System that Models Bullet Wounds Realistically?

[Mr. Mask]

There was some system that modelled gunshot wounds pretty realistically, where they could hit your eye or your heart or your lung. I was trying to remember which one or ones I'm thinking of.

In your opinion, what system do you feel simulated gunshot wounds the best?

[legomaster00156]

I think Spoony talked about an Old West system like this.

[nyjastul69]

Aces & Eights uses a shot clock for hit locations.

[Arbane]

Phoenix Command?

[Crake]

There's a variant d20 system (i think it's called spycraft or something) where you have "Wounds" and "vitality". Vitality function much like hit points, but are a measure of your ability to evade and dodge, and over time become exhausted until you actually get shot. You get them just like you get hp in every other d20 system, hit dice etc etc. Wounds on the other hand remain a flat number throughout your career, and are equal to your constitution score.

Critical hits go straight to wounds, however, they require you spend an action dice to confirm (rather than rolling a second d20), so if you threaten a crit on like a sniper rifle that does 2d12+4 damage or something, against someone with 14con or the like there's a good chance that you can immediately take them out if you spend an action dice.

It's a pretty cool way to run it really, learned about it when playing the d20 stargate system, it uses a derivation of it.

[Eisenheim]

the One Roll Engine, which I encountered in Godlike, had pretty realistically deadly gunshots.

[hifidelity2]

GURPs has hit locations and allow you to target any specific location)
It is lethal from when guns are introduced until near future when armour and healing catch up with the weapons lethality

It does however have "blow through" so if shot hits a limb it may not kill you while still allowing it to blow off the limb

[AMFV]

The problem is that realistically bullet wounds are so complex as to be almost impossible to model... Does the bullet graze? Does the impact shatter a bone? Does the 5.56 round tumble around inside the body? Is an artery hit?

Some people have died from being shot in the foot, others have lived after having their heads shot clean through. I would say that something like Rolemaster tables would probably be the most accurate way to simulate that sort of thing, although I don't know if they had a version with guns. I mean it wouldn't be realistic, but offering hundreds of possible results to a single attack would be closer to the virtually infinite results that are present in real life.

[The Glyphstone]

You could probably adapt FATAL's injury tables...

[Arbane]

You could probably adapt FATAL's injury tables...

I think the pain and suffering is supposed to be for the characters, not the players.

[Mr. Mask]

Arbane: But what about the immersion?

I think Phoenix Command was one of or the RPG I was thinking of. Thanks!


AMFV: I see your point. I guess I'm wondering about what RPG possesses a large chart of possible wounds, portrayed realistically. I think Aces and Eights might've had a reasonable chart? I'll check if rolemaster has any firearm expansions.

Good to see you again.


Fidelity: GURPS is normally trustworthy for these sorts of things. I'll make sure to check it out in relation to guns. Know of any particular splatbooks I'd want to check out?


Crake: I heard of that one recently, actually. I'll really have to check it out. Thanks.

[goto124]

I think the pain and suffering is supposed to be for the characters, not the players.

Be glad I didn't figure the coffee machine out, or else I would be snorting Livanto up my nose

[Lorsa]

The problem is that realistically bullet wounds are so complex as to be almost impossible to model... Does the bullet graze? Does the impact shatter a bone? Does the 5.56 round tumble around inside the body? Is an artery hit?

Some people have died from being shot in the foot, others have lived after having their heads shot clean through. I would say that something like Rolemaster tables would probably be the most accurate way to simulate that sort of thing, although I don't know if they had a version with guns. I mean it wouldn't be realistic, but offering hundreds of possible results to a single attack would be closer to the virtually infinite results that are present in real life.

You have to love the complexity of real life, completely refusing our attempts of making a single system of rules, that could fit in a 500-page rulebook, to simulate it.

In any case, from what I remember of your history, you might be one of the better suited on this forum to construct something that at least has the appearance of reality.

[Freelance GM]

Although it may be a bit too over-the-top, Dark Heresy and the other 40k RPGs are my go-to for things like this, as the disgustingly vivid critical hit tables describe everything from grazing wounds to broken bones to head explosions.

The Impact tables used by most modern firearms in the game don't quite work for actual bullets, as they were written for weapons like Thunder Hammers, or really big rocks, but a minimal amount of DM improv can work around it. That being said, the Energy and Explosive tables are just fine for gruesome portrayals of grievous injury.

[hifidelity2]

Fidelity: GURPS is normally trustworthy for these sorts of things. I'll make sure to check it out in relation to guns. Know of any particular splatbooks I'd want to check out?

High Tech for weapons up to late 80's / 90's and Ultra Tech (for more exotic weapons)

[hifidelity2]

The problem is that realistically bullet wounds are so complex as to be almost impossible to model... Does the bullet graze? Does the impact shatter a bone? Does the 5.56 round tumble around inside the body? Is an artery hit?

Some people have died from being shot in the foot, others have lived after having their heads shot clean through. I would say that something like Rolemaster tables would probably be the most accurate way to simulate that sort of thing, although I don't know if they had a version with guns. I mean it wouldn't be realistic, but offering hundreds of possible results to a single attack would be closer to the virtually infinite results that are present in real life.

