Alternatives to Black & White Magic...Again

[ThinkMinty]

I started a thread on this subject a week or two ago, went a little something like this:

Is there another way and/or wording of conveying the same premise?

Generally, as they're described,
White Magic is about healing, as well as sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows.
Black magic is about harming, as well as gloom, doom, and ultraviolence.

I'm just wonderin' if there's other terms for that setup, since Black and White mean different stuffs in other contexts.

Along the way, something came up, illustrated out of order by a couple posts.

Must there be a duality? Why not make magic itself morally grey and invest in an expy of the laws of magic in the Dresden Files. it leads to less white is good, derp, black is evil, durrr and more to an axe is an axe, no matter who uses it.

We can spitball the entire nomenclature, plus I'm curious as to what you've built.

Without the whole essential set-up, there was bound to be some confusion.

For the sake of clarity, I'll divulge basic detail as to the division.

Within the orthodoxy of academic magic, it gets broken down into nine schools. Some alternative styles and practices exist outside of it, but at fancy wizard college or even just wizard night-trade school, it's broken down into nine things. Two of them were already mentioned;

+Black
+White

Here are the other seven.

+Abstract Magic. Conjures up thoughforms; this the bread and butter blasting school, although it can be as versatile as a lantern corps ring if you know what you're doing. Currently called "Abstract", because abstract nouns.
+Divination Magic. Allows the user to enhance their senses and access information from afar or in the past tense. Seeing into the future is not currently a proven phenomenon, but present data can be used to "fake" clairvoyance. Also interacts with machines to some extent. Currently called "Divination", because why mess with success?
+Mind Magic. Does Y. Currently called "Enchantment" since it lets me use the words "enchantress" and "encantor" unironically.
+Illusion Magic. Basically using magic to lie to people's senses. Currently called "Z", because of course it is.
+Rule Magic. Allows the caster to create, remove, or modify rules to suit their needs. The go-to for protective magic, but it'll more applications if you're great at semantics. Currently called "Regimency", because I can, that's why.
+Time-Space Magic. Manipulates time and/or space to suit the caster's needs. This is the one you summon big fish with. Currently called "Temporary", because I like puns.
+Shape Magic. Does Y. Currently called "Transmogrification", because I like Calvin and Hobbes.

---

Black n' White magic aren't the be-all end-all sorting of the magic, they're just specialist fields with extra baggage.

None of the styles are mutually exclusive, although each requires a different approach, so it's more typical for someone to focus on one or two and maybe dabble in another rather than know conveniently-the-best bits from all of them, at least among proper scholars of magic. A lot of shortcuts exist, but the actual understanding has more value in the end.

So yeah, I hope that answers some of the questions I didn't beforehand, and a more focused discussion can take place in round two.

[AMFV]

The problem with this kind of spread is that you've defined the others by what they do. The effect they have. Black and White are more defined by their respective moral imperative. I still think that Defiling or Preserving, might be a better dichotomy, since that fits better with the other ones (in terms of stating an effect). Otherwise you need to define explicitly the effects of the black and white magic, for us to be able to help.

You did say you don't intend for the black magic to be actually evil, only for it to be represented as such, and that the white magic wasn't intended to be inherently good (if I recall correctly from the previous thread.) So I would look to real world fields that were thought of as being more morally dubious. Certain fields of medicine that were thought of as quackery would be an example. Black Magic could deal with pseudoscience, and white magic with conventional science. There are many other splits you could implement, but we would need to know more details.

[goto124]

White Magic could be Divine/God-given magic, and every other magic could be considered Black by [insert main society here].

[Joe the Rat]

I think it's less about the effects than the mechanisms. The other seven are defined more by how they work than what they do. What we have for B&W is a theme, and some effects. And these are not exclusive effects. Timey-Wimey and High Alchemy (SpaceTime and Transmog) can produce healing effects: Time manipulation can accelerate healing (a la DC's Flash*), or reverse/retcon the wound's existence (Bleach's Orihime), and Transmogrification can literally reshape the wounds into not being wounds, for example.

The general feel I have from the previous discussion is that White is a positive or sustaining principle, and Black a negative or destructive principle (or an inversion, in the case of undeath). Light and Dark, Creation and Destruction, Vorlons and Shadows, Stasis and Entropy.

Hmmm. Entropy is a fun word to play with. "Entropic ______" can be evocative of destructive and negative effects (and Entropic Force is a wonderful oxymoron).

