A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default what is made of "metal"

    It sounds like a silly question, but this just came up.
    I am looking at the Duergar FCB for
    Spoiler: Monk
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    Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0)

    Every description I can find related to a special material always says its material type but not if its made of metal or not. For example, an object made of glass clearly is not made of metal, and as such would not be subject to this FCB, but addy, cold iron, and the like, dispute being a metal based alloy or something of the sort seems to always be classed as its own type.

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    Red Fel's Avatar

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsondawn View Post
    It sounds like a silly question, but this just came up.
    I am looking at the Duergar FCB for
    Spoiler: Monk
    Show
    Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0)

    Every description I can find related to a special material always says its material type but not if its made of metal or not. For example, an object made of glass clearly is not made of metal, and as such would not be subject to this FCB, but addy, cold iron, and the like, dispute being a metal based alloy or something of the sort seems to always be classed as its own type.
    This sort of thing is basically a common-sense approach. Look over here, at the special materials list. Run down the list.

    Adamantine? That's a metal. Angelskin? That's the preserved skin of an angel; not a metal. Blood crystal? Well, it's a mineral; sort of somewhere between stone and metal. I'd let it count for the Duergar's ability. Bone? Not a metal. Bronze? Definitely metal.

    And so on. Common sense it. Most of these materials fall into one of three categories: animal, like leather or bone; vegetable, like Darkleaf Cloth or Darkwood; or mineral, like iron. There are a few that don't fall into any of those categories, like ice or vulcanized rubber. But most fall into one of the big three. If it falls into "mineral," it likely satisfies the Duergar FCB. Animal or vegetable, certainly not.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    *Has information vegetable, animal, and mineral.*
    Can you name the kings of England?
    Do you quote the fights historical
    from Marathon to Waterloo in order categorical?

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by FocusWolf413 View Post
    Can you name the kings of England?
    Do you quote the fights historical
    from Marathon to Waterloo in order categorical?
    Just for that, FocusWolf... Just for that...

    Requisition me... A beat!

    *ahem*

    I am the very model of a modern Evil Mastermind,
    I often bring whatever scheme you'll find has come to pass to mind.
    My exploits will be cited by tomorrow's best historian,
    And often come accompanied by chanting quite Gregorian.
    When making up my residence within my lovely fort'ress
    My methods range from quite hospitable to mostly torturous.
    About techniques of cruelty I am teeming with a lot o'news,
    And when it comes to executions, friend, you know I've got a noose!

    (And when it comes to executions, friend, you know he's got a noose!)


    ... Did I ask for assistance?

    *ahem*

    In short, in all the many realms and stories you are wont to find,
    I am the very model of a modern Evil Mastermind!


    And don't you forget it.
    Last edited by Red Fel; 2015-12-08 at 10:44 AM.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post

    Pure distilled awesomeness.
    There is a reason you are my favorite playgrounder. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    There is a reason you are my favorite playgrounder. Bravo, sir. Bravo.
    I need to start collecting comments like this. Not that my ego needs the help, but perhaps some people need to be reminded of it.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    I need to start collecting comments like this. Not that my ego needs the help, but perhaps some people need to be reminded of it.
    Isn't it what a signature is for ?

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetol View Post
    Isn't it what a signature is for ?
    At this point, mine is less a signature, and more an anthology.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsondawn View Post
    For example, an object made of glass clearly is not made of metal...
    I wouldn't be so sure.

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    I don't think "glassy metals" are glass any more than a "single crystal metal" is a crystal. All metals have "crystals" and "grains". Metals are not crystals by the common definition, nor should you make cereal out of them. Nor can you make windows out of my glassy eyes.

    In fact glassy metals are less brittle than other metals, not more brittle. Because a glassy structure is less brittle, but softer, than a crystalline structure. Nor are the more typical metals, crystalline metals, brittle like crystal.

    Yeah I would use common sense too. And stay far far away from semantics, since as you may have noticed already it can get pretty crazy.

