube three feet on a side. Though it functions perfectly, the item is so battered by its time in the recesses of your toolkit that merchants and traders will consider it valueless. This ability cannot recharge until the item produced has been entirely used, discarded, or returned to the toolkit (where you cannot find it again without expending another use of Deep Pockets). Once the item has been expended or returned you cannot produce another item using this feature until you finish a short rest.

    Contagious Discipline
    You can spend 2 toolkit charges to use a bonus action to grant an ally within 60 feet one new saving throw on your turn against an ongoing effect.

    Itinerant Expert
    Long years of practice have taught you the skills required to traverse difficult terrain in the pursuit of your profession. Certain types of natural obstacles no longer impede your pursuit of your chosen craft. Select one of the options listed below.
    • Gain a climb speed equal to your movement.
    • Gain a swim speed equal to your movement.
    • Any mount gains an extra 10' of movement so long as you are riding it.


    Deadly Blow
    Years of careful study of armor, anatomy, or the nature of living things allows you to always land your blows where the weapon bites hardest. Your strikes come where your opponent's defenses are weakest, and your weapons always leave deep wounds. Your weapons now deal an additional 1d10 damage of their normal type.

    Expertise
    Choose two skills or tools with which your are proficient. Your proficiency bonus is now doubled for all ability checks that add your bonus with these skills.

    Ultimate Bag of Tricks
    Your toolkit now includes boxes of strange narcotics, paralytic powders, cumbersome chains, or other exotic equipment capable of restraining your opponents. As an action you can spend two toolkit charges to launch a barrage of this equipment at one of your opponents. Choose a creature within 20 feet. That creature must make a Constitution saving throw or be restrained until the end of your next turn.

    Improved Deadly Blow
    Your understanding of the weaknesses inherent to any living defense has reached a point of grim perfection. Your weapons now deal an additional 2d10 of their normal damage type.

    International Reputation
    You are one of a select few members of your profession so expert as to be known across the world. Whenever purchase mundane equipment you find you are are so universally respected among the professional and merchant classes that if they have heard of you they will likely sell to you at cost. Whenever you interact with a mundane merchant roll a d10. On on roll of 5 or higher the base price of the goods you wish to buy is halved.

    Certainty of Purpose
    Your professional discipline is unwavering. You know your purpose, your path, and you have the skill to carry yourself unerringly to the end you seek. No power can shake your dedication to your chosen craft. You can proficiency in Wisdom and Charisma saving throws.

    Unerring Instinct
    Your careful study of your chosen vocation has granted you an understanding of the world around you that verges on a 6th sense. You know the location of any invisible or ethereal creatures within 30 feet of you.

    Peerless Expertise
    In your chosen field you are almost beyond comparison. Few members of your profession have ever matched your skill and dedication, almost certainly none of them living. You have advantage on all ability checks that allow you to add your full proficiency bonus.


    Vocations
    Spoiler: Vocations
    Show

    Physician

    The Path of the Healer
    Beginning when you chose this Vocation at 1st level you are trained in the fundamentals of healing, including knowledge a recipe for a panacea that verges on the supernatural. Once per day, when you complete a long rest, you can prepare a number of doses of this panacea equal to your Intelligence modifier. When you administer a dose of this panacea to a creature the creature recovers hit points equal to 2d6 + your Intelligence modifier. Your panacea dice improve as you gain Professional levels, increasing to 2d8 at 2nd level, 2d10 at 8th level, and 2d12 at 13th level. You may use a bonus action on your turn expend 2 toolkit points to regain a single dose of panacea.

    In addition you gain proficiency in Medicine. Your proficiency bonus is doubled with this skill.

    Soldier in the Oldest War
    At 5th level you become proficient in the treatment of poison and disease. You are familiar with a wide variety of diseases, and have been exposed to them yourself on many occasions. You gain the ability to expend 2 toolkit charges and use your action to cure a creature within 5 feet of one disease, or end the effect of one poison on them. In addition, you gain resistance to poison damage and immunity to disease.

    Wake the Dead
    At 9th level your toolkit now contains strange, unusual surgical tools. By spending 10 minutes working on the body you can restore any corpse that has died within the last 24 hours to life, causing them to recover with 1 hit point. While ministering to the body you seal up all mortal wounds, but are not able to restore missing body parts. You are also able to rid the corpse of all nonmagical poison and disease, though you can do nothing to cure magical disease, poisons, or curses. These take effect again as soon as the body is restored to life. If the creature is lacking body parts or organs integral for its survival—its head, for instance—you cannot wake the corpse. Undead cannot be restored to life using this technique. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a - 4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears. This technique is difficult, and requires a special blend of unusual solvents and powders costing 300gp. The special concoction is expended each time you use this ability, and must be re-prepared over the course of a long rest.

    Combat Medic
    At 13th level your toolkit is stocked with salves, drugs and surgical tools well beyond the scope of ordinary surgeons. You are prepared for any medical emergency and can react quickly to close wounds that lesser doctors would consider mortal. When a creature within 5' takes damage on your turn you may use your reaction to provide first aid. You expend a use of your Professional Leadership ability, reducing the damage taken by the creature by the amount rolled plus your intelligence modifier.

    Preventative Medicine
    Once per day you can spend one minute tending to an ally's every medical need. Choose a creature within 5 feet. The creature is cured of all disease and regains one hit point at the beginning of each of its turns for the next hour. For this time the creature also gains resistance to poison damage and has advantage on saving throws against poison and disease.


    Quartermaster

    Professional Soldier
    You are a laborer at war. Where others make their mark in battle with strength or cunning you make yours with sheer dogged preparation. You are trained for battle but know that to fight, one must first eat. Beginning when you choose this vocation at first level you can move overland at your normal pace while finding enough food to feed a number of humanoids equal to your Intelligence score (or half as many mounts).

    In addition you gain proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons.

    A Sergeant at Heart
    You've seen the aftermath of enough battles to know that careful drill can mean the difference between life and death. At 5th level you gain the ability to spend 10 minutes during a short rest haranguing, training, drilling, or otherwise exhorting your allies to better discipline in upcoming combat. You grant a number of creatures equal to your intelligence score temporary hit points equal to your professional level + your Intelligence modifier.

    Only the Finest
    At 9th level your time spent maintaining weapons and armor has taught you the value of careful preparation for battle. You have stocked your toolkit with exquisite smithing tools. At the end of a long rest you can sacrifice 3 toolkit charges to grant a +1 enhancement bonus to any mundane weapon or bundle of ammunition (20 pieces). The toolkit charges you expend using this feature cannot be recovered until the end of your next long rest. Any weapons enhanced by this feature are so well honed they are considered magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance. Weapons enhanced by this ability retain their bonus until you regain the expended toolkit charges.

