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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    So I am DMing a game and I am looking to avoid a TPK next session.

    My PCs have captured and interrogated members of an arcane guild and are about to storm in next session, potentially fighting a lot of high level wizards and multiclass wizards. They failed to ask a lot of reconnaissance type questions of their prisoners so don't know what is in there and how tough it is going to be. Given the plot arc and NPCs involved there is a limit to how easy i can make the encounter without it being inconsistent with the environment. A Deus Ex machena to make it easier is also unsatisfying ("part of the roof happens to collapse just as you are coming in and crushes two wizards").

    If the party go in unprepared I believe they will all die. How do I telegraph to them that they will need to be careful, they will need to use a lot of consumables and they will need to be smart to survive? How do I encourage them to change the emphasis of their plans from "we go in there and kill them to stop their evil plans" to something more like "we go in there, hopefully getting far enough to disrupt their evil plans for a while, to buy us some time and we try and get out whilst most of us are still alive".

    What are some clues I can put in to help them take a slightly more cautious approach (I thought I had put a lot of clues out there already that these guys were powerful, but maybe i need a bit more!). Or do I just let them TPK themselves? Do I give them a "prisoner" they can free who can help them? Do they get some perfectly appropriate magic wands they just "find" inside the building?

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    I would advise doing nothing and letting TPK occur only if this is the umpteenth time your players do something like this. They might need a 'lesson' that they need to try a little harder for this game to be more fun.

    If this is an incident, then I would definitely give them some clues. These are just a few ideas (some or all of which may not be appropriate, as I'm not familiar with your setting/rules):
    - a public display of power by the guild: some festival/religious ritual/sacrifice/any public event reveals a member of the guild demonstrating abilities/casting a spell of great power. This should make it clear that your guys are up against a very strong foe;
    - have an NPC volunteer the information, maybe it's an NPC who wants them to succeed (perhaps an operative of another guild) and therefore seeks to prepare them properly;
    - have some tavern stories/local legends circulate about how the wizards dispatched a threat with relative ease that would be way above your players;
    - stage an encounter with a relatively low-level/common rank member of the guild who proves to be very challenging for your players to defeat.

    A vital part of any of the above would be to offer them an alternative quest hook. Your players know they're playing a game and most players are pretty receptive to following the logical/set-out path as they're aware of challenges and the need to level up to meet them. When your players see that a) the enemy is (perhaps too) powerful and b) there is something else to do, they'll likely go for the other quest and not rush towards their death. This is especially true if you present them with a quest hook to find something that will aid them in their attack on the arcane guild.

    You could also consider making this a non-TPK event. If your players get defeated, maybe the arcane guild will prefer to capture them? (Sure, one or two might die, but not necessarily all.) You can offer them possibilities of escape or even have the arcane guild ship them off to a prison camp/force them (as their expendable prisoners) to undertake a dangerous mission for the guild.
    Last edited by Nobot; 2015-12-09 at 08:45 AM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Maybe you could show them that they need to prepare by bringing the fight to them?

    They've captured some guild members - so those captives' bosses scried for their missing mooks, and have found the party. Instead of the party going and attacking the guild, a single guild member arrives and attacks (perhaps she is in communication with other guild members while attacking). Set the level of this antagonist as high as you think the party can manage, so they have a very tough fight.
    For added hints that they need to prepare, you could have this attacking guild member teleport away when the fight goes badly for her ("Dammit, I need the elite crew: you guys are tougher than I expected." *banf*) - then they have to realise the guild is a dangerous place that requires planning.

    Alternately, let them fail!

    Seriously, a TPK can be turned into a TPC (total party captured) just by having them all wake up in prison. Or apply the Final Destination effect - the deadly fight scene was a vision one of the PCs had, and now they have a chance to avoid fate.
    I blogged about these and others ages ago - here's my post.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    How intelligent are the PCs? If they are smart and have overlooked important questions you can say something like "it occurs to you that you might want to ask about...".
    Obvious and hamfisted but fair if it is things the PCs likely would think about and the players haven't.

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    If you think it is something the characters should have figured out by now then just tell them. Tell the players there is a significant chance of death if they do this and that there opponents are above there pay grade. Then if they die at least they won't feel cheated.

    DMing and getting across the right information to the players is super hard. Dropping clues rarely works like you want it to. Something dangerous could be dangerous for normal people not the PCs. Warnings often look more like quest hooks than legit warning. PC's can often steamroll any 1 fight even if it is deadly for them so it doesn't give the players a great sense of how difficult it is, it's only after the 3rd or 4th fight and they've run out of resources and need to retreat that they figure it out.

