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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    For someone who so intently prays to the gods, she implies their will an awful lot by what's in front of her. Not good. Wonder what would have happened if she saw a pizza instead.

    Only one window left! Who will break it?

    Poor Roy *snif*.

    And glad you're not MIA Rich, I was understandably curious and a little concerned.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by motub View Post
    And so why are there specifically Paladins, or clerics that are dedicated to specific gods? Why are there even gods?

    Obviously there must be some difference between Lawful Good Paladin Miko and Lawful Good Fighter Roy that supercedes simple alignment issues.

    Those specific oaths must have some relevance, or why else do they exist?
    Miko was more lawful than good and vise-versa for ROy.
    Gods exist because DnD wants to reflect the world of mythos.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Hey, I just noticed that Hinjo's Junk still appears to be docked in the harbour.
    You're right. Looks like no one wanted to climb up on Hinjo's junk.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Y'know, I'm just waiting for Miko to rev up some kickin' blue psi-energy blades and start mauling things.

    "My life for Azure!"
    Look in your wallet, and you'll find nothing. That's how you know I've been around recently.

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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow, Miko's so far off the deep end she can't see where she jumped from. Fortunately, she's headed for the same room Soon Kim's in (Guess we know how that last window's going to be broken). If anyone can drive some sense into Miko, it'll be the founder of the Sapphire Guard.

    Hopefully the 'package' discussed in the Hinjo's junk strip wasn't just a throwaway joke and will somehow give hope for the city, cause damn that thing's burning.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by motub View Post
    And so why are there specifically Paladins, or clerics that are dedicated to specific gods?
    Because the gods need people to act as their instruments in the material plane, and naturally they prefer people who share their general outlook on things.

    As far as paladins go, alignment is a real, tangible force in D&D, with real, concrete effects. Paladin abilities require, among other things, that the paladin not be tainted by the force that is Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub View Post
    Why are there even gods?
    Um... because there are? Why is there a New York City?

    Quote Originally Posted by motub View Post
    Obviously there must be some difference between Lawful Good Paladin Miko and Lawful Good Fighter Roy that supercedes simple alignment issues.
    Sure. Lawful Good Paladin Miko can lay on hands, Lawful Good Roy can't, because he's a fighter and she's a paladin.

    If subservience to gods were required for Good alignment, then Roy couldn't be Good at all, since I don't see him serving any deities.

    Quote Originally Posted by motub View Post
    Those specific oaths must have some relevance, or why else do they exist?
    They establish a connection between the god and the mortal servant, and they lay out the rules the god expects the servant to follow. As I said, gods want their servants to share the same general outlook, so their rules often mandate adhering to particular alignments; but the alignment definition is the source of the gods' rules, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Dausuul; 2007-06-05 at 09:10 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    You know, when I first read it, I didn't notice the crack in the bars (until Miko started wailing on it), I was thinking maybe, JUST MAYBE the Gods' silence might finally be getting through to her, but nope. Miko once again demostrates that she maxed out her ranks in Jump to Conclusions.

    Of course, maybe there is hope. She did, after all, correctly work out the identity of the intruder in the throne room and determine that that was a more important threat than her petty grudge against Roy. Then again, every time someone says there's hope for her, she just seems to get worse....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Wolf View Post
    2. Roy is going to be partially eaten by the vultures so when/if he is raised they have to use some special spell.
    Spoiler
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    I was already thinking that the cost of raising/resurrecting/whatever Roy will set the Order back enough that Haley's finally going to be forced to spill the beans about her father. Side-quest, ahoy!
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2007-06-05 at 09:13 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    <snip>

    ....It's the actions you take and the reasons you take them that determine your alignment.
    Well, she may be doing things that are bad, but according to her own VERY twisted logic, she is doing the will of her 12 gods. So her actions can be bad, just like killing the Bandit leader dad, but her intentions were for a greater good (debatably there, but at least by her standards they were).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    Stay Good? Miko isn't Good any more. Good is defined by respect for life and willingness to sacrifice to help others; Evil is defined by callous disregard for life and willingness to hurt others to satisfy your own desires. While Miko has not completely abandoned the principles of Good, she's also demonstrated a willingness to commit Evil; she has little regard for life at this point, and she's quite ready to hurt anyone who makes her upset, even though she still feels the need to come up with twisted justifications for her actions. Look at what she did to Hinjo.
    She believed Hinjo was in league with the OotS in an evil plot, so he deserved no special accord from her. And she may have little regard for life, but when she gets to the thrown room, she is likely to follow her current path, and that is protect the gate, even if she isn't wearing blue anymore. Why? Because she still thinks she has a duty, even if the 12 gods have taken away her special abilities. Although the stick still seems to be stuck in her

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    She only ever barely managed to adhere to the letter of Lawful Good in the first place. She's Neutral now and only wants a good hard shove to tip her into Evil.
    I completely agree on the barely Lawful good part, but I personally can't see her going totally blackguard, I can see her being lost in a spiritual and physical sense, but not Blackguard.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    You know, when I first read it, I didn't notice the crack in the bars (until Miko started wailing on it), I was thinking maybe, JUST MAYBE the Gods' silence might finally be getting through to her, but nope. Miko once again demostrates that she maxed out her ranks in Jump to Conclusions.
    I really find that skill funny...