    Back to Back!
    You wouldn't be alive if you didn't know how to rely on the people around you. At 13th level you gain the ability to use a bonus action to spend 3 toolkit charges and go back to back with another friendly fighter. Choose a willing creature within 5 feet of you. So long as you remain within 5 feet of one another you add your proficiency bonus to both your AC and the AC of the selected creature. This defensive technique is taxing, and requires your concentration. If either of you ends your turn more than 5 feet from the other the effect ends.

    Marching on your Stomach
    There's nothing more valuable to a fighting soldier than a really good cook. You have learned the eldritch recipes of the great military slopmasters that went before you, the kind of people who could make men fight to the death for one last taste of boot goulash. Your Professional Soldier feature now allows you to feed a number of creatures equal to your intelligence score no matter the circumstances. In addition, any creature you feed using this feature becomes so satisfied that they gain +5 feet of movement speed, resistance to one type of physical or elemental damage (selected by you when you prepare the meal), and have advantage on saving throws against fear effects. These benefits last until the beginning of their next long rest.


    Scholar

    Dedicated to Knowledge
    When you choose this Vocation at 1st level you gain proficiency in three skills selected from History, Religion, Nature, and Arcana.

    Your studies have also granted you familiarity with basic magical effects. If you spend 10 minutes examining an area you are able to identify the existence of a magical effect, its source, and the school of magic which produced it. Spending 10 minutes focusing on a specific magical item or object allows you to identify its name, origin, and any inherent properties or abilities it possesses.

    Academic Resource
    At 5th level you can use your Deep Pockets feature to produce a mundane book chosen by the DM that is at least tangentially related to any topic of your choosing. Reading the book may provide you with useful clues, significant names, cryptic babbling, or any other information at the GM's discretion. In addition the maximum value of the adventuring gear produced by the Deep Pockets feature increases to 100gp.

    Holistic Analysis
    Your study of the world, people, and arcane phenomena has left you with a deep understanding of the fundamental connections which underlie reality. By spending 10 minutes in deep meditation you are able to produce simple answers to problems which would otherwise have eluded you. In the course of your meditation you can produce answers to up to three questions. These answers may be simple yes or no, or might produce a short phrase. At the discretion of the DM you might also develop new questions which might otherwise not have occurred to you. If a question is so complex that you truly cannot solve it the period of meditation might produce simpler answers, surprising connections, or even simple confusion. This analysis is difficult, and you are only able to carry out a Holistic Analysis once per day.

    In addition, by spending 20 minutes concentrating on the metatextual nature of any book you may attune to it. You are able to read any text to which you are attuned as though it were written in your native language.

    Specialist's Understanding
    Though your studies are wide-ranging you have nevertheless developed a certain additional flair for a particular field of study. Select one of the options below.
    • Student of the Mind: Any creature who attempts to tell a direct lie while within 30' of you must make a Charisma saving throw against your toolkit DC. On a failure you know that they were lying.
    • Student of the Natural World: You are able to communicate simple ideas with beasts, plants, or other forms of natural life. Once per long rest you may expend three toolkit charges to summon one beast of CR 1/4 or higher, appropriate to the environment you are in. The beast is selected by the DM and acts under their control, but generally treats you as friendly. In addition, you have advantage on survival or nature checks made to identify plants or animals.
    • Dabbler in the Arcane: You learn four rituals selected from the Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard lists. Intelligence is your casting ability for these spells.
    • Master Architect: You have advantage on checks made when searching for traps, automatically detect the location of any secret door within 30' of you, and deal double damage to objects.


    Master Philosopher
    At 17th level you have amassed such extensive notes on every possible branch of earthly knowledge that you can speak at enormous length with only the slightest notice. As an action you expend 4 toolkit points to produce your notes from your toolkit and begin an interminable, droning lecture. Select a creature which can both hear and understand you. That creature must make an Intelligence saving throw or become incapacitated as it starts to falling into a heavy, inescapable sleep. On each successive turn you must use your bonus action to continue the lecture. The creature may repeat the saving throw if it takes damage, but otherwise remains incapacitated until it can no longer hear you, or you do not use your bonus action to extend the effect. When you activate this ability you may spend 2 further toolkit points for each additional creature you wish to target in range.


    Skulker

    The Helpful Sneak-At first level, you gain proficiency in Stealth. In addition, you can Help another person Sneak as a bonus action, or Help up to your Intelligence modifier people Sneak as an action.

    Look That Way!-At fifth level, you may, as an action, expend a number of charges from your toolkit up to your Intelligence modifier. For each charge spent, nominate a foe within 60'-this foe has disadvantage on finding you or your allies, being distracted by various tools you've thrown.

    From The Shadows We Strike-At ninth level, you can hide again after striking a foe, and can spend toolkit charges to allow an ally to do so. In order to hide after striking a foe, you must have struck them from behind, and they must have been unaware of your presence to start. Any ally within 60' may do this as well, though each time they do so requires you to spend a toolkit charge.

    Better Part of Valour-At thirteenth level, as a bonus action, you may now use the Disengage action.

    Now You See Me-At seventeenth level, may turn invisible. You can cast Invisibility using three toolkit charges, or Greater Invisibility using five.


    Valet

    Impeccable Service
    At the conclusion of a long rest you can spend 10 minutes attuning to a particular party member. You correct their dress, straighten their tie, make certain they are properly made up, and generally see to the correctness of their appearance. While you are within 60' of this attuned party member your AC is equal to 10 + Dexterity modifier + Intelligence modifier. When your attuned party member takes damage you can use your reaction and spend 1 toolkit charge to reduce incoming damage to your attuned party member by 1d8 + your Intelligence modifier.

    A Pleasure to be of Service
    When your attuned party member attacks an enemy you can use your reaction to make a single weapon attack against it as well. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1). You regain all charges of this feature when you finish a long rest.

    You Rang Sir?
    At 9th level once per long rest when your attuned party member calls your name while you are within 1000 feet you can use your reaction to teleport to any spot within 30' of them. You must appear in a square that is heavily obscured from the perspective of your attuned party member or the effect fails.

    Gentle Encouragement
    When within 60' of your attuned party member you can spend 1 toolkit point and use a bonus action to add your intelligence modifier to their next damage roll.

    In addition, when your attuned party member makes a saving throw you can use a reaction and spend two toolkit points to add your intelligence modifier to the result. When you make a saving throw while your party member is within 60' you can use a reaction and spend two toolkit points to add your attuned party member's charisma modifier to the result of your saving throw.

    Surely Sir, Not That Hat
    At 17th level you can spend 5 minutes ministering to your attuned party member to grant them one of the benefits of Enhance Ability until the beginning of their next long rest.


    Exorcist

    Shepherd the Flock
    Armored in Faith
    Cast Them Out!
    Bind the Outsider
    In Every Shadow Lurking
    Last edited by Flashy; 2017-04-04 at 02:49 AM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cleveland, MS
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I really like this.

