alternate PC races

[thatwolfguy]

in monster manual, there are some races like celestial, centaur, satyr, etc. that can be played as characters, and there are instructions to play the race as characters with skill/characteristic info, etc.

in "races of the <blank>" books, like "Races of the Wild" there are instructions for how to level up characters of these races from lvl 1, and on, like the one i saw was "centaur", even though in MM it only shows a centaur starting at 7hd.

what i'm wondering is, if there is any one reference book, or list, that lists all alternate PC races that have clear "play as a character" builds, or if the only way to find them is to pore through all of the "monster manuals" and "races of the <blank>" books

thanks

dave

[X15lm204]

Well, back in 3.0 there was Savage Species, which had basically everything possible in the MM, but it hasn't been updated and the general consensus seems to have been that it was horribly broken. More recently, I know Dragon has done articles on have dragon PCs, but that's all I can think of.

[Smiley_]

I can list off the Level Adjustment for some.

Kobold -
Orc Might be +1 depending on the DM
Goblin-
Lizardfolk +2
Minotaur +8
Ogre + 4
planetouched +1
Genasi + 1
Troglodyte + 2
Gnoll + 2
Werebear + 5

When in doubt, add the level adjustment listed to the CR of the creature for PCs and use the given level adjustment or CR for NPCs

[Rob Knotts]

Savage Species is basically what you're looking for. The fact that it was published before 3.5 isn't as much of an issue as the editorial policy WotC had for Level Adjustments. Basically, LA is a supposed to common-sense mechanic used for balancing non-human characters with abilities that give them an advantage as adventurers over regular PHB races(magical abilites, enhanced ability scores).

SvSp offers a lot of LA examples for you work from, but all of them were put into question after comments (I believe from Rich Redman) about WotC deciding to deliberately inflate LAs so that players would be more inclined to play normal PHB races. AFAIK the old WotC threads were lost when they switched to a new type of message board, and the only reference I was able to track down is second hand:

http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2006/04/...ments-too-high

[Tokiko Mima]

Werebear + 5

Lycanthropes are tricky and have a much higher level adjustment than is readily apparent. The MM lists the LA for all Lycanthropes as +2 for afflicted and +3 for natural. What it says in only one place is that the Level Adjustment is actually +2/+3 PLUS the Hit Dice of the Base Creature. So with a brown bear having 6 HD, a natural Werebear starts with a staggering LA of +9, and then adds any class levels to that.

On the bright side they do get their base animals BAB, Hit Die, skills, Feats and saves. This is why the level one Wearbear listed in the SRD has 62 hp. And I think any melee character would like to have a +16 Strength bonus in Hybrid/Bear form.

[Glyphic]

I can list off the Level Adjustment for some.

Kobold -
Orc Might be +1 depending on the DM
Goblin-
Lizardfolk +2
Minotaur +8
Ogre + 4
planetouched +1
Genasi + 1
Troglodyte + 2
Gnoll + 2
Werebear + 5

When in doubt, add the level adjustment listed to the CR of the creature for PCs and use the given level adjustment or CR for NPCs

I'm not certain, but I think you should re-read the rules on Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level. Your numbers here are abit off (lizardmen, have an LA of +1, but also have 2 hitdice of humanoid, making their ECL 3.)

Similar situations apply to Troglodye and Minotaur. Also, for wear bear, it matters if they were another class -afflicted- by were-disease, or if they started with the template.

[Smiley_]

That was about how close I could get off the top of my head.

Lizardfolk NPCs would have a +1 level adjustment, but for a character you would want to develop and and cultivate with above average stats would have a level advancement of +2. At least that's how I remember it.

[Counterpower]

I'm not certain, but I think you should re-read the rules on Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level. Your numbers here are abit off (lizardmen, have an LA of +1, but also have 2 hitdice of humanoid, making their ECL 3.)

Similar situations apply to Troglodye and Minotaur. Also, for wear bear, it matters if they were another class -afflicted- by were-disease, or if they started with the template.

Someone I know made that exact mistake. We created level 20 characters for some PvP action once, and he created a level 22 because he didn't realize that the lizardfolk HD had to be counted with the ECL.

And I beat him anyway.

[Rincewind]

in monster manual, there are some races like celestial, centaur, satyr, etc. that can be played as characters, and there are instructions to play the race as characters with skill/characteristic info, etc.

in "races of the <blank>" books, like "Races of the Wild" there are instructions for how to level up characters of these races from lvl 1, and on, like the one i saw was "centaur", even though in MM it only shows a centaur starting at 7hd.

what i'm wondering is, if there is any one reference book, or list, that lists all alternate PC races that have clear "play as a character" builds, or if the only way to find them is to pore through all of the "monster manuals" and "races of the <blank>" books

thanks

dave

Well, i don't know about a list, but i think there's a guide for figuring out ECLs in the Dungeon Master's Guide... Do some research :)

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Level adjustments, especially with some of your more can-of-worms questions, such as the aforementioned racial HD, is a hellish landscape of unending torment.

Essentially, there are very few 'survivable' builds which utilize creatures with more than +2 LA, with notable exceptions; these exceptions mostly being the result of poorly conceived monster abilities, or notorious min-maxing.

That said, to answer your question, to my knowledge there is no comprehensive listing of races that require a level adjustment; if such a list existed, it would almost certainly be on the wizards boards.

[Durendal]

This website lists alot of the alternate species that can be used as races.