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread


    It's good to see Miko again, she's my favourite antagonist when she isn't cutting old people in half.

    I don't know why people are saying this comic isn't funny. The last frame made me laugh quite a bit. Then again Roy's always been my least favourite of the important characters.

    The irony between the last two frames was also brilliant.

    Oh and I'm pretty sure if someone hit me over the head with a sheet of lead, set me on fire and stabbed me a bunch of times I'd wouldn't really like his friends either.

    I can see an exchange between OOTS and Miko near or in the throne room involving Hayley or Hinjo yelling at her about Roy's sacrifice when she says he deserved it.
    Last edited by wootdavid; 2007-06-05 at 09:15 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    «My city... My beautiful blue city...»

    Not so blue anymore. There's orange everywhere.
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubbykiller View Post
    I think Miko will grab the sapphire and escape while the others are fighting
    The sapphire can't be moved, because it is just sealing the Azure City rift. If she grabs it and runs then it would have pretty much the same effect as destroying the sapphire, as O-Chul was trying to do when Xykon paralysed him.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Die, Lich!

    Um... Follow the bouncing ball with Symbol of Insanity on it?

    That trick won't work on me. I'm already crazy!

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Oh boy this comic didn't make me like Miko any better. She's just digging that hole deeper and deeper for herself. And the last panel has definitly been one of the most powerful ones in a while. It really is a good comic.
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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The sapphire can't be moved, because it is just sealing the Azure City rift. If she grabs it and runs then it would have pretty much the same effect as destroying the sapphire, as O-Chul was trying to do when Xykon paralysed him.
    I think it has been said (in the comic) that moving the gem would be risky. That's not the same as saying it would outright open the gate.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    DruidGuy

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    biggrin Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Miko's delusions of being a divine instrument are going to be crushed when she goes into the throne room, cause Soon is gonna open a can divine ghost martyr wupp'n of her fallen-from-grace-self-inflatuated-fighter-without-the-bonus-feats-twisted-logic-holier-than-thou-palidan-wanna-be head!!

    After that we'll see a whole new dimension of crazed delusion painted in colours that only the insane can imagine. Can you say "Blackgaurd that thinks their a good guy?"

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAllNight View Post
    Well, she may be doing things that are bad, but according to her own VERY twisted logic, she is doing the will of her 12 gods. So her actions can be bad, just like killing the Bandit leader dad, but her intentions were for a greater good (debatably there, but at least by her standards they were).
    I see the argument "She thinks it's for a greater good" a lot in justifying why Miko is still Good. My answer is that you have to look at her real reasons for doing what she does, not the convoluted excuses she makes to herself.

    As Roy rather astutely points out, Miko ignores all possibilities in order to arrive at a preconceived conclusion that happens to support her existing emotional state. She's not a person who's genuinely trying to do the right thing and just making horrible mistakes. She's doing whatever she damn well wants to do, and twisting the facts around in her head until she can justify doing it.

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgercloak View Post
    Miko's delusions of being a divine instrument are going to be crushed when she goes into the throne room, cause Soon is gonna open a can divine ghost martyr wupp'n of her fallen-from-grace-self-inflatuated-fighter-without-the-bonus-feats-twisted-logic-holier-than-thou-palidan-wanna-be head!!

    After that we'll see a whole new dimension of crazed delusion painted in colours that only the insane can imagine. Can you say "Blackgaurd that thinks their a good guy?"
    As easily as sucubus paladin...

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    I am interested when the innocent, not so bright, overly prideful former paladin runs into the room to fight the brilliant, charismatic priest, and extermely charismatic lich and the room full of (to her eyes) apparent ghosts.. all members of the order who (in her eyes) betrayed her.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    It may be treading just a leetle bit close to discussion of real world religion but, I have known many Mikos in my life, especially in my time at Seminary.


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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Adeptus View Post
    I think it has been said (in the comic) that moving the gem would be risky. That's not the same as saying it would outright open the gate.
    Well, in comic 411 Hinjo says that moving the gem would risk opening the rift (at least we assume we was going to say rift, he got cut off by Belkar) in response to Roy asking why they didn't just move the gem out of the city to lure Xykon away. If it was too dangerous that they couldn't take the chance, even WITH an army of thirty thousand hobgoblins approaching, I can't see it ending well if Miko moves it.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
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    I was already thinking that the cost of raising/resurrecting/whatever Roy will set the Order back enough that Haley's finally going to be forced to spill the beans about her father. Side-quest, ahoy!
    Or things can get even worse:

    Spoiler
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    The LG associates with the warlord who holds Haley's father and they convince Haley to betray the order. Then Haley would join Miko and both of them would look for redemption as the Red & Beige team.


    Ok, my storytelling skills suck.
    Last edited by teratorn; 2007-06-05 at 09:48 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Northman View Post
    Die, Lich!

    Um... Follow the bouncing ball with Symbol of Insanity on it?