    I think you have a few too many "on short rest" features, but it looks generally good. (Maybe have another one or two uses for Toolkit Charges as well; I dunno.) However, the flavor is absolutely there. I think you should specify something about the toolkit's size and dimensions and possibly a few more restrictions on Deep Pockets, but the handwave-y ability is fine.

    I assume Blinding Spray and Calming Presence both require an action to use?

    Wisdom and Charisma saves isn't bad, but I wish there was something more flavorful you could do instead.

    I think the Physician archetype seems good, but the Quartermaster seems too strong to me. The 9th and 17th level features are great buffs and not very limited in their application. And it's the stronger archetype in combat! I'd recommend toning that one down.

    Finish the Scholar and Valet; they'd both be good additions.

    This is something that I'd probably let players use if they asked me (well, the Physician archetype anyway). Coming from a guy who homebrews a bunch of stuff and is suspicious of other people's ability to do quality balancing, this is high praise.

    Having said all of that, I'm not sure I'm sold on the name.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    First of all thanks for the feedback! It was really helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I think you have a few too many "on short rest" features, but it looks generally good. (Maybe have another one or two uses for Toolkit Charges as well; I dunno.)
    This is a good point, but I'm not sure what to shift over to a long rest. I definitely want Professional Leadership to be something the class has frequent access to, and the toolkit charges are intentionally keyed as short rest dependent. Exceptional preparation is already long rest recharge, and most other things are passives. Should I change Deep Pockets to a long rest?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    However, the flavor is absolutely there. I think you should specify something about the toolkit's size and dimensions and possibly a few more restrictions on Deep Pockets, but the handwave-y ability is fine.
    I've added the requirement that the the items be able to fit in a cube three feet on a side. This still allows useful things like rope, a lantern, or spare clothes but removes objectively silly options like ladders, shovels, or portable rams. I might go back and change it to "items that could plausibly fit in the toolkit" but for now I'm happy with the stricter wording.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I assume Blinding Spray and Calming Presence both require an action to use?
    They do! Thanks for catching that, I've updated those sections to reflect it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Wisdom and Charisma saves isn't bad, but I wish there was something more flavorful you could do instead.
    I mostly added this feature because I hadn't given them a single defensive option, and I was worried about their survivability in the later levels. I agree that it's pretty dull. I originally considered instead granting the ability to burn three or four toolkit charges to automatically succeed on a saving throw (the idea being that they're frantically digging through the bag for things to counteract the effect), but I was worried it was both too powerful and too similar to the second half of the monk's Diamond Body feature. It would line up nicely with your suggestion that I add more uses for toolkit charges though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I think the Physician archetype seems good, but the Quartermaster seems too strong to me. The 9th and 17th level features are great buffs and not very limited in their application. And it's the stronger archetype in combat! I'd recommend toning that one down.
    I've definitely toned the Quartermaster down. I have no idea why I thought the ability to grant an entire party an effectively permanent +2 enhancement bonus at 13th level was balanced. I've shifted the features around and substantially reworked the whole vocation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Having said all of that, I'm not sure I'm sold on the name.
    I'm not that fond of it either, honestly. I originally had it down as the Expert, but I was worried it was too generic. It might honestly be a better fit though.


    I also added a VERY rough outline of possible Valet features. I'm not totally sure about balance, but I think it's headed in the right direction. Scholar still needs serious work.
    Last edited by Flashy; 2015-12-02 at 12:44 AM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ninja_Prawn's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashy View Post
    I'm not that fond of it either, honestly. I originally had it down as the Expert, but I was worried it was too generic. It might honestly be a better fit though.
    Nooooo, keep the name! We need more classes (and races and spells) named after Sleater-Kinney songs!
    Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!

    Spoiler: Acclaim
    Show
    Winner of Spellbrew Contest I & Subclass Contest II
    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That is the perfect ending. Thread done, Ninja_Prawn won.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We love our ninja prawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Gnoll View Post
    NinjaPrawn, you are my favourite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    Ninja you're like the forum's fairy godmother.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    This is why you're the best, Ninja Prawn.

    A Faerie Affair

    Homebrew: Sig, MHP

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Nooooo, keep the name! We need more classes (and races and spells) named after Sleater-Kinney songs!
    So then for the scholar capstone something along the lines of...

    The End of You
    You have read the hidden writings that underlie the fabric of reality and seen the fate of many things. You know the words that lie deeper than magic and have assembled the strange and delicate form books required twist the threads of destiny. As an action you can spend six toolkit points to focus the lens of destiny on a single creature within 60 feet. You speak a cruel, cruel phrase and twist the creature's fate. It must make a Constitution saving throw or become petrified. At the end of each of the target's turns it must repeat the Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws the creature remains petrified for 24 hours. After succeeding on three of these saving throws the creature recovers from the petrification and the effect ends.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ninja_Prawn's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashy View Post
    So then for the scholar capstone something along the lines of...

    The End of You
    You have read the hidden writings that underlie the fabric of reality and seen the fate of many things. You know the words that lie deeper than magic and have assembled the strange and delicate form books required twist the threads of destiny. As an action you can spend six toolkit points to focus the lens of destiny on a single creature within 60 feet. You speak a cruel, cruel phrase and twist the creature's fate. It must make a Constitution saving throw or become petrified. At the end of each of the target's turns it must repeat the Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws the creature remains petrified for 24 hours. After succeeding on three of these saving throws the creature recovers from the petrification and the effect ends.
    Hah, that's pretty good. Surprised you couldn't work "off the edge of truth" in there though...
    Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!

    Spoiler: Acclaim
    Show
    Winner of Spellbrew Contest I & Subclass Contest II
    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That is the perfect ending. Thread done, Ninja_Prawn won.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We love our ninja prawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Gnoll View Post
    NinjaPrawn, you are my favourite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    Ninja you're like the forum's fairy godmother.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    This is why you're the best, Ninja Prawn.

    A Faerie Affair

    Homebrew: Sig, MHP

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Hah, that's pretty good. Surprised you couldn't work "off the edge of truth" in there though...
    Fair, "You speak a cruel, cruel phrase and twist the creature's fate" should probably have been "You speak a cruel, cruel phrase and cast the creature off the edge of truth."
    Last edited by Flashy; 2015-12-02 at 06:51 AM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cleveland, MS
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Big chunk of suggested tweaks to some of the class features. Spoilered for length:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Spoiler: Base Features
    Show
    Deep Pockets - I think I would make this be something you do after taking a long rest, recharging after a long rest. You can fluff it as spending time tinkering with the stuff in your toolkit to find / hammer / craft what it is you need.

    Secondary Equipment - Maybe allow this to be used on an ally as well?

    Deadly Blow - This seems surprisingly strong when used with two-handed weapons. What about just giving Intelligence modifier on damage rolls?

    Improved Deadly Blow - Not a huge fan, see above.

    Ultimate Bag of Tricks - Shouldn't this use a toolkit charge?

    Peerless Expertise - This might be too strong combined with Expertise. Then again, it is just for skill checks, so I don't know.


