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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Observation: it is possible to heal 240 HP with a single third-level spell.

    Explanation: Aura of Vitality heals 2d6 HP per round for up to 1 minute. It's a third-level spell, and Disciple of Life adds 2+(spell level) in healing every time you heal another creature with a spell, so 2d6+5 points of healing per round. Extend Spell costs 1 sorcery point and doubles the duration of a spell lasting at least one minute, to a maximum of 24 hours. So you get 20 rounds of healing from an Extended Aura of Life, for 40d6+100 points of healing total, at the cost of one third level spell slot and one sorcery point.

    Implication: by 10th level, you can be healing 2060 HP of damage per long rest. (Lore Bard 6/Cleric of Life 1/Sorcerer 3.) On top of that, by 15th level you can be healing 480 HP of damage per short rest (add Warlock 5).

    Ridiculously specialized build which is nevertheless surprisingly gishy: take a human (Mobile) with high Cha and at least 13 Wis.

    Level 1: Wild* Sorcerer 1 (for Con save proficiency and Booming Blade)
    Level 2: Cleric of Life 1 (heavy armor, Bless if needed)
    Level 3-8: Lore Bard 6 (Aura of Vitality, Bardic Inspiration, Cutting Words, Hypnotic Pattern)
    Level 9-10: Wild* Sorcerer 3 (Extend Spell, Quicken Spell)
    Level 11-15: Fiendlock* (Tome Pact*) (Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Book of Ancient Secrets*)
    Level 16-19: Lore Bard 10 (more secrets, Animate Objects)
    Level 20: Wild Sorcerer 4

    *Vary to taste

    Mobile cancels out the movement penalty on heavy armor and allows you to Booming Blade + move away.

    You'll get ASIs at level 6, 14, 17, and 20. If you spend these on Cha you can max out Cha by level 14, which coincidentally is the point at which you have Eldritch Blast fully online and Shillelagh Booming/Greenflame Blade, which together with your heavy armor proficiency and Con save proficiency will make you surprisingly tanky. If you need to, you can use your Sorcerer spells like Blur and Shield to make you even tankier, but try to resist the temptation to blow spells on defense (including Bless) unless you are very close to death, because it will probably be cheaper to just soak the hits and patch yourself (and everyone else) up afterwards. If you think weapons are cooler than spells, you could go Bladelock/Thirsting Blade instead of Tome Pact/Book of Ancient Secrets; or if you love terrain effects you could go for Repelling Blast.

    I don't know what to do with the 17th and 20th level ASIs. Maybe spend one on Inspiring Leader or Healer for extra ridiculousness.

    I think this build would be fun and playable from level 2 onwards, and at level 8 it starts to seriously rock. Everything after level 10 is really just overkill.

    Note: you can do something quite similar with a paladorc.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    and not forgetting good berry fun...
    Can you please explain paladorc idea?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    The quibble is whether or not Disciple of Life adds to every round, or every casting.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stygofthedump View Post
    and not forgetting good berry fun...
    Can you please explain paladorc idea?
    Besides being against the rules, applying Disciple of Life to Goodberry still leaves it as much worse than Aura of Vitality. Healing 40 HP for 2 spell points is a 20:1 ratio. Healing 240 HP for 5 spell points (plus one sorcery point) is a 48:1 ratio. Call it 40:1 for the sorcery point.

    There's not much to explain with Paladorc. Hit 9th level as Paladin, now you have Aura of Vitality. Hit 3rd level as Sorcerer, take Extend Spell. Now you can heal 140 HP with Aura of Vitality. Add Life Cleric 1 for an extra +100 HP of healing per spell. It's the same as the build I posted previously except that Paladins aren't full casters, so you lose some spell slots.