    There are a lot of ways the information you think you've given the players isn't at all what they are getting out of it. So just tell them.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    How meta are they? Alternatively, how many PCs are arcane-aware? Up to the fight, spring increasingly complex magical traps on them that, because plot, don't automatically scry on them. The more complex the contingent magical effect, the more powerful the wizards. If they fail to get the point, make the last room before the battles with wizards begin almost totally empty, unsettling, and obviously a pre-boss fight room. Stock it with health potions and, if you can, "stamina" potions of sorts. Full on Mega Man foreshadowing.

    If they're not taking the hint, and you REALLY, REALLY like their characters, it's not wrong to, at this point, open up and say it: "You guys are totally unready for this. If you walk through this door, I think you will all die. But I won't stop you."

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Yeah, I would ask for a few appropriate rolls relating to the interrogation (Gather Info, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Bluff, etc.) and have good results on the rolls result in the prisoners spilling more specific information. Explain it as something the PCs thought to ask that their players didn't think of, because the PCs know this task better than their players do. (Not unreasonable; I don't know how to pick a lock, but my rogue sure does! And my smarmy seductor can talk to anybody, whereas I'm blunt to the point of being off-putting most of the time.)

    The idea of having the bad guys send a force to attack THEM is also good.

    Having a prisoner threaten and boast, giving up information in the form of "you've already lost" type braggadocio, would also be a way to give them an idea of what to expect. "You'll never get past the basilisk!" would, for instance, clue them in to prepare for petrification effects.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Ah thanks for all these.

    Attacking the party is interesting - although in the middle of a city it could be difficult (so maybe on the road there?) and letting them know which faction it is is an extra challenge. Trying to find someone to attack them in keeping with the way the group works could be interesting. I think this may be the best way - it does have the problem of running down the party's resources (although if I can maybe restrain/blind or whatever casters and others that will chew through a lot of long rest resources and let the short resters handle most of that encounter they may still go into the guild fully stacked.

    So the prisoners have been carted off to gaol, so further questioning is a little awkward (also I put the PCs on a bit of a clock so they are on a forced march to the city). Running 5th edition so less gather information done (and that mainly done RP) - otherwise i could know what to tell them. Perhaps show them some permanent effect spells and give some knowledge arcana checks to say "this is cast as an 8th level spell" or similar.

    I have been new to 5th ed and I have massively underestimated the power of the PCs so far so they have kind of stormed through everything and have become a bit cocky. We want the tension back of knowing that things are dangerous and that people can die. I don't want to warn then OOC as then next time, they think it is safe if no warning is given. I want the excitement of people using clues but also wondering what they missed.

    Some characters dying is maybe ok, but I worry that it will be my newer players who cant judge things so well (although they have kind of been the most cautious so far) that will die - I don't want to dispirit them or feel they are being picked on. A couple of resurrections and a forced retreat might not be so bad.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Red Fel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Quote Originally Posted by DireSickFish View Post
    If you think it is something the characters should have figured out by now then just tell them. Tell the players there is a significant chance of death if they do this and that there opponents are above there pay grade. Then if they die at least they won't feel cheated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Yeah, I would ask for a few appropriate rolls relating to the interrogation (Gather Info, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Bluff, etc.) and have good results on the rolls result in the prisoners spilling more specific information. Explain it as something the PCs thought to ask that their players didn't think of, because the PCs know this task better than their players do. (Not unreasonable; I don't know how to pick a lock, but my rogue sure does! And my smarmy seductor can talk to anybody, whereas I'm blunt to the point of being off-putting most of the time.)
    These.

    First off, I would suggest mentioning to the players that they really didn't ask a lot of questions, and that given how powerful their opponents are (I trust they at least know generally that they're dealing with casters? I mean, it is an arcane guild) they might consider getting a bit more info. If they're game for it, offer to "turn back the clock" a bit, almost in the form of a flashback - give them the chance to ask the questions they would or should have asked, and just assume that they did so when given the chance originally. Even better, consider just letting them roll, and giving them valuable info for good rolls - after all, the PCs are theoretically people living in this world, who have first-hand experience with this stuff; they should know, probably better than their players, what constitutes important information.

    Of course, if they reject the offer of a second bite of the apple, then they've made their choice. At that point, it is a deliberate choice on their part to proceed with what you've now told them explicitly is insufficient intel. Their call, their consequences. Pull no punches. Don't punish, but don't save, either.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    I have a less lethal and more hilarious way of telegraphing your concerns: Let them charge into the guild, only have the wizard know about it and have them fight through some really hard dungeon only to suddenly wake up at the foot of the tower on their backs with their eyebrows shaved off and a scathing note pinned to each of them.
    Blarg...

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    These.