    Spoiler: Vocation Features
    Show
    Preventative Medicine - This seems a little strong to grant so much regeneration, not to mention there's the potential bookkeeping for an hour. Perhaps it cures them of disease / poison, grants them resistance to one "natural" (fire, cold, lightning, thunder, or acid) damage type, and regeneration for 1 minute? Resistance for 1 hour and a burst of healing? You could maybe even give it multiple uses if you weaken it? It's good to have a strong feature here, but I think you can simplify it.

    I like the new Quartermaster mostly, but I do have a few comments about its features.

    Only the Finest - It feels a little wonky to track certain toolkit charges separately and not have them be refreshable. I would just say that the +1 bonus lasts until the end of your next long rest to simplify the language. Or, and here's a really out there idea, take away the +1 and allow for changing the damage type--spend 1 charge for each weapon / ammo bundle affected, and it can be adamantine, silvered, bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You could even have these count as magical and just not have the bonus. It's a lesser effect, but you can fluff it as switching out blades / weapon heads / adding spikes / whatever, and it's something new.

    Marching on Your Stomach - Eh, this is a lot better, but I think I'd take the bonus movement speed off. Pretty powerful, and this is an easy buff to get.

    Dedicated to Knowledge - A cantrip might be good here. Could even make it a non-magical ability and give a list of possible features (like a choice between a mundane Firebolt, Friends, Light, or Guidance, maybe?)

    Academic Resource - Not bad, but it almost seems to make the Scholar background feature redundant (maybe also rename to Academic, now that I think about it). Maybe advantage on an Intelligence check?

    Empathetic Intuition - I'm thinking some kind of ability check to reduce an opponent's damage against you. Or, this could even be a 1/3 casting archetype, picking up some minor magical abilities and a few ribbon effects at the appropriate levels. Dunno if you want to go that route, though.

    Valet is pretty hilarious.

    Impeccable Service - It's probably fine to have this take only 1 charge, though I'd take off the Professional level from its reduction. I kind of like slightly weaker effects that you can use more often--gives more decisions to make and lets a player feel like he or she is really using the class.

    Gentle Encouragement - This seems wonky. Are you supposed to be adding your modifier to their roll with a bonus action on your turn? The other side of it is also probably more complex than it should be.

    Ahaha, the others are great though. Almost wonder if You Rang, Sir? might just be a massive bonus to movement speed to make it less explicitly magical. Surely, Sir, Not That Hat? can probably last until the next long rest.



    It's getting there. Overall, I still like this concept and this class.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ninja_Prawn's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I'm not trying to step on Flashy's toes, but I have a few responses to those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Deadly Blow - This seems surprisingly strong when used with two-handed weapons. What about just giving Intelligence modifier on damage rolls?

    Improved Deadly Blow - Not a huge fan, see above.
    Deadly Blow is Extra Attack by any other name. This feature is the only thing keeping this class on the power curve. And it has to wait 40% longer than Fighters do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Peerless Expertise - This might be too strong combined with Expertise. Then again, it is just for skill checks, so I don't know.
    A capstone should be strong! And it's only advantage. The marginal benefit of advantage is pretty low at the tail ends of the curve, plus it's fairly easy to get from other things.

    Maybe it could be made into a once/short rest deal, if it's really a problem.
    Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!

    Spoiler: Acclaim
    Show
    Winner of Spellbrew Contest I & Subclass Contest II
    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That is the perfect ending. Thread done, Ninja_Prawn won.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We love our ninja prawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Gnoll View Post
    NinjaPrawn, you are my favourite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    Ninja you're like the forum's fairy godmother.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    This is why you're the best, Ninja Prawn.

    A Faerie Affair

    Homebrew: Sig, MHP

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cleveland, MS
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Deadly Blow is Extra Attack by any other name. This feature is the only thing keeping this class on the power curve. And it has to wait 40% longer than Fighters do.

    A capstone should be strong! And it's only advantage. The marginal benefit of advantage is pretty low at the tail ends of the curve, plus it's fairly easy to get from other things.

    Maybe it could be made into a once/short rest deal, if it's really a problem.
    Sure, but it's not supposed to be a combat class, really. Adding Intelligence modifier is almost like adding another d8 or d10 (but a consistent value) if you have an 18 or 20 in it by that point, and it seems to fit the flavor better. I think of this class as using supportive type weapons and not big heavy ones--Intelligence modifier is a huge boost to, say, a dagger (compared with Deadly Blow) but not so much for a greataxe. That feels better to me.

    Yeah...just not sure I actually like the capstone, really. Most aren't so focused on the interaction side, but maybe that's okay for this class.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I like it. I wish I could give suggestions for Scholar but none are coming to mind right now.

    I kind of wish there were more actual toolkit features, as in things you pulled out of your toolkit and used, right now the toolkit points are used to power other features, but aren't really related to your toolkit itself, and the 3 you get at first level won't really scale up to higher level.

    I would almost suggest another Vocation if you ever have the time, call it Tinkerer or something, which focuses on giving lots of cool abilities built around the toolkit itself. Gaining a larger multitude of things they can do with their toolkit, but with each option being a little less powerful then equivalent level ability of the other vocations; sacrificing raw power for versatility to get a larger 'batman's belt' of skills so you might have the right one at any given time. Of course that's a bit of work to do on top of an already well written class so I'm guessing it's not on the top of your priority list right now :)


    On the Physician vocation (I'm a healer a heart, I have to check that one out first) I like it, some minor things though.

    For Wake The Dead, Your version lacks some of the standard warding for raise dead spells. I imagine you would want to add most of the description from raise dead, which seems most in keeping with the intent and fluff of this ability.

    You may also want to add the part about lowering their ability score when their revived to stay in keeping with other similar affects.


    I mostly like Doctor's bag, but with one complaint. It's not about power, just mechanics & fun. The optimal way to use it is to save up all your charges until whoever is playing your tank is nearly dead then spend an action to heal them to full, to get the most out of your turn economy, if your not using most of your charges your wasting an action, and if you are using the action anyways you might as well use as many charges as possible to get the most out of your spent action. That means either this ability isn't worth using at all because the turn is to valuable to waste, or when it *is* used it expends all your charges and leaves you with nothing else you can do until your next rest. By expanding all your resources it takes a little of the fun away from playing by removing options available to you.