Something else that strikes me is how unlike the rest, these two are in stark contrast to one another - and to an extent defined by one another. Light is the Left hand of Darkness, Chiaroscuro, and so forth. You could try and step back from this. White being a life-energy and soul type thing (healing, boosting, animating objects and creating life), and Black being a cosmic principle of decay. This makes the dichotomy more of a philosophical contrast than a mechanical one. White doesn't repair buildings, or create Force Constructs (Abstract), or create information (Divination), while Black breaks them all down. This also gives Black some explicit anti-magic (cancellation) options. This would also play into the "bad, but not really" element. While we tend to think of decay as a bad thing, it is really no more morally questionable than Oxidation.

* - Yes, I know, "Speed Force to accelerate the healing process," but that's what tricked out time does.

[snacksmoto]

I'm thinking that there shouldn't be the Black/White division seeing that the other disciplines are not particularly defined by another discipline. Also, it seems to me that the formal structure of magical knowledge seems to preclude the existence of a large body of unknown or forbidden knowledge in opposition to that of White magic.

Perhaps both stereotypical Black and White magic can all be listed under "Life Force" magic. It could be possible to include effects such as object animation. Just as a thought, effects such as object animation and disintegration could be reserved for exceptional casters who are capable in multiple, specific disciplines.

[Nightcanon]

Do you mean alternatives to using 'white' and 'black' as synonyms for 'good' and 'evil', or do you mean alternatives where such things as necromancy aren't necessarily seen as evil?
The first is surprisingly tricky, given Earth's long-standing cultural fears of the dark/ unknown, though I guess you could think of a setting in which night-time was associated with positives (perhaps the moon is associated with healing or divination or some other good) that severs the dark/black = bad link, while historical wars with purple-skinned evil outsiders mean that that colour is associated with evil (and demonology, necromancy etc).

[Red Fel]

Yeah, a lot of this was hashed out in the last thread, but the fact is, depending on how you define "black" and "white" magic, there could be overlap, or either one might include one of these additional categories you've mentioned, or both could.

For example, as has been mentioned, "white" magic could be divine, granted by deities or powerful beings, while "black" could be arcane, the result of research and willpower. "White" could be the protective magic of wards and healing, while "black" could be the destructive power of energy and curses. "White" could be spells which are inherently good, and "black" spells inherently evil. "White" could be magic that harnesses the energy of stillness and order, while "black" wields the vital power of life and chaos. Or "white" could be any magic used for good, and "black" any magic used for evil. Or vice-versa.

Or you could go in another direction entirely. In the Final Fantasy series, there were a half dozen colors of magic depending on what it did. Black Magic used the elements to wreck things. White Magic healed, protected, and used holy power to annihilate the undead. Red Magic did a bit of both. Gray (or Time) Magic harnessed time and gravity to speed things up, slow them down, or slice proportionate chunks of life off of an enemy. And Blue Magic harnessed the natural (or unnatural) powers of monsters.

Again, it depends entirely on how you define these things. We can't come up with "alternatives to X" until you tell us what X is.

It's like saying, "I'm used to smeerp and widget. But I'm tired of smeerp and widget. Can you propose an alternative to smeerp and widget?" Because my response would be to say, "What are smeerp and widget?" Actually, my response would involve violence, followed by a string of expletives, but it would boil down to the same thing.

[Anonymouswizard]

An idea, it sounds like your 'white' magic is about adding, while your 'black' magic is about destroying.

Now, Creation/Restoration and Destruction work, but are overdone. I like the idea of something entropy-based for black magic, so what could we do for white magic?

Google Translate says the Latin for gift is donum, which might be a start.

[Nero24200]

In a setting I've used before I had Sun Magic and Moon Magic.

Sun Magic consisted of archtypical cleric spells like healing, protection, divine-theme offensive spells etc.

Moon Magic consisted of illusions, transmutations, enchantments, divinations and hints of evocation/conjuration as well.

It may not be what you're looking for as Moon Magic had a stronger focused on typically "witch" abilities such as curses rather than blasty fireballs (since the references to the moon were related to it's symbolism with lunacy and secrecy, so illusions, curses and enchantments make the most sense in that regard).

[Fable Wright]

For the theme you're going for: Perhaps Radiant and Entropic magic.

Radiant magic is the sun's magic. It destroys undead creatures of the night as powerfully as the sun does. It bolsters, it closes wounds, it forces men to march past their limits, and it restores light where it is lost. Be that the light of hope, the light of life, or the light of the sun. It is not without a harsher side. It inspires men to march, but those it cannot inspire, it will conscript. For all the quiet moments of serenity, it will fill completely, allowing only its own piece. It is loved for what it can do to help, and not feared for the common man can seek shade from the sun's light.