    First off, I would suggest mentioning to the players that they really didn't ask a lot of questions, and that given how powerful their opponents are (I trust they at least know generally that they're dealing with casters? I mean, it is an arcane guild) they might consider getting a bit more info. If they're game for it, offer to "turn back the clock" a bit, almost in the form of a flashback - give them the chance to ask the questions they would or should have asked, and just assume that they did so when given the chance originally. Even better, consider just letting them roll, and giving them valuable info for good rolls - after all, the PCs are theoretically people living in this world, who have first-hand experience with this stuff; they should know, probably better than their players, what constitutes important information.

    Of course, if they reject the offer of a second bite of the apple, then they've made their choice. At that point, it is a deliberate choice on their part to proceed with what you've now told them explicitly is insufficient intel. Their call, their consequences. Pull no punches. Don't punish, but don't save, either.

    Yeah. I may have to.

    For weeks I had been quietly thinking I had been doing a good job of being a DM. Lost of consistent clues (apart from when the inconsistency of those clues was a clue itself), some fun (if easy) encounters and laying the groundwork for an interesting world.

    Now looking back I have made a number of mistakes; in an effort to raise tension there is a clock on the ritual they are running to stop - so I have kind of tied them into a combat date. I gave them some captives, but overloaded them with information so they didn't ask other important questions. I set up the people they are fighting to be sufficiently powerful that if they are a pushover it is very anticlimactic. My not hurting players previously has lead to poor expectations for this fight.

    Ah well, I will see what extra warnings I can provide - I feel i have not been too stingy on opportunities to find out more nor motivation to do so so I wont worry too much if it is very tough. I will maybe try and open with non lethal spells (blindness, slow etc.).

    I will report back and let you know how many survived.

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    I'm fond of a straight forward out of game warning for when the players are about to do something really stupid. Something to the effect of "This is the stupidest *&$%ing plan" tends to work. Generally the problem is that they read something differently earlier, so if you can patch that up it improves decision making. If they decide to enact said stupidest plan anyways, that's their problem.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I'm fond of a straight forward out of game warning for when the players are about to do something really stupid. Something to the effect of "This is the stupidest *&$%ing plan" tends to work. Generally the problem is that they read something differently earlier, so if you can patch that up it improves decision making. If they decide to enact said stupidest plan anyways, that's their problem.
    Yeah, the problem is that it is more a bit careless than stupid. There are a lot of lives at stake if they don't go in today. It is more the manner of their entrance and the efficient use of resources i am worried about.

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    If you want to go the flashback route, ask them how they're preparing and why. Give them "flashback montage" dice rolls so they can ask questions and get answers as they're "packing." Make it feel all action-y.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    One way to discourage them is to have something "flashy" occur when they get to the point where they're going to infiltrate. Maybe there's a dead skeleton in the opening of the "secret passage". Or there's a "Tim"-like sorcerer using magic missile to pull off ridiculous stunts, showing that wasting a few caster slots means nothing to these people. Or maybe the castle is ridiculously imposing, or is bolstered by showy magic.

    You could also pull off the "slight to major railroading" solution, where suddenly there's less wizards than you planned! Maybe for some reason they were called away. Maybe, due to some ridiculous Deus Ex Machina, some other people got pissed and attacked them at the same time. Or one of the characters had a dream in which they all died.

    As far as OOC warning, I usually ask, "Are you SURE you want to do this?" If my players give me the thumbs up, then ok. (Btw, sometimes players die to easy encounters, due to rolls. Asking them in advance is like putting a save spot with a chest full of healing spells right before the big boss.)

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    1. Make the base not the main one. You could just have it be a small base near the main base. So they can attack it and even wipe it out, but it is still just a stepping stone to the main base.

    2. Make the base weakened. Say have the base have just been attacked like the day before the Pc's got there. So they find lots of triggered traps, damage and few foes. You could also just have most of the powerful folks out doing something, with only a skeleton crew back at the base.

    3. The ''your not ready''. Let the Pc's attack, and have a wizard just parallelize them, polymorph them into monkeys and teleport them to a far off jungle. Or something like that.

    4. Put a big guard. Something they would have a hard time defeating....and if they can't get past the guard..

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Tell them:

    "Hey guys, this fight is going to be super-cereal, and if you don't prepare, odds are that you'll die. I won't be pulling any punches, so this is your notice"

    All the "Dream Sequence" suggestions, would (for me) make the game awful, if there's no risk, there's no chance of failure, why would I do anything if I couldn't strive to succeed over odds. I mean I might as well just sit in my room and daydream about a world where I crush all the dragons.

    I would say warn them Out-Of-Character, that it's going to be serious business, and that you won't pull punches. Not only should that get them to prepare, but that should give the players a heightened sense of the stakes, which will heighten their enjoyment, and may translate into character behavior changes and roleplay.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Tell them:

    "Hey guys, this fight is going to be super-cereal, and if you don't prepare, odds are that you'll die. I won't be pulling any punches, so this is your notice"

    All the "Dream Sequence" suggestions, would (for me) make the game awful, if there's no risk, there's no chance of failure, why would I do anything if I couldn't strive to succeed over odds. I mean I might as well just sit in my room and daydream about a world where I crush all the dragons.