    I'm not saying anything has to be done here, it's a minor issue. But I thought that it may be worth having a cap on this, if for no other reason then to ensure that a physician might have charges left after they use it. At about this the same level they get this a cleric gets Heal which heals for 10 per spell level and fills a 6th level spell slot, so perhaps consider using Heal as a basis for capping it's max throughput (6-7 toolkit charges when you get it, with max charges expended going up at roughly the rate the cleric gains spell levels, or slightly faster)? If you feel that makes it too weak I would suggest adding a small boost either to the amount it heals per charge or just a flat boost to healing done when used. I actually kind of like a small flat amount of healing done any time you use this, to help justify 'wasting' an action on multiple uses by giving a small token amount of healing to make up for the lost action. However, you would have to preventing individuals from exploiting it after a battle by claiming they used the ability 10 separate times to get that flat boost added to each expanded charge, so if you add flat healing it should either not work in combat, or they should only get the bonus once no matter how many charges are used out of combat. So something like:

    Doctor's Bag
    At 13th level your toolkit is stocked well beyond the scope of ordinary medics or surgeons. Equipped with a wide range of dressings, herbs, and salves designed for rapid aid of all manner of life threatening wound, as well as drugs and surgical tools suitable for mending older injuries, you're equipped to treat any ailment your allies may face. You can use use your action to expend a number of toolkit charges up to 1/2 your maximum toolkit charges, rounded up. A creature of your choosing within 5 feet recovers 10 hit points for each charge expended in this way. In addition if you target a creature who lost hp within the last round you may perform addition first aid, healing the creature for an additional number of hit points equal to equal one roll of your Panacea die, or the amount of HP the creature lost this round, whichever is lower.

    Okay, I had a really hard time coming up with the right words to make the fluff sound right, but I think you get the idea even if it could be worded better. I don't guarantee the exact die value are right either. The big thing is to reward, or at least not punish as much, using fewer then maximum charges with Doctor's bag. I kind of like the fluff idea of justifying giving the bonus in combat only by claiming it's due to treating a wound immediately after it happens, but not sure if one round would be too limiting. Anyways. Up to you how you think it's best implemented.
    Last edited by dsollen; 2015-12-04 at 08:36 PM.
    trolling forums since 200&&&&lvl 65 cleric in everquest, Bonanar \'tank killer\' Splitz

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    First of all thanks again to everyone for the ongoing commentary. It's really profoundly helpful.

    Spoiler: Ivellius
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Deep Pockets - I think I would make this be something you do after taking a long rest, recharging after a long rest. You can fluff it as spending time tinkering with the stuff in your toolkit to find / hammer / craft what it is you need.
    That probably is the best feature to shift over to a long rest since the class is too short rest focused as written. Updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Secondary Equipment - Maybe allow this to be used on an ally as well?
    Sure, why not. It's supposed to be a support class after all! Updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Deadly Blow - This seems surprisingly strong when used with two-handed weapons. What about just giving Intelligence modifier on damage rolls?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Sure, but it's not supposed to be a combat class, really. Adding Intelligence modifier is almost like adding another d8 or d10 (but a consistent value) if you have an 18 or 20 in it by that point, and it seems to fit the flavor better. I think of this class as using supportive type weapons and not big heavy ones--Intelligence modifier is a huge boost to, say, a dagger (compared with Deadly Blow) but not so much for a greataxe. That feels better to me.
    You've raised some excellent points, and this is something I've gone back and forth on for ages. The class needs some kind of damage scaling, and neither extra attacks nor cantrips are really acceptable. You're right that +int modifier is about as effective, but I originally decided against it because I didn't want to make literally every class feature int dependent. I also generally think features that let you roll a fistful of dice are more fun than features that add static modifiers. I settled on Deadly Blow as a sort of "martial's cantrip" that scales existing attack options without adding additional attacks. It also bears a certain amount of similarity to the Cleric's Divine Strike which is all to the good since that's not far from where I want the class's DPR to be.
    In my earliest drafts the Professional Leadership die was the minimum damage die for weapon rolls, largely because I wanted to enable exactly the kind of daggers/handaxe build
    you're talking about. In the end I scrapped it when I realized there was no functional difference between that feature and just giving the class martial weapon proficiency, which was something I wasn't interested in doing. I also faintly like that deadly blow gives the Quartermaster a certain optional damage edge simply because they have access to harder hitting weapons. In the end I gave the class as a whole heavy crossbow proficiency so that they'd have something that scaled properly with the deadly blow feature, but I admit it's a stopgap.

    The thing to do may be to just make Deadly Blow and Improved Deadly Blow grant +1d10 and +2d10 of the weapon's existing damage type rather than futzing with weapon based scaling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Ultimate Bag of Tricks - Shouldn't this use a toolkit charge?
    Yup! Thanks for catching it. Updated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Peerless Expertise - This might be too strong combined with Expertise. Then again, it is just for skill checks, so I don't know.
    Honestly having never played at max level I have no idea how powerful this is. It's maybe too much/too out of combat focused, but I liked the idea. There's no point in originality for originality's sake though, so I could easily switch it to a version of the warlock capstone where you spend a minute or two restocking the toolkit between rests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Preventative Medicine - This seems a little strong to grant so much regeneration, not to mention there's the potential bookkeeping for an hour. Perhaps it cures them of disease / poison, grants them resistance to one "natural" (fire, cold, lightning, thunder, or acid) damage type, and regeneration for 1 minute? Resistance for 1 hour and a burst of healing? You could maybe even give it multiple uses if you weaken it? It's good to have a strong feature here, but I think you can simplify it.
    Yeah it's too much as written. I'm thinking I'll update it to restore only a single hit point at the start of a round (as with the Regeneration spell) and grant resistance to poison damage and advantage on saving throws against poison for the hour duration. Does that seem more appropriate, or is the burst of healing and ongoing regeneration potentially too much?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Only the Finest - It feels a little wonky to track certain toolkit charges separately and not have them be refreshable. I would just say that the +1 bonus lasts until the end of your next long rest to simplify the language. Or, and here's a really out there idea, take away the +1 and allow for changing the damage type--spend 1 charge for each weapon / ammo bundle affected, and it can be adamantine, silvered, bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You could even have these count as magical and just not have the bonus. It's a lesser effect, but you can fluff it as switching out blades / weapon heads / adding spikes / whatever, and it's something new.
    So I'm pretty married to the idea that the Quartermaster should at some point get an ability that lets it grant strict numeric combat bonuses. The Physician, Quartermaster and Scholar are intended to allow Professionals to specialize into what I see as the three primary support class roles: healing, group buffing, divination. Valet sort of crept in as a half-joke that got increasingly serious and wound up as a sort of weird symbiote subclass. In order for the Quartermaster to work in its intended role it needs to at some point get an ability that's halfway competitive with the big low level buff spells (Bless, Elemental Weapon, Haste, etc). It doesn't need to be able to actually match any of the low level spells (the class makes up for it with battlefield control options that are largely at will), but it needs something in the same general category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Marching on Your Stomach - Eh, this is a lot better, but I think I'd take the bonus movement speed off. Pretty powerful, and this is an easy buff to get.
    Is +5' of movement speed for 8 hours really too much for a 17th level class feature? I'm open to changing it, but it didn't seem too totally outrageous to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Academic Resource - Not bad, but it almost seems to make the Scholar background feature redundant (maybe also rename to Academic, now that I think about it). Maybe advantage on an Intelligence check?
    That is an incredibly good point, which makes me sad because it's the only thing I've been able to come up with for the scholar that I actively liked. My big problem is that I'm trying to find a mundane way to replace a lot of low level divination, and it's sort of challenging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Empathetic Intuition - I'm thinking some kind of ability check to reduce an opponent's damage against you. Or, this could even be a 1/3 casting archetype, picking up some minor magical abilities and a few ribbon effects at the appropriate levels. Dunno if you want to go that route, though.
    It was originally going to be a sort of Zone of Truth stand in using opposed charisma checks but I couldn't find a wording I liked and it was too niche an ability anyway so I just left the name and moved on.