    In practice I dislike the Life Cleric dip (I hate clerics), so adding Extend Spell to my Paladin 7/Wild Sorc 4 is about as far as I feel the need to go. My overall plan is Paladin 9, then Chthulock 2, then Sorc 9, filling roles as melee tank/healer/summoner/sneaky scout/artillery/communications/diplomat/mid-range damage specialist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    The quibble is whether or not Disciple of Life adds to every round, or every casting.
    The 6th level feature adds to every casting, but the first level feature adds to every time you heal someone with a spell. (That's why it doesn't work for Goodberry BTW.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2015-12-12 at 12:54 PM.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Besides being against the rules, applying Disciple of Life to Goodberry still leaves it as much worse than Aura of Vitality. Healing 40 HP for 2 spell points is a 20:1 ratio. Healing 240 HP for 5 spell points (plus one sorcery point) is a 48:1 ratio. Call it 40:1 for the sorcery point.

    There's not much to explain with Paladorc. Hit 9th level as Paladin, now you have Aura of Vitality. Hit 3rd level as Sorcerer, take Extend Spell. Now you can heal 140 HP with Aura of Vitality. Add Life Cleric 1 for an extra +100 HP of healing per spell. It's the same as the build I posted previously except that Paladins aren't full casters, so you lose some spell slots.

    In practice I dislike the Life Cleric dip (I hate clerics), so adding Extend Spell to my Paladin 7/Wild Sorc 4 is about as far as I feel the need to go. My overall plan is Paladin 9, then Chthulock 2, then Sorc 9, filling roles as melee tank/healer/summoner/sneaky scout/artillery/communications/diplomat/mid-range damage specialist.



    The 6th level feature adds to every casting, but the first level feature adds to every time you heal someone with a spell. (That's why it doesn't work for Goodberry BTW.)
    It isn't against the rules. One of the devs commented on Life Cleric Goodberry, I'll see if I can find it.

    "If Iím a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does the goodberry spell benefit from the feature? Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot."

    http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feat...rs-august-2015
    Last edited by SwordChuck; 2015-12-12 at 01:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Have an ally throw a beacon of hope or two (or an extended beacon of hope), for 50-100 extra hp healed by your aura of vitality.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordChuck View Post
    It isn't against the rules. One of the devs commented on Life Cleric Goodberry, I'll see if I can find it.
    I know about that dev quote, and apparently it's not against the rules they intended to write... but it is against the rules they actually did write. Disciple of Life functions when you heal someone with a spell. Goodberry doesn't heal anyone, it creates berries which restore HP when eaten. If you try to bend the rules far enough to make that "healing with a spell", you wind up with other crazy things like the caster of the Goodberry retroactively healing 4 HP (via Blessed Healer) whenever someone eats the first berry he created with the spell--or even worse, a Necromancer healing 9 HP (via Grim Harvest) when someone is killed by a skeleton he created with Animate Dead.

    It's a rabbit hole. Much better to just stick with the rules that are actually in the PHB.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter, because as mentioned above, Greatberry is still worse than Extended Aura of Vitality.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I know about that dev quote, and apparently it's not against the rules they intended to write... but it is against the rules they actually did write. Disciple of Life functions when you heal someone with a spell. Goodberry doesn't heal anyone, it creates berries which restore HP when eaten. If you try to bend the rules far enough to make that "healing with a spell", you wind up with other crazy things like the caster of the Goodberry retroactively healing 4 HP (via Blessed Healer) whenever someone eats the first berry he created with the spell--or even worse, a Necromancer healing 9 HP (via Grim Harvest) when someone is killed by a skeleton he created with Animate Dead.

    It's a rabbit hole. Much better to just stick with the rules that are actually in the PHB.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter, because as mentioned above, Greatberry is still worse than Extended Aura of Vitality.
    It is not against the rules they did write. Please don't try to cover your tracks that way, it's very unbecoming and quite sad.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordChuck View Post
    It is not against the rules they did write. Please don't try to cover your tracks that way, it's very unbecoming and quite sad.
    I'll refer you to the GITP board rules:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=63&a=1
    Please do not attack, insult, or belittle other posters, individually or collectively.
    Specific things you cannot do on this message board that might be allowed elsewhere:
    ...
    Posts that while directed at another's post content are inherently insulting to the poster, such as, "Your comment is moronic/insane/nonsensical."
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2015-12-12 at 04:24 PM.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    @MaxWilson, great build, I was also thinking the same thing with a half-elf lore bard, warlock, sorcerer, cleric. Skill monkey, heals and ranged attacker.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I'll refer you to the GITP board rules:
    And I find lying to be a form of bullying/insulting. You even admited you knew about the ruling.