Entropic magic is the end of all things, though endings take all forms. It is the end of life, be it by fire, lightning, or plague. It is the end of death as one raises bones in tortured servitude. It is the end of itself, destroying even that which it has given form, destroying the user, and destroying the field of magic around it. It is the end of existence, destroying the fabric of reality for just long enough for a demon to escape through. Other magics create, or change, or bend. Entropic magic is the only magic that ends. And for that it is horrifying.

[ThinkMinty]

If it helps, I'm working off a Daoist conception of Yin and Yang with how Black and White work, which is somewhat informed by the absurdist interpretation of such in Discordianism. Black and White Magic are sort of...the shady and sunny sides of the same hill.

Do you mean alternatives to using 'white' and 'black' as synonyms for 'good' and 'evil', or do you mean alternatives where such things as necromancy aren't necessarily seen as evil?

The latter. Otherwise I can't have pulp-heroic necromancers.

The first is surprisingly tricky, given Earth's long-standing cultural fears of the dark/ unknown, though I guess you could think of a setting in which night-time was associated with positives (perhaps the moon is associated with healing or divination or some other good) that severs the dark/black = bad link, while historical wars with purple-skinned evil outsiders mean that that colour is associated with evil (and demonology, necromancy etc).

...and you figured out a fair chunk of the plot fodder.

The problem with this kind of spread is that you've defined the others by what they do. The effect they have. Black and White are more defined by their respective moral imperative. I still think that Defiling or Preserving, might be a better dichotomy, since that fits better with the other ones (in terms of stating an effect). Otherwise you need to define explicitly the effects of the black and white magic, for us to be able to help.

The other schools have their own internally-determined symbolism and whatnot (Divination Mages are creepily fond of eye symbols, for example); the White/Black key off each other on a symbolic and intrinsic level. As with all of the magic, there's differences between the theoretically possible and what practitioners are capable of at various levels of skill. Hypothetically, Mass Death spells exist, but they have such a huge cost that they're pretty much unusable unless you want to kill bacteria.

There's elements of each within the other (the extent to which they are sides of a coin is itself a heated in-setting discussion that usually results Black Mages being slaughtered en masse), which is how Black is able to raise the dead as undead such as shades or ghouls or vampires. Sometimes without a spell being cast, even; certain causes of death have been observed to produce specific flavors of undead. Dying of thirst can make mummies happen, for example. The undead aren't inherently evil...or any more than they would have been alive, there have been and will always be people foolish enough to try and make pet monsters out of dead serial killers.

White can hypothetically return the dead to life-life and there are legends and stories of it happening, but in the setting's reality if such a technique existed it's presently lost knowledge. White's destructive side comes from excesses, which is where it gets stuff blinding burning sunbeams and spells that can enhance virulence or induce cancerous growths.

Something else that strikes me is how unlike the rest, these two are in stark contrast to one another - and to an extent defined by one another. Light is the Left hand of Darkness, Chiaroscuro, and so forth. You could try and step back from this. White being a life-energy and soul type thing (healing, boosting, animating objects and creating life), and Black being a cosmic principle of decay. This makes the dichotomy more of a philosophical contrast than a mechanical one. White doesn't repair buildings, or create Force Constructs (Abstract), or create information (Divination), while Black breaks them all down. This also gives Black some explicit anti-magic (cancellation) options. This would also play into the "bad, but not really" element. While we tend to think of decay as a bad thing, it is really no more morally questionable than Oxidation.

* - Yes, I know, "Speed Force to accelerate the healing process," but that's what tricked out time does.

Black does have some anti-magic capabilities (and White can bolster magic), although it's not studied often, so there isn't much research on this facet. A character did cook up a Black spell that can unravel magic takes the form of a cloud of black smog that peels the life energy out of anything cast by a living person because it smells that bad. The smell is that bad enough that he doesn't use it that often, since the stench takes a while to go away.

[Keltest]

how about Enhancement and Debilitation? There isn't necessarily an inherent moral judgment in the titles, but they are in contrast to each other in that they both manipulate the relative strengths of something. And Enhancement isn't universally a "good" or peaceful school because it would also contain spells like pyrotechnics, while Debilitation spells can be used to do things like sedate patients for medical care, or put out that raging fire that the silly Enhancement mage blew up with their pyrotechnics spell.