    • clay: Can you make pottery out of it?
    • stone: Is it a rock? While a lot of crystals are super pure stones, I would not include them. Because this is D&D not geology class. I do try to default to science when there is no rule for something, but here I think it would be better to default to the common definition first. Yes this can get hairy with obsidian, quartz and granite. But I'd try not to think about that too much, and flip a coin if you honestly can't tell. Or if your DM wants to include crystal then I can understand that.
    • metal: I would include fancy metals because they are still metals. Including mithral and adamantine.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2015-12-09 at 12:50 AM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Use the chemical definition. I know, i know, science and D&D should not mix. Yet, the chemical definition makes an astounding amount of sense:

    A substance with high electrical conductivity, luster, and malleability, which readily loses electrons to form positive ions (cations). Metals are otherwise defined according to their position on the Periodic Table, including groupings as alkali metals, alkaline earth metals, transition metals, and rare earth metals.
    or

    A metal (from Greek μέταλλον métallon, "mine, quarry, metal"[1][2]) is a material (an element, compound, or alloy) that is typically hard, opaque, shiny, and has good electrical and thermal conductivity. Metals are generally malleable — that is, they can be hammered or pressed permanently out of shape without breaking or cracking — as well as fusible (able to be fused or melted) and ductile (able to be drawn out into a thin wire
    Some things cannot be determined but go for what has the most in common with real world metals.

    The best D&D definition would be: "Would you rule that a druid looses his powers or not when donning an item made of that material?"
    Last edited by Spore; 2015-12-09 at 06:43 AM.

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post

    And don't you forget it.
    Red Fel wins, not just this thread, but the whole damn internet, today with this hilarious evil musical interlude.

    I will not be forgetting it for a very long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    And don't you forget it.
    I just sang this in the voice of Mordin Solus. And will now have nightmare tonight.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Here is the Wikipedia article on metal.. It has a wide variety of definitions and descriptions of what metals are.

    The first definition I learned in school was that metals are the elements on the center and left parts of the periodic table. This is probably what the game developers are thinking of when they made the game. For things with more than one element, ask yourself if it is mostly metallic elements and if the ratio between the elements can be adjusted arbitrarily. For example, steel is mostly iron with a few other things. The fact that one of those is carbon doesn't matter because the amount of carbon added is not some fixed ratio of the number of atoms. For counterexample, salt is NaCl, which is only half "metal" and tends to prefer being exactly half and half, rather than say, two thirds of one and one third of the other.

    As a condensed matter physicist, my personal definition is the one in the Electrical section of the article. It is rather technical, but the short version is that it only takes a small amount of energy to nudge electrons such that you have more of them traveling in one direction than the other. By this definition, pretty much anything conductive is a metal. This definition has some oddities. Diamond is an insulator. Graphite, graphene, and some nanotubes are metals. Certain other nanotubes are semiconductors. All are pure carbon.

    The definition I find the funniest comes from astronomy. Any element except hydrogen and helium is a metal. That includes everything that is solid and room temperature and pressure. I recommend not adopting this definition unless you hate druids or love BoEF, because it leaves them without anything to wear.



    As for what you should allow that ability to work on, I propose three criteria.

    1. It comes from the ground.
    2. It has hardness.
    3. It's harder to light on fire than coal is.

    The first one is obvious-that is where the stones, metals, and clay are. The second one is partly a logical requirement of the ability, but also excludes loose dirt, water, oil, and natural gas. The third one is mostly to prevent weirdness and abuse. It excludes wood, coal, and most other organic substances. Note that you can burn metals, but most of them are either hard to ignite (such as iron) or require modern methods to obtain (aluminum, anything on the far left column of the periodic table), so that should not include many things that are obviously metallic.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Abithrios View Post
    Here is the Wikipedia article on metal.. It has a wide variety of definitions and descriptions of what metals are.

    The first definition I learned in school was that metals are the elements on the center and left parts of the periodic table. This is probably what the game developers are thinking of when they made the game. For things with more than one element, ask yourself if it is mostly metallic elements and if the ratio between the elements can be adjusted arbitrarily. For example, steel is mostly iron with a few other things. The fact that one of those is carbon doesn't matter because the amount of carbon added is not some fixed ratio of the number of atoms. For counterexample, salt is NaCl, which is only half "metal" and tends to prefer being exactly half and half, rather than say, two thirds of one and one third of the other.

    As a condensed matter physicist, my personal definition is the one in the Electrical section of the article. It is rather technical, but the short version is that it only takes a small amount of energy to nudge electrons such that you have more of them traveling in one direction than the other. By this definition, pretty much anything conductive is a metal. This definition has some oddities. Diamond is an insulator. Graphite, graphene, and some nanotubes are metals. Certain other nanotubes are semiconductors. All are pure carbon.