    Lying is both unbecoming of people and I find it sad that people need to resort to such tactics to make themselves look better.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordChuck View Post
    And I find lying to be a form of bullying/insulting. You even admited you knew about the ruling.

    Lying is both unbecoming of people and I find it sad that people need to resort to such tactics to make themselves look better.
    I agree with you about the dev ruling. Having said that, stop digging. There's better ways to win arguments, and many arguments aren't worth winning at all.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    So how can we use that awesome healer to the outmost?
    Create a party of characters that rely on powers that mostly recharge on short rests (fighters, warlocks, etc), have the op character join the group, and have them keep going encounter after encounter after encounter.......without long rest. Well, until the op character is out of 3rd or higher level slots. Use 1st and 2nd level slots for goodberies, have someone grab inspiring healer for those few short rests after the op character is out of 3rd of higher level slots. I wonder how many encounters will this group win before they take a long rest.

    Alternatively, such a character would shine in battles that last for several minutes/hours. So basically large scale battles.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    So how can we use that awesome healer to the outmost?
    Create a party of characters that rely on powers that mostly recharge on short rests (fighters, warlocks, etc), have the op character join the group, and have them keep going encounter after encounter after encounter.......without long rest. Well, until the op character is out of 3rd or higher level slots. Use 1st and 2nd level slots for goodberies, have someone grab inspiring healer for those few short rests after the op character is out of 3rd of higher level slots. I wonder how many encounters will this group win before they take a long rest.

    Alternatively, such a character would shine in battles that last for several minutes/hours. So basically large scale battles.
    I heard about some drow sorc/warlock build, that creates new spell slots with help of sorcery points and never uses long rest. He will work great with this superhealer

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malknafein View Post
    I heard about some drow sorc/warlock build, that creates new spell slots with help of sorcery points and never uses long rest. He will work great with this superhealer
    Java Do'Urden, the drow who drinks too much coffee...!

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    So how can we use that awesome healer to the outmost?
    Create a party of characters that rely on powers that mostly recharge on short rests (fighters, warlocks, etc), have the op character join the group, and have them keep going encounter after encounter after encounter.......without long rest. Well, until the op character is out of 3rd or higher level slots. Use 1st and 2nd level slots for goodberies, have someone grab inspiring healer for those few short rests after the op character is out of 3rd of higher level slots. I wonder how many encounters will this group win before they take a long rest.

    Alternatively, such a character would shine in battles that last for several minutes/hours. So basically large scale battles.
    Using one character "to the utmost" isn't really my thing (I tend to focus on removing bottlenecks and vulnerabilities from the group as a whole), but if you did want to specialize the whole party, using that awesome healer is straightforward: add it to any group which tends to bottleneck on HP attrition. Could be a group of Reckless GWM Polearm Master barbearians for example. They'll chop through everything, the healer will patch them up when needed, rinse and repeat.