    That trick won't work on me. I'm already crazy!
    That's both hilarious and true.
    Allergy advice: posts may contain traces of sarcasm

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    You know what would really be funny...

    Spoiler
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    If it turns out that Miko's been right all along and the gods ARE giving her signs. You can imagine Miko being confused as to why people are suprised she was right.

    I mean, it's obvious the Gods are on her side, and everyone else was insane to even consider otherwise. /sarcasm
    Last edited by Zanaril; 2007-06-05 at 09:53 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    I see the argument "She thinks it's for a greater good" a lot in justifying why Miko is still Good. My answer is that you have to look at her real reasons for doing what she does, not the convoluted excuses she makes to herself.

    As Roy rather astutely points out, Miko ignores all possibilities in order to arrive at a preconceived conclusion that happens to support her existing emotional state. She's not a person who's genuinely trying to do the right thing and just making horrible mistakes. She's doing whatever she damn well wants to do, and twisting the facts around in her head until she can justify doing it.
    Even when she was a Paladin I had a hard time seeing her actions as wholly good, as in the Bandit Dad, she could have just knocked him out and left, it was his daughter who was the true bad one, and miko killed him in one swipe, she could have done something less evilly inclined.
    I try to see the real reasons she does something, but I also try to see it from her side as well. After all, doesn't she genuinely want to do what's right? Even if her horrible mistake is not seeing the error of her ways.
    I'm not saying she is a good person anymore, but she hasn't consciously done what she considers to be an evil act. Part of being truly evil is knowingly going against that which is good, otherwise she seems just highly misguided.
    And her conclusions are based on an absolute reasoning of the information she has at the time, to her there is no gray area, only good or evil.
    In short, your right, and I for some reason see things from too many angles, a curse of being an overanalyzer of things ::curses ranks in other people's perspectives::
    Last edited by DrivinAllNight; 2007-06-05 at 10:04 AM. Reason: misspelled word
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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    It drives me crazy the way Rich writes Miko's character. He develops an incredible sense of frustration on the part of the reader. How a silly stick figure comic can make you feel that way, I'll never know...well done rich.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by berrew View Post
    I took it as a reference to the Tesla song, "Signs". From the chorus:

    " Signs Signs
    Everywhere there's signs
    Blocking up the scenery
    Breaking up my mind
    Do this, don't do that
    Can't you read the sign"

    The implications of the song are: 1) Don't let signs run your life. 2) Anything can be read as a sign.
    It's not a Tesla song.

    Oh, sure, Tesla covered it - but it's not a Tesla song.

    /showingmyage

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighteer View Post
    What seems likely to me is that we are headed for a climactic confrontation in the throne room when all interested parties arrive more or less simultaneously.

    Spoiler
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    Redcloak and Xykon have expended a great deal of resources fighting the battle itself as well as Soon and his retinue of Deathless. This would ordinarily make them easy prey for either the full-strength OotS or Miko. But let's imagine the situation: The OotS overcome the hobgoblin henchmen and burst into the throne room just in time to see Xykon and Redcloak about to overcome the last of Soon's minions. They are about to charge into the fray when Miko shows up and sees all of the parties together. In her delusional state, it's now confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were all working together, and so she immediately attacks the OotS again, giving Xykon and Redcloak time to finish off Soon.
    This is so wrong that must be right. I think that whatever happens will be much like this.

    Spoiler
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    Even more fun points if Xykon can be bothered to bluff Miko into doing his job for him:

    *OotS enters the throne room as Xykon and RC are finishing up the Sapphire Guard.*
    *Miko enters soon after.*
    Miko: By the twelve gods! I knew you were working together! But even you, Shinjo!
    Xykon: Wait... what?
    RC: Sir, she somehow believes we're allied to them.
    Xykon: Oh. So, my, ahem, lackeys. Finish this beige nuisance while I perform my villainy here, wink wink.
    Halley: Hey, you just said the words wink wink! Do you really expect that she -
    Miko: OotS! Now you die! *charges*

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Miko once again demostrates that she maxed out her ranks in Jump to Conclusions.
    Is that a Wisdom or an Intelligence check?
    ... ... ... YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

  30. - Top - End - #150
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #460 - The Discussion Thread

    Am I the only one that was reminded strongly of Delenn's statement when Miko said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Miko
    My beautiful blue city...
    and I thought of the quote from Babylon 5: (quote from B5 Quote Database)
    Quote Originally Posted by Delenn
    I think of my beautiful city in flames, Lennier. The streets where I walked, the temples, the great crystal spires .. that sighed music whenever the wind touched them. I think of it, and I cry, Lennier.
    Not EXACTLY the same of course, and it doesn't even need to be a factor in writing (anybody would say similar words when looking over a burning hometown/city), but considering The Giant's connection to that series (his name is from it), it was something that popped into my head immediately as a fellow fan.


    But regardless, an interesting strip. I'm pretty disappointed in Miko. She has shown herself capable of evaluating things PAINFULLY logically at times, and then at other times she only sees what she wants to see. Very disappointing to me.

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