Thats what the Die and the hit / critical system is for
Using GURPS an modern SLR (IRRC- no access to books at work) does around 6d6 damage and a criticals for some body locations (of x3) so you can do between 6 and 108 damage

[Mr. Mask]

Thats what the Die and the hit / critical system is for
Using GURPS an modern SLR (IRRC- no access to books at work) does around 6d6 damage and a criticals for some body locations (of x3) so you can do between 6 and 108 damage

That sounds great for realism. To compare, what's the human HP range, barring supernatural power?

[Mr. Mask]

From what I could find, humans in GURPS have a maximum of about 14 HP? If so, 6 to 108 damage is really too much for an SLR. The average roll would be 21, with only a 3.6% chance of the very toughest human character not being incapacitated (I wish deer would go down in one shot like that).

[Kuroshima]

That sounds great for realism. To compare, what's the human HP range, barring supernatural power?

Baseline humans have 10 HP, and theoretical maximum for "realistic" humans could have 26 HP (I put it in quotes because that assumes ST 20, and that has many not so realistic consequences). Typical PCs will range in the 10-20, with 20 being quite extreme (it's a very important value, since it means you heal twice as fast) and rare.

From what I could find, humans in GURPS have a maximum of about 14 HP? If so, 6 to 108 damage is really too much for an SLR. The average roll would be 21, with only a 3.6% chance of the very toughest human character not being incapacitated (I wish deer would go down in one shot like that).

First, you've got to understand that GURPS HP is not like other systems' HP. If you have more than ⅓HP, you're not impaired in any way. If you're between 1 and ⅓HP, you slow down because of your injuries, that halves your movement and dodge (and evasive movement against bullets is represented as dodge, so it death spirals fast).

Once you go to 0 or less HP, you're still slowed by your injuries, but on top of it, you need to check for consciousness every round. This is a 3d6 roll under Health (HT) stat, and while baseline humans have 10, PDc will usually have 12 or more, and pile bonuses to it for specific circumstances (Being fit gives a +1 to pure HT rolls, such as consciousness and survival [more on that later], and you can be hard to subdue for a cheap bonus too).

At -HP, you get your first death check. You roll HT and if you fail, you die. If the failure was by 1 or 2, you don't die right away, you are mortally wounded and will die, barring very good medical intervention or magical/superscience healing/once in a million miraculous recoveries. You make a new death check at -2 HP, another at -3 HP and a final one at -4 HP. At -5 HP you die automatically. Your consciousness rolls are now penalized by how many death thresholds you've gone through.

This means that a standard HP human with 10 HP might take 59 points of injury without dying.

As for the example, the poster said he was going from memory. It's possible, but you need to understand a little bit more:
A FN FAL, 7.62×51mm rifle does 7d pi damage (the pi stands for piercing, and that's the damage type guns do. Piercing damage is further subdivided into small piercing, piercing, large piercing and huge piercing, depending on how large a hole the round makes. This multiplies damage to obtain injury by ×0.5, ×1, ×1.5 or ×2, unless you hit a location that has it's own rules). This means that a body shot (torso hit location) against an unarmored human does between 7 and 42 injury, with an average of 24.5. If the attack hits the vitals (a distinct hit location representing lungs, kidneys, liver, heart, etc..., it takes a -3 penalty on the attack to hit, and with some optional rules, can be hit on a ⅙ chance on torso hits), injury multiplier goes from ×1 (for pi damage), to ×3, resulting in 21 to 126 injury. A brain hit has an injury multiplier of ×4, resulting in even more gruesome effects. Mind you, this is for unarmored targets. An assault vest reduces damage (before it's multiplied by damage type and hit location) by 12, with trauma plates reducing it by an extra 23. This means that against an individual with such gear, the vitals shot that did 21-126 now does 0-21 (average 0.1, more than 99% of the hits do no damage).

Against a deer, your shotgun, assuming slugs, does 4d+4 pi++ (that is, huge piercing) damage. A typical 200 lbs deer has 12 HP and HT 12. A torso shot does 16-56 damage. A vitals shot does 24-81. A head shot does (including the skull DR2) 24-104. However, if the target is at over 100 yards (the 1/2 D range of the shotgun with slugs), damage is halved. Limb shots would do 6 points of damage and either cripple or destroy the limb.

If using the optional rules in High Tech, torso hits are capped at 2×HP damage if you're not using the bleeding rules, and to HP damage if you are. Vitals hits are not capped. This means that a torso hit on a deer will never do more than 12 HP damage unless you hit the vitals, but the deer will eventually fall unconscious and bleed to death.