    I would say warn them Out-Of-Character, that it's going to be serious business, and that you won't pull punches. Not only should that get them to prepare, but that should give the players a heightened sense of the stakes, which will heighten their enjoyment, and may translate into character behavior changes and roleplay.
    I agree. There has to be real risk to have real excitement.

    A deus ex will probably annoy everyone, a TPK might not go down too badly but I would rather avoid it. I could showcase power with a smaller encounter but that might then use resources better reserved for the epic encounter. A show of force as a pure display does show power, but then it kind of means that the enemy know the PCs are coming which removes survival and combat options from them (stealth could be pretty useful).

    Maybe even a simple NPC asking why they are going in - what they hope to achieve might work. Get them to focus on the objective of stopping the ritual/disrupting the plan rather than the assumption that they have to fight/kill everything to win.

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    If your Players are comfoprtable with OOC Info/Suggestions: The Above.
    Avoids a LOT of potential catastrophes.

    if not, try a clear, obvious thing like "the Castle is surrounded by soummoned xy, flying around its towers" or something like that.
    Believe me, I tried the Dreamquest/Flashback thing quite often, and it only ever worked to my AND the players satisfaction once. :(

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Have them chased away before they get there by something that they clearly cannot beat without a plan.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    The players would need OOC reminders, not IC ones - the latter would just get misinterpreted. They're rushing in without preparation because the previous games (video or tabletop) they've played all encourage this playstyle of "well there isn't a way to research, just go on and see what you can do". They won't realize there's even such thing as monsters they're not supposed to defeat (until later), they'll just assume there is a way and will attempt to find it.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    They failed to ask a lot of reconnaissance type questions of their prisoners so don't know what is in there and how tough it is going to be.

    If the party go in unprepared I believe they will all die.
    This. The best way to telegraph them is to just tell them.

    If you want something more IC, have them make a really easy INT, maybe WIS, check to realize it. If you want to stress that they really should have been more clever, and that you expect it from them, have the PC with the smaller modifier realize it. (Beware, as this can feel extremely demoralizing. It's better just to tell them OOC.)

    Do they get some perfectly appropriate magic wands they just "find" inside the building?
    This can work, but only if you can answer this question: "Why would the guild of powerful wizards leave the very items that can defeat them less protected than themselves?" Otherwise, it will feel like a Deus Ex Machina.

    If you choose this solution, you'll still have to tell your players that they forgot to ask the right questions, so that doesn't happen again. You don't want to nerf your encounters because you players failed to realize something. (Our DM once had to say that there was a much easier and obvious way to defeat an enemy, after a near death experience. And yes, it was really obvious.)

    In any case, if there is something that the character's should know, but the players don't, you are the one responsible to tell them. You should have pointed this out before the interrogation was over, so tell your players that you forgot to do it too.
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Spread the encounter out.

    Instead of having all the wizards in the guildhall, together, move some into a smaller related encounter. Whether that means sending wizards after the PCS or having some wizards on the road causing trouble.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    If the players need preparation, you could always say so explicitly at the start.

    When I ran a heist session in my campaign, I explained at the start that prior to the big event, they could earn preparation points in the days beforehand, usually just with a skill check and explaining how it helped. Then, during the adventure they could spend the points to know useful secrets.

    For example, the sorcerer used bluff in an attempt to befriend the chef and trick information out of him, while the ranger loitered outside and used their exceptional perception to try and work out the patrol routes. When they broke in, they spent points to know what was behind a door, check there was a gap in the patrols where they could cross a corridor without being spotted, and to bring along a set of fake servant outfits.

    By providing explicit benefits to patience and planning, there wasn't any uncertainty over whether they should take their time to get ready.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    So I avoided a TPK in the end. Just.

    I used a hint about bulky loot to get them to bring a cart, so they had an emergency get-away vehicle.

    A familiar set of a trap and took enough damage to nearly kill a PC. They became cautious.

    I put all the most dangerous encounters on the route to the ritual they were looking to stop. This meant all the corpses could be picked up on the way out to be resurrected.

    Silence spells were used to stop mages blowing all their spells too early on, spells that later helped the party escape.




    It was ok in the end. 3 of 5 PCs dead or disabled. A cleric and a wizard remained to extract the others whilst fleeing. No loot but a successful mission from the campaign side.

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    Default Re: Best way to Telegraph my Players need more preparation

    Sounds like things went great! Your players learned a valuable lesson about discretion and valour, and not everyone died.
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