    My preferred way of thinking about it is to say, "Okay, this guy removes HP attrition from consideration as a lose condition, and he helps out with saving throws via Inspiration. How else can you lose?" Bad intel comes to mind--so put him in a group with a Shadow Monk to do recon. Huge hordes are another way to lose, so put him in a group with excellent crowd control, like a Careful Sorlock. Failed save-or-dies are another way, so include a character to mitigate those (Paladin) and make the whole group very mobile so they can stay away from save-or-die effects. Finally, huge monsters are another way to die, so include some kind of a striker character, either a Sharpshooter type, a Sorlock, or a Necromancer with a platoon of skeleton archers. Now we have five sources of vulnerability and five roles needed, and only three or four PCs to stuff them into, so need to find a way to cover all five bases with only four PCs. That's where the group optimization happens. Maybe the healer guy can be made for example to cover the striker and crowd control roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malknafein View Post
    I heard about some drow sorc/warlock build, that creates new spell slots with help of sorcery points and never uses long rest. He will work great with this superhealer
    The OP is already a Sorlock build, so technically as long as you never sleep you can accumulate infinite numbers of low-level spell slots before the adventure begins. If you want to accumulate infinite numbers of Aura of Vitality spells you'd need to go to Sorc 5 instead of Sorc 3 (because it takes 5 sorc points to create a 3rd level slot, and you can never have more sorc points than your sorc level). That is pretty cheesey and wouldn't fly at many tables, but the point is that if your DM is going to let you get away with the infinite spell slots trick, you don't have to make a separate character--the superhealer is practically there already.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2015-12-12 at 06:35 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    It doesn't matter how much magical healing is possible on a long rest since everyone heals full on a long rest anyway. Healing on a short rest or no rest does matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It doesn't matter how much magical healing is possible on a long rest since everyone heals full on a long rest anyway. Healing on a short rest or no rest does matter.
    I think you're being pedantic, but okay, to put it in your terms, by 10th level you can be healing 2060 HP of damage with no rest. Then you run out, and you need a long rest to get that 2060 HP worth back. By 15th level you are also healing 480 HP with no rest that recharges on a short rest.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Suggestion: Change the title of the thread to [Insert Name], the superhealer. And have it added in one of the guide threads. It is a good idea and deserves to be there.

    For the paladin variant you mentioned (the one that has only 2 levels of warlock), Ioun stone could be a good magic item for an extra casting of aura of vitality per day.

    I really liked how you analysed the party optimization, however I think that the cleric build's main advantage is that it removes the need of spending hit dice in short rests. So such a character would be able to push a group going and going (ofc the group must survive the encounters, so I guess what you said applies here). But what I am trying to say, is that if the group is well rounded and optimized around short rest powers, they can keep going for a very long time. For example, while a normal group is expected to fight up to X encounters of appropriate challenge per day, a group with that character and a few others that mostly rely on short rest rechargable powers, would be able to fight a lot more encounters during an adventuring day.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Suggestion: Change the title of the thread to [Insert Name], the superhealer. And have it added in one of the guide threads. It is a good idea and deserves to be there.

    For the paladin variant you mentioned (the one that has only 2 levels of warlock), Ioun stone could be a good magic item for an extra casting of aura of vitality per day.

    I really liked how you analysed the party optimization, however I think that the cleric build's main advantage is that it removes the need of spending hit dice in short rests. So such a character would be able to push a group going and going (ofc the group must survive the encounters, so I guess what you said applies here). But what I am trying to say, is that if the group is well rounded and optimized around short rest powers, they can keep going for a very long time. For example, while a normal group is expected to fight up to X encounters of appropriate challenge per day, a group with that character and a few others that mostly rely on short rest rechargable powers, would be able to fight a lot more encounters during an adventuring day.
    Thanks for the kind words. I'm not really into the newfangled build/guide scene so I really don't feel a need to reify the factoid in an optimization guide, but feel free to do whatever you want with the information. (After all, it's right there in the rules, not something I created, and I have no special claim to the info.)

    My observation is that the X encounters per day guidelines are ludicrously easy, to the point where parties can fight essentially infinite numbers of Medium encounters per day, and only Deadly encounters deplete significant resources--but that might be because I instinctively powergame with the mindset I outlined above (trying to nullify entire classes of weaknesses and maximize versatility, with an emphasis on at-will abilities like Sharpshooting/cantrips/Mobile). In short, I agree--it is possible to fight a lot more encounters if you don't rely on long or even short rest powers.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    Dont forget to include widen spell as your other metamagic so your aura can reach out farther if you need it to

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    If UA is permitted, would you suggest the warlock dip being undying light?

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    Default Re: Ridiculously good healer (just for fun)

    If you want a truly ridiculous healer, replacing the fiendlock levels with 5 more Cleric will give you many more prepared spells, higher level slots, and above all additional healing per spell level per round. Which rounds out to be better than the Champion lvl 18 feat when combined with AoV.

    Also, The Goodberry Cheese is doubled when you hit lvl 6 life cleric and that makes it truly competitive with AoV and allows you to hold a Spirit Guardians as you wade into the middle of things. Grab war caster and you are worry free about concentration checks.

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