Arcane Thesis

[StickMan]

Ok, I've been reading threads on Arcane Thesis, some boards am I getting that it reduces each metamagic spell that is applied to the spell. So if you use two or more on your arcane thesis spell each metamagic feat is reduced by one.

[Conjurer]

hmm... My understanding was that it reduced the level of all the metamagic spells added together by one... e.g. an extended, stilled Mage Armor would be a level 2 spell.

[Soepvork]

From the official FAQ

If a character with Arcane Thesis (Player’s Handbook
II, 74) applies multiple metamagic feats to the chosen spell,
is the spell’s slot reduced by one level, or by one level per
metamagic feat applied?
Arcane Thesis reduces the total spell level of a metamagicaffected
spell by one, regardless of the number of metamagic
feats applied. An empowered (+2 levels), still (+1 level), silent
(+1 level) fireball would be 6th level.

[Douglas]

If that's how the writers meant it, they need to issue errata. RAW, the reduction occurs "When you apply a metamagic feat", which happens once per feat applied.

[Rad]

I'm surprised by that FAQ as well, the rules seemed clear in the opposite direction...
maybe it is because the Wizards do not want to make errata and then pop them in as FAQs?

However that is a bit sad; I was almost considering the feat with the other ruling, but now it looks like... well... not on par with other feats out there, and you can always get so few of them. Let me know if anybody actually uses this anymore!

[ZeroNumerous]

In my games, I houserule Arcane Thesis to reduce INT Mod number of metamagic'd spell levels with a base minimum of zero. Otherwise, it's just not a great feat.

[melchizedek]

That would just make the feat great for wizards, and not that good for most other casters.

[ZeroNumerous]

As well as wu jen, beguilers, warmages, and duskblades..

Leaves Sorcerers in the lurch though.

[JaronK]

The FAQ is really an errata in disguise (which is annoying) but it's there because the authors of the feat didn't know about certain classes that really only cast specific spells a lot, such as the Shadowcraft Mage (who casts Silent Image as the majority of their spells). There were issues with making spells lower level by using metamagic (a Scorching Ray, with Arcane Thesis, could actually be in a lower level spell slot than normal by applying Energy Substitution and, technically, Eschew Materials to it).

JaronK

[Draz74]

The FAQ is really an errata in disguise (which is annoying) but it's there because the authors of the feat didn't know about certain classes that really only cast specific spells a lot, such as the Shadowcraft Mage (who casts Silent Image as the majority of their spells). There were issues with making spells lower level by using metamagic (a Scorching Ray, with Arcane Thesis, could actually be in a lower level spell slot than normal by applying Energy Substitution and, technically, Eschew Materials to it).

JaronK

How does Eschew Materials fit in? It's not a [Metamagic] feat in 3.5!

[Douglas]

Eschew Materials is a general feat, not metamagic. Add Cooperative Spell to Energy Substitution, however, and you could RAW cast Scorching Ray with a cantrip's spell slot.

[Emperor Tippy]

RAW Arcane Thesis applies to every metamagic feat applied and can actually reduce a spell below its original level.

The best ruling is that it applies to every feat but can't reduce below the original spell level.

The FAQ is full of **** and frankly a waste of space. It is outright wrong on RAW issues half the time. Some of the opinions in it make good houserules but overall, never believe anything it says.

[Stevenson]

From the official FAQ

So, if you were to use energy substitution on a 1st level spell (an orb, let's say), it would become a 0th level spell?

[Yechezkiel]

How does Eschew Materials fit in? It's not a [Metamagic] feat in 3.5!

There's an official version of Eschew Materials somewhere (printed after the PHB) that makes it so you actually have to prepare an "Eschew Materials" spell ahead of time and says something like "takes up a spell slot of the same level". I'll look for it, but it's BS cos it would change a simple enough general feat into another full round casting for Sorcerers.

[Yechezkiel]

There's an official version of Eschew Materials somewhere (printed after the PHB) that makes it so you actually have to prepare an "Eschew Materials" spell ahead of time and says something like "takes up a spell slot of the same level". I'll look for it, but it's BS cos it would change a simple enough general feat into another full round casting for Sorcerers.

Ok, as far as I can see Eschew Materials only appears as a [Metamagic] in 3.0 materials (DD, EL, FP, LD, Mag and originally in TB). It used to actually take up a spell slot of the same level or "0 levels higher" then the original spell. In 3.5 it is just a general feat and does not have to be set up ahead of time.

[Jasdoif]

So, if you were to use energy substitution on a 1st level spell (an orb, let's say), it would become a 0th level spell?

That's the subject of the next question in the FAQ.

Can the Arcane Thesis feat (Player’s Handbook II, 74) reduce a spell’s level below the normal level for the spell?

No.

[Douglas]

Once again, that is material that belongs in errata, not the FAQ. The actual text of the feat makes no mention of that limit and only errata can change the RAW.

For a really extreme example of abusing Arcane Thesis by RAW, take a look at this character I made for an arena competition. Note that for the two spells I took Arcane Thesis for, this character can apply every single metamagic feat he has with no increase in spell slot level. Quicken Spell is the only one that raises the slot level, and that's balanced out by Energy Substitution lowering it.