[Cybren]

I was going to pretty much post everything Kuroshima did. GURPS is at the same time very lethal and very forgiving- which leads often to players going overboard on overcoming those safeguards with as much damage as possible, which then makes GURPS seem even more lethal

[hifidelity2]

As for the example, the poster said he was going from memory. It's possible, but you need to understand a little bit more:
A FN FAL, 7.62×51mm rifle does 7d pi damage (the pi stands for piercing, and that's the damage type guns do. Piercing damage is further subdivided into small piercing, piercing, large piercing and huge piercing, depending on how large a hole the round makes. This multiplies damage to obtain injury by ×0.5, ×1, ×1.5 or ×2, unless you hit a location that has it's own rules). This means that a body shot (torso hit location) against an unarmored human does between 7 and 42 injury, with an average of 24.5. If the attack hits the vitals (a distinct hit location representing lungs, kidneys, liver, heart, etc..., it takes a -3 penalty on the attack to hit, and with some optional rules, can be hit on a ⅙ chance on torso hits), injury multiplier goes from ×1 (for pi damage), to ×3, resulting in 21 to 126 injury. A brain hit has an injury multiplier of ×4, resulting in even more gruesome effects. Mind you, this is for unarmored targets. An assault vest reduces damage (before it's multiplied by damage type and hit location) by 12, with trauma plates reducing it by an extra 23. This means that against an individual with such gear, the vitals shot that did 21-126 now does 0-21 (average 0.1, more than 99% of the hits do no damage).

Thanks for expanding on my short post - with no access to books I had to be "general" about it

[gkathellar]

The thing is, trauma is far, far too complex to model realistically, and most anti-personnel bullets are extraordinarily traumatic. You have immediate questions of where the bullet hit, whether it damaged or became lodged in any bones, whether or not it exited, the velocity of the impact, how much fragmentation occurred, whether any clothing or other items became lodged in the wound, and so on and so forth. Is there any organ damage? What about major arteries and nerve clusters? Cartilage and tendons? Then you get to the complicated stuff: how long until shock sets in? Can the victim avoid hyperventilating? Do they have known or unknown defects (minor aneurysms or clots, for instance) that a bullet could aggravate, leading to heart attack or stroke? What about sepsis or other opportunistic infections?

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Realistic portrayal of wound trauma is virtually impossible for a game system. I'd not even try - instead, figure out what your players expect reality to look like, and cater to that.

[hifidelity2]

Another system that sort of makes a stab (no pun intended) at it is something like Spacemaster (Rolemaster / MERPG) in space

As that has (lots of ) critical tables it does an OK job of describing what the wound is and what it does to your character
This includes extra hits, bleeding, stunning, penalties to various skills etc up to Autodeath

[Arbane]

Another system that sort of makes a stab (no pun intended) at it is something like Spacemaster (Rolemaster / MERPG) in space

As that has (lots of ) critical tables it does an OK job of describing what the wound is and what it does to your character
This includes extra hits, bleeding, stunning, penalties to various skills etc up to Autodeath

Mind you, if it's a typical RoleMaster game, it ALSO has autodeath results for failure at ladder-climbing and tooth-brushing. (NO, I AM NOT AT ALL BITTER.)

[AMFV]

Mind you, if it's a typical RoleMaster game, it ALSO has autodeath results for failure at ladder-climbing and tooth-brushing. (NO, I AM NOT AT ALL BITTER.)

Maybe you shouldn't be so careless while practicing oral hygiene. 4 out of 5 dentists accidentally murder a patient during an average work day.

[hifidelity2]

Mind you, if it's a typical RoleMaster game, it ALSO has autodeath results for failure at ladder-climbing and tooth-brushing. (NO, I AM NOT AT ALL BITTER.)

Well if you will brush your teeth while climbing a ladder......

[Rakaydos]

Its less directly simulationist, but I like how Myriad Song handles damage.

Rather than being sacks of HP to be blasted through, it cares more about spike damage. 4 points of damage, after soak, will drop somone without the right saving gifts. But you can be hit for 1 damage a hundred times and not really care.
A hit with no damage sends the target reeling, costing them one of the two actions they w ould get on their turn.
One damage is a minor injury, something you can be banaged up at the end of combat and be fine...and also reeling, as above. Being hurt slows you down, offering your opponent more openings. In game terms, it simply adds one more damage to every attack against you.
Two damage is reeling, Hurt (if you arnt already, it doesnt stack), and Afraid. Afraid characters cannot attack, though the system allows "best defence is a good offence" counters when someone attacks you- afraid characters can still do that. Any proper badass has the gift to get rid of this status on their own, but anyone else needs a friend to spend a precius action convincing you to get your head in the game, or to break line of sight with all enemy and spend a turn psyching yourselves back up.
Three points of damage is all the above, plus a major injury. Mechanically, it works like Hurt, adding another damage to further attacks against you. But it takes weeks in game to heal- next combat your hurts are bandaged and your fear is passes, but your broken rib is still giving you that extra damage- and if you take 3 damage again, reset the healing track.
Four damage is dying, 5 damage is dead. PCs and plot-relevant NPCs get a gift to reduce this to Injured once a session- the one concession the system has to pc plot armor. Six or more damage is overkill, where someone dies so spectacularly that anyone nearby gains yhe afraid status just seeing it. Those PC plot saves will only reduce overkill to dying, and only if they havnt used it already- a good reason for a pc whos spent their plot armor to run away before something else goes wrong.

[Mr. Mask]

That's pretty neat. Thanks for mentioning it Rakaydos. I'll have to look into that one (reminds me of a shields system I came up with).