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Races.pdf

[Stephen_E]

I'd note that Savage Species is a 3.5 book. Wizards says so.

Technically it is 3.25. It was intended to be 3.5, but was published before 3.5 was finished and missed some of the changes that occurred.
Re: Savage Species been "broken". This mostly refers to the Gesalt stuff and some of the feats. Some people think the prestige classes are also broken, but then I don't recall a single splat book that doesn't have people talking about "broken" prestige classes, so I don't think that has anything to do with flaws in the actual book.

The difficulty with creatures with LA adjustments and large numbers of racial HD are -
1) The "dead" levels of LA adjustment hurt to much over time. I'd recommend you give something like 2hps and 2 skill points, non stat adjusted, for each dead level, and allow level buy off. Note the chrarters keep the HPs and Skill points even if they later buy of the levels.

2) Racial HD give little flexibility to PC for extended periods of developement. This can be partly countered by allowing players to take class levels before completing all the racial levels. I'd suggest not allowing more than 50% before the racial levels have been completed.

3) LA adjustment and Racial dice are crippling to casters.
This is the hardest to manage. There are some feats that can in theory allow early entry into the dual caster prestige classes, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Heirophant, ecetre. Most GM disallow them. They should always be allowed for Lev adj/Racial HD mosnters who have a level adj + racial HD totaling 4+. In fact I'd be tempted to say that such characters should be automatically allowed entry with just one level in each of the appropriate classes, and if their natural abilities give them spellike abilities, these should be allowed to substitute for taking a level in a class that produces such spells. The PC will still not reach the heights of your standard race caster, but they will get enough spells at high enough levels, that they won't be completely gimped.

Stephen

[Fhaolan]

If I remember correctly, most of the statements about Savage Species being broken were centered around things *other* than the racial levels bit. I remember a lot of virtrol being flung at the Feral template, and the Anthropomorphic Animal template.

I personally didn't like the centaur racial levels, but centaurs are slightly different in my campaign anyway, so there's no way the authors of the book could 'win' in that case. :)

[Vodun]

If I remember correctly, most of the statements about Savage Species being broken were centered around things *other* than the racial levels bit. I remember a lot of virtrol being flung at the Feral template, and the Anthropomorphic Animal template.

I personally didn't like the centaur racial levels, but centaurs are slightly different in my campaign anyway, so there's no way the authors of the book could 'win' in that case. :)

They had a template actually called "anthropomorphic animal"?
Thats uh...yea. Wow.

[Armads]

Yes, they had one. And it was crazy. Their anthromorphic bat was Small, could fly, had +6 Wis, and a -4 strength penalty and a cha penalty.

[Callix]

Seriously though? Try a savage humanoid if your DM allows monsters. An Orc has a +0 LA (according to DMG), and a Bbn1 with a 16 roll in Str has 24 str when raging, 20 otherwise. Stuff skills. +10 damage with a greataxe, and power attack?
Similarly, a goblin rogue. Screw social skills, +12 Hide/ +12 Move Silently and Darkvision, with no feats used? Oh, and normal Int, +2 Dex? Sold.
Kobolds, on the other hand, deserve a -1 LA. A kobold should only be played for humourous effect.
Also, try some campaign settings for some flavour. Shifters from Eberron are fun and adaptible. Basically, don't bother with racial HD or LAs. They're not worth it, even when you get them.

[Devils_Advocate]

What it says in only one place is that the Level Adjustment is actually +2/+3 PLUS the Hit Dice of the Base Creature.

Bzzzzzt! WRONG. Level Adjustment and Racial Hit Dice are not the same thing. Racial hit dice are levels. They're actual levels in your creature type. For example, a lizardfolk has two levels of Humanoid. And these levels of Humanoid, they work just like levels of Wizard or Ranger or Fighter do. They give you BAB, they give you saves, they give you feats, they give you skills, they give you hit points. If you have racial hit dice, you get max hit points and quadruple skill points for your first racial hit die, but not for your first level in an actual PC class. Because that first racial hit die, that first level of Humanoid or whatever, that was your first character level, and your first level in, say, Fighter, wasn't. Racial hit dice don't give you any special class features, so they tend to suck compared to levels in actual PC classes, but that's part of the price you pay for playing a monster character, as is...

Level Adjustment! Level Adjustmensts are not levels. Your level adjustment is, rather, the number of levels that you give up because even after those sucky racial hit dice, you're still as powerful as a normal character several levels higher than you (at least in theory. Popular consensus is that a lot of monster races are over-LAed). So character with a LA of +3 does not have a character level 3 higher than his number of hit dice. He loses out on three levels. He does not get saves, skills, feats, BAB, hit points, etc. for his level adjustment. He gets jack, besides getting to play a more powerful race. His Level Adjustment is a penalty to balance that out.

Your character level, or total hit dice, is your racial hit dice plus class levels. Your Effective Character Level is your character level plus your level adjustment. ECL is used to determine what sort of challenges are appropriate to a character, what other characters he's roughly as powerful as (and thus that can appropriately work with him in the same party), how much XP he gets for an encounter, how much XP it takes him to level up, etc. It's his level for purposes of game balance, but that's pretty much it.

So, in conclusion, LA isn't actual levels. Racial hit dice are. They are very much not the same thing. The only thing they have in common is that they're both added together with class levels to determine ECL.

This has been a public service announcement.