    I've seriously considered making the scholar a divine 1/3 caster a couple of times, but I don't want to have to resort to that on what's supposed to be an all mundane class until I'm really completely stumped. It also gets either too blasty or steps on the toes of one of the other vocations almost instantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Impeccable Service - It's probably fine to have this take only 1 charge, though I'd take off the Professional level from its reduction. I kind of like slightly weaker effects that you can use more often--gives more decisions to make and lets a player feel like he or she is really using the class.
    Really good point about weaker effects that you can use more often. Updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Gentle Encouragement - This seems wonky. Are you supposed to be adding your modifier to their roll with a bonus action on your turn? The other side of it is also probably more complex than it should be.
    The whole thing is dreadfully over-complex and needs to be changed. The idea was that you get two options: one that lets you use your reaction to add your int modifier when the attuned party member makes a saving throw and one that lets you use your reaction to add the attuned party members cha modifier when you make a saving throw. I just got way too into the idea that the various features should use the Valet's int and the party member's cha, and it ran away with me.

    Spoiler: dsollen
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    I kind of wish there were more actual toolkit features, as in things you pulled out of your toolkit and used, right now the toolkit points are used to power other features, but aren't really related to your toolkit itself, and the 3 you get at first level won't really scale up to higher level.
    This is a really interesting point. As is the only real feature that relates to the toolkit itself is the Deep Pockets feature. Arguably the Secondary Equipment feature, though that's not explicit. Your idea about a Tinkerer subclass that sort of treats the bag itself as the power source could be a lot of fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    For Wake The Dead, Your version lacks some of the standard warding for raise dead spells. I imagine you would want to add most of the description from raise dead, which seems most in keeping with the intent and fluff of this ability.

    You may also want to add the part about lowering their ability score when their revived to stay in keeping with other similar affects.
    So for some reason I just didn't realize those riders were in the original Raise Dead spell. Thanks for catching this, I've added them all back in.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    All the excellent Doctor's Bag commentary
    Your analysis of this was so helpful, thank you so much. I had originally just written it out as something to make the Physician competitive at the Heal stage of play, but your point about implicitly rewarding saving up the toolkit points for supremely big heals is an excellent one. Adding a feature that tugs the Physician towards preferentially healing smaller amounts in combat makes the play-style a little more active in a way I really like. I have copied much of your language into the feature, though I slightly simplified the way the first aid portion of the works.
    Last edited by Flashy; 2015-12-05 at 05:03 AM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ninja_Prawn's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    UK

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Re: class features making background features redundant.

    I don't know about other people, but when I DM, I basically ignore background features. I see them more as plot hooks than tools in the PCs' armouries. Therefore, I'd argue that it's fine for a class feature to make a background feature redundant. Cf. Ranger & Outlander.
    Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!

    Spoiler: Acclaim
    Show
    Winner of Spellbrew Contest I & Subclass Contest II
    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That is the perfect ending. Thread done, Ninja_Prawn won.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We love our ninja prawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Gnoll View Post
    NinjaPrawn, you are my favourite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    Ninja you're like the forum's fairy godmother.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    This is why you're the best, Ninja Prawn.

    A Faerie Affair

    Homebrew: Sig, MHP

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Re: class features making background features redundant.

    I don't know about other people, but when I DM, I basically ignore background features. I see them more as plot hooks than tools in the PCs' armouries. Therefore, I'd argue that it's fine for a class feature to make a background feature redundant. Cf. Ranger & Outlander.
    I'll keep that scholar feature then. I really do like it quite a bit.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cleveland, MS
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Some responses, then! This was one of my favorite classes out of this contest, and I'm happy to be a part of talking through it.

    Spoiler: Quotes spoilered for length
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Flashy View Post
    First of all thanks again to everyone for the ongoing commentary. It's really profoundly helpful. [...]

    The thing to do may be to just make Deadly Blow and Improved Deadly Blow grant +1d10 and +2d10 of the weapon's existing damage type rather than futzing with weapon based scaling. [...]

    Honestly having never played at max level I have no idea how powerful this is. It's maybe too much/too out of combat focused, but I liked the idea. There's no point in originality for originality's sake though, so I could easily switch it to a version of the warlock capstone where you spend a minute or two restocking the toolkit between rests.

    [...]

    Yeah it's too much as written. I'm thinking I'll update it to restore only a single hit point at the start of a round (as with the Regeneration spell) and grant resistance to poison damage and advantage on saving throws against poison for the hour duration. Does that seem more appropriate, or is the burst of healing and ongoing regeneration potentially too much?

    So I'm pretty married to the idea that the Quartermaster should at some point get an ability that lets it grant strict numeric combat bonuses. The Physician, Quartermaster and Scholar are intended to allow Professionals to specialize into what I see as the three primary support class roles: healing, group buffing, divination. Valet sort of crept in as a half-joke that got increasingly serious and wound up as a sort of weird symbiote subclass. In order for the Quartermaster to work in its intended role it needs to at some point get an ability that's halfway competitive with the big low level buff spells (Bless, Elemental Weapon, Haste, etc). It doesn't need to be able to actually match any of the low level spells (the class makes up for it with battlefield control options that are largely at will), but it needs something in the same general category.


    Is +5' of movement speed for 8 hours really too much for a 17th level class feature? I'm open to changing it, but it didn't seem too totally outrageous to me.

    That is an incredibly good point, which makes me sad because it's the only thing I've been able to come up with for the scholar that I actively liked. My big problem is that I'm trying to find a mundane way to replace a lot of low level divination, and it's sort of challenging.

    [...]

    The whole thing is dreadfully over-complex and needs to be changed. The idea was that you get two options: one that lets you use your reaction to add your int modifier when the attuned party member makes a saving throw and one that lets you use your reaction to add the attuned party members cha modifier when you make a saving throw. I just got way too into the idea that the various features should use the Valet's int and the party member's cha, and it ran away with me.


    I think a flat damage die is fine for Deadly Blow / Improved Deadly Blow, though I'd probably make them d8s rather than d10s (in keeping with, say, Cleric and Paladin improvements).

    I guess another thing on getting advantage on all proficient skill checks is that it also doesn't scream "support" as effectively to me. It's probably not overpowered, though in combination with Expertise you basically get the option of almost never failing a couple of particular ability checks, but this seems more like something a Rogue subclass might have? The "restore toolkit" is probably a solid idea--maybe even giving a "power up" where you don't track toolkit charges for 1 minute or something. Would have to be balanced in combination with Doctor's Bag or other things that reward giving out more charges, though.