    The definition I find the funniest comes from astronomy. Any element except hydrogen and helium is a metal. That includes everything that is solid and room temperature and pressure. I recommend not adopting this definition unless you hate druids or love BoEF, because it leaves them without anything to wear.



    As for what you should allow that ability to work on, I propose three criteria.

    1. It comes from the ground.
    2. It has hardness.
    3. It's harder to light on fire than coal is.

    The first one is obvious-that is where the stones, metals, and clay are. The second one is partly a logical requirement of the ability, but also excludes loose dirt, water, oil, and natural gas. The third one is mostly to prevent weirdness and abuse. It excludes wood, coal, and most other organic substances. Note that you can burn metals, but most of them are either hard to ignite (such as iron) or require modern methods to obtain (aluminum, anything on the far left column of the periodic table), so that should not include many things that are obviously metallic.

    It comes from the ground may not apply in some cases then since some of the materials come from other planes or outer space :P I heard some metals be called sky metals before from somewhere because of this. Physics applies well for our world, but when you have a cosmology and magic in the mix, the whole periodic table could be vastly different.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsondawn View Post
    It comes from the ground may not apply in some cases then since some of the materials come from other planes or outer space :P I heard some metals be called sky metals before from somewhere because of this. Physics applies well for our world, but when you have a cosmology and magic in the mix, the whole periodic table could be vastly different.
    Sigh...

    Fine, how about if you can find it on the elemental plane of earth?

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Just for that, FocusWolf... Just for that...

    Requisition me... A beat!
    ...
    Sent to my wife and two friends who are Gilbert and Sullivan fans. One of whom has been in The Pirates of Penzance chorus in a fairly major production. Thanks for making my morning.
    Last edited by Seward; 2015-12-10 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsondawn View Post
    It comes from the ground may not apply in some cases then since some of the materials come from other planes or outer space :P I heard some metals be called sky metals before from somewhere because of this. Physics applies well for our world, but when you have a cosmology and magic in the mix, the whole periodic table could be vastly different.
    It's metal if the "Metal Domain" gods agree it is metal.

    But the actual description (earth, stone or metal) it is likely anything that might be found on the earth elemental plane. Which is some cosmologies might include things like coal and petrified wood, and in others might now.

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Just for that, FocusWolf... Just for that...

    Requisition me... A beat!

    *ahem*

    I am the very model of a modern Evil Mastermind,
    I often bring whatever scheme you'll find has come to pass to mind.
    My exploits will be cited by tomorrow's best historian,
    And often come accompanied by chanting quite Gregorian.
    When making up my residence within my lovely fort'ress
    My methods range from quite hospitable to mostly torturous.
    About techniques of cruelty I am teeming with a lot o'news,
    And when it comes to executions, friend, you know I've got a noose!

    (And when it comes to executions, friend, you know he's got a noose!)


    ... Did I ask for assistance?

    *ahem*

    In short, in all the many realms and stories you are wont to find,
    I am the very model of a modern Evil Mastermind!


    And don't you forget it.
    Did you write that, or get it from somewhere? It's quite good. Though the line that ends in "fort'ress" actually needs an extra syllable inserted, not removed, e.g. "for-tu-ress," and the line following it has too many syllables, but the breakdown of the words is making it tricky for me to determine quite where to clip them. I think you might get away with removing "mostly."

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Did you write that, or get it from somewhere? It's quite good. Though the line that ends in "fort'ress" actually needs an extra syllable inserted, not removed, e.g. "for-tu-ress," and the line following it has too many syllables, but the breakdown of the words is making it tricky for me to determine quite where to clip them. I think you might get away with removing "mostly."
    Just came up with it, actually. Top of my head. Evil is inspiration, yo.

    And, yeah. I was trying to come up with a way to emphasize the space between t and r, rather than swallow it (like when most people say fortress), and the apostrophe was all I could come up with. Maybe add an e in there?

    I mean, if I really wanted to, I suppose I could expand it to fill the whole bloody song, but that was when I started to go dry, so I wrapped it up.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

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    Default Re: what is made of "metal"

    Very well done, then, if it was both a first draft and off the top of your head.

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