    Okay, I do understand on the Quartermaster bonus--I was partly thinking along the lines of simplifying / reducing the charges involved. I think I would still prefer it to be 1 charge per weapon affected (maybe 2 if the bonus is powerful enough). What do you think about changing the damage types involved? To me, that would be something really unusual (and memorable) to do. This also feels like the kind of ability that could improve at higher levels, but maybe taking more charges to do so.

    I'm just leery of long-term bonuses to movement speed. In extreme cases there might be potential shenanigans, and extra movement speed scales in this edition in a way that it didn't in 3e.

    I'll second dsollen on the idea of the Tinker as a subclass being an option, but we might be making too many subclasses at some point.

    With permission, I could take a stab at sketching out some vocation features for the Scholar or replacement Valet features (not entirely sure what you want to keep and don't at this point)? Could probably get to it later today, but I do understand if you don't want that kind of collaboration. Fresh ideas might help, though.

    Edit: I also don't think the Scholar feature you have is bad, but what if someone wants that subclass with the Sage background? They might feel as though they're wasting it, when they should have some natural cohesion.
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2015-12-05 at 09:16 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    This is cool and flavorful and I will definitely come back and give it the time it deserves when I have a moment, but off the cuff, one thing sticks out to me:

    Deadly Blow is weak as all getout on your turn, adding at best 7 damage compared to the 14ish of a 2h fighter or pally's Extra Attack or the 10.5 the rogue has from SA by then, but it gives the Professional potentially the best featless opportunity attack in the game (depends how good your rogue is at getting SA on off-turns). That seems oddly appropriate to me, was it intended?

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Deadly Blow is weak as all getout on your turn, adding at best 7 damage compared to the 14ish of a 2h fighter or pally's Extra Attack or the 10.5 the rogue has from SA by then, but it gives the Professional potentially the best featless opportunity attack in the game (depends how good your rogue is at getting SA on off-turns). That seems oddly appropriate to me, was it intended?
    Largely, yes. I never intended them to outshine the rogue, but I'm firmly of the opinion that a support class should have some fundamental synergy with other classes. You don't want the character to be just sitting around improving other people, you want the other people to have easy ways to make the support class shine too. Putting the Professional in a position to get strong opportunity attacks is a reasonable way to do that.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I'm glad you liked my suggestions.

    For Doctor's bag I realized later that tying the first aid feature to a bonus action felt very natural, and nothing else in the class provides bonus actions so it's not as if your going to lack bonus actions to spend on it. Of course making it a bonus action does lower it's power slightly since it can conflict with other bonus actions if the professional can use them, and to be honest the first aid ability isn't that fantastic at upper levels to begin with unless you increased it's power somehow.

    Looking at path of the healer, I would clarify the healing die. It says he heals for 1d6 but that his heals always follow the progression of an ability that starts at d8. I'm sure your intent is the first time he gets professional leadership his healing die goes up, but I would make it clearer.

    Looking at path of the healer, I'm not sure it's balanced I stress not sure because I don't own the books to look up the spell slot progression for clerics so I'm speaking a little blind, basing this on my 3.5 knowledge and what I know of 5e changes. I'm comparing the Professional to a healing focused cleric.

    At 1st level Path of the healer heals 1D6 + int modifier, where as cure wounds healds 1D8+ wis modifier for a cleric, so it already heals less. The cleric gets about the same or fewer casts depending on your modifiers. Not bad.

    Now look at later levels. by 7th level your still healing with 1d8 + int modifier, same as cure modifier. you may have earned an extra 'cast' by boosting your int..maybe. Lets say you get 4 uses of this ability.

    if a cleric uses just cure wounds he has about 7 casts minimum, without factoring in the extra spells for his wisdom, but some are higher level slots meaning more healing. He gets to heal about 20 D8 worth of hp lost with his spell slots once you factor in his higher spell slots healing for more. Your still limited to 4d8 of healing a day. The cleric can do more healing with just his level 1 & 2 spell slots while leaving his higher level spell slots available for all the things he would normally do in a battle. At level 12 lets say you manage 20 int and have 5 pancea uses. You are now at d10 dice, so an extra 5 hp more then you were able to heal with your D8 dice. At this point a cleric *still* only needs 5 of his lowest level spell slots to outpace you, since his level 2 slots are healing for 2d8 + modifier which makes up for your rolling D10. 5 of the clerics lowest spell slots are chump change to him, he outpaces your healing without a significant expenditure of his resources.

    The professional dice stop at level 13 with D12 too, so at that point you spells don't scale at all with level, beyond gaining more uses from increased int. The Panacea become increasingly weaker as the cleric gains spells much faster then you gain uses per day and his spells have very good scaling which you lack.

    However at 13 you now have 2 free Heal spells per short rest. This makes you pretty powerful a healer for awhile so long as there are a number of short rests. Too powerful potentially, if your team does 2 or 3 short rests your ungodly powerful at level 13 compared to a cleric, who can't dream of managing the equivalent of 4-6 of his most powerful spell slot a day even before you break out your (now kind of weak) pancea and other class features.

    Then as you level up to 19 or so you still have two Heal per short rests and panacea who's power is now mostly a joke. Your probably pretty weak, unless you get in lots of rests.


    Basically, the scaling feels off here two power spikes at lvl 1 and 13, with level 13 being potentially way to powerful, but other level your power just keeps dropping. Worse, after 13 all your power is tied into short rests in a way that makes your really annoying to balance. At 13 your GM is going to be denying short rests because your too game breaking if you are allowed multiple.

    I can't give numbers for balancing, I don't even have the full numbers on cleric spell slots to draw a comparison. However, my general feeling is that it may be best to increase the power of Panacea while modifying Doctor's Bag to not be quite as depending on number of short rests to mess with the balance scale.

    My suggestion would be to craft Panacea to be able to manage a throughput that rivals what non-healbot clerics usually do with their worthless low level spells, but compensate with this throughput by realizing that Pancea is only really useful outside of combat, due to how low the heal per action is at upper levels. Fluff wise it really seems like non-magic healing should require more time spent out of combat. I think I would consider adding a number of uses for Panacea equal to say 1/2 your level or so to allow it's uses to scale up enough to make pancea stay somewhat relevant; though I won't swear that is the right number.

    As to the Doctor's bag, if we were looking only at the Physical profession my advice would be to change how charges were generated, so that you regain a certain number of toolbar uses per short rest instead of all of them; but that goes against your stated goal of the class and, besides which, I'm not sure how that would affect other professions abilities. If you don't like that I would suggest considering making the heal per toolkit charge lower, but boosting the 'first-aid' feature. Or better yet make 'first aid' work by applying a panacea as a bonus action for twice the regular panacea healing amount (so it is powered partially off of resources that renew only once a day).


    Finally, the Professional lacks an ability to cure poisons, which I would add to the existing Soldier of the oldest War class feature. Perhaps expand some higher level class feature to give him a way to remove some of the other obscure things that clerics often cure, like lost of limb or curses etc; though fluff wise it's hard to explain how he would cure it. Maybe that could be tied into his international reputation, if he is a physician he can easier find people to do such cures and can haggle down the price some, he can't do it himself but he can at least make it far less painful to do it.
    trolling forums since 200&&&&lvl 65 cleric in everquest, Bonanar \'tank killer\' Splitz

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    For the quartermaster, I would clarify the +1 enhancment ability a little more. Can it be used more then once (I assume no, but would say that exactly)? Does 5e put a cap on how strong a weapon a character is allowed to own? if so I would clarify that this +1 can go above that cap.

    The ability also risks being another strong-but-boring ability, since it ties up 5 charges when you only have 9 it halves the option available to you.

    Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like a toolkit recharge ability would be nice. Right now the charges are so low that they can be used up quickly, this is suppose to be balanced by a short rest but if you don't get them your our of cool things to do quickly. Maybe allowing some way to do a full defense option to restock part of your kit during battle. Or tie it into something like a provide aid action restocking the kit, some action that a support character may wish to do anyways rewarding his available charges.

    For Scholar Perhaps he could get some way to use charges to do the equivalent of counter spell, one charge per every 2 levels of spell he is countering?
    trolling forums since 200&&&&lvl 65 cleric in everquest, Bonanar \'tank killer\' Splitz

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Linklele!

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Skulker

    The Helpful Sneak-At first level, you gain proficiency in Stealth. In addition, you can Help another person Sneak as a bonus action, or Help up to your Intelligence modifier people Sneak as an action.

    Look That Way!-At fifth level, you may, as an action, expend a number of charges from your toolkit up to your Intelligence modifier. For each charge spent, nominate a foe within 60'-this foe has disadvantage on finding you or your allies, being distracted by various tools you've thrown.

    From The Shadows We Strike-At ninth level, you can hide again after striking a foe, and can spend toolkit charges to allow an ally to do so. In order to hide after striking a foe, you must have struck them from behind, and they must have been unaware of your presence to start. Any ally within 60' may do this as well, though each time they do so requires you to spend a toolkit charge.

    Better Part of Valour-At thirteenth level, as a bonus action, you may now use the Disengage action.

    Now You See Me-At seventeenth level, may turn invisible. You can cast Invisibility using three toolkit charges, or Greater Invisibility using five.




    As a reward for winning the base class contest, I present the Skulker, a new subclass for the Professional. Let me know how it feels compared to the other subclasses.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I got really caught up thinking about the physician. I thought up lots of variants to increase healing throughput while keeping a unique feel. However, it would take forever to write it and express all the variant options since I wasn't committed to one, and honesty i probably put too much thought into it.

    As a general rule I suggest increasing panacea available. Make Doctor's Bag use Panacea charges, for ever x toolkit charge you may apply one panacea charge + some extra bonus to the heal. Thus Doctor's bag is still limited by Panacea charges and thus maximum uses before long rest; to not make Doctor's Bag too dependent on short rests, but Doctor's bag still adds a bonus both in raw throughput and turn economy over Panacea charges directly.

    If you truly were interested I can give you a long list of options and variants to far more thoroughly analyze these two healing resources, how they can interact, and how to keep a strong and unique feel, and short rest focus, while keeping short rest being to game controlling. Frankly, i doubt you want the 5 page of options to pick from I could burden you with; thinking of this was how I killed a 20 minute car ride so I had time to get lots of variables; practically enough to create my own non-magic healing class on my own.
    trolling forums since 200&&&&lvl 65 cleric in everquest, Bonanar \'tank killer\' Splitz

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2015

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I read through most of it, and at first I wasn't sure about the valet archetype; after thinking about it though, A Valet Professional would be the perfect 2nd character in a linked backstory. I can see a near perfect emulation of Black Butler being done.

    Nice job on the custom class, consider finishing/polishing it.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Clauticus View Post
    I read through most of it, and at first I wasn't sure about the valet archetype; after thinking about it though, A Valet Professional would be the perfect 2nd character in a linked backstory. I can see a near perfect emulation of Black Butler being done.

    Nice job on the custom class, consider finishing/polishing it.
    Yeah, I have been frightfully busy and let this project sort of fall by the wayside. I do intent to give it a good polish and rework a couple of the features when I get a chance.

    Among other things I've been thinking of adding a Gardener archetype as a sort of poor man's druid.


    EDIT: Made some minor tweaks
    Last edited by Flashy; 2016-12-01 at 12:18 AM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Indy

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    I just came across this thread in your sig. I haven't looked at it detail yet but it's really quite good. I like options that speak to different play styles and are about more than new ways to maximize dpr.

    It reminded me that I had put together an expert class a while back - similar concept but fairly different execution. If I get the time, I'll drop in the flavor text and create a thread for it in homebrew.

    I also plan on coming back to this and might have comments later.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    After a long, long hiatus I'm finally updating this again. In fact it's been so long that I'm almost worried I'm breaking thread necromancy rules? Hopefully not.

    On the off chance that there's anyone who still remembers when this was first posted I'll put a brief summary of changes below. Regardless, I'll be incredibly grateful for any thoughts people have.

    Spoiler: Changes
    Show

    • Changed a couple of saving throws around. Didn't make a ton of sense that targets were making a Con save against Blinding Spray.
    • Professional leadership now replaces a single damage die instead of the rolled damage dice total. Under the previous rules it was obsolete the moment anyone's damage started to scale at all.
    • Rebalanced some of the toolkit point costs. I have no idea why I thought 1 point was balanced for Ultimate Bag of Tricks.
    • Replaced the 7th level feature with Itinerant Expert, which allows a professional to choose one enhanced movement ability instead of swapping back and forth between climb and swim with bad fluff.
    • Rebalanced the Physician vocation. Gets harder healing and leans more directly on the panacea ability. Might be too strong a dip for wizards now.
    • Finished the Scholar. Later abilities might be a little too powerful?
    • Added JNA's Skulker archetype to the original post.
    • Fixed SO many typos, but there are probably still dozens.

    Last edited by Flashy; 2016-12-01 at 02:07 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashy View Post
    Any mount gains an extra 10' of movement per round so long as you are riding it.
    This needs a cap badly. As written, your mount gains 10' movement every 6 seconds, forever.

    Personally, I'd cap it at no more than half the mounts original movement speed.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014

    Default Re: The Professional: A mundane support class for 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    This needs a cap badly. As written, your mount gains 10' movement every 6 seconds, forever.

    Personally, I'd cap it at no more than half the mounts original movement speed.
    I will 100% clarify that. I meant it to be interpreted as "The speed of any creature you are riding increases by 10', but only as long as you're riding it."
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •