Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Jormengand]

If you drop an unconscious Dragonborn of Bahamut with the Wings aspect, they take 1d6 points of fall damage because their wings mitigate the damage from the fall, even if the fall wouldn't have done any damage in the first place.

[Andezzar]

If you drop an unconscious Dragonborn of Bahamut with the Wings aspect, they take 1d6 points of fall damage because their wings mitigate the damage from the fall, even if the fall wouldn't have done any damage in the first place.

Maybe that's like falling cats. They are also more injury prone when falling short distances than when falling longer ones (up to a certain maximum).

The dragon wings feat has the same dysfunction.

[The Viscount]

The feat Roll With It allows you to gain DR 2/-. It says you can take the feat multiple times, but not that the effects stack.

[Inevitability]

The feat Roll With It allows you to gain DR 2/-. It says you can take the feat multiple times, but not that the effects stack.

Well, Pun Pun has to take something for his infinite feats...

[Immabozo]

Death does not prevent taking actions or movement. Death caused by means other than hp damage, at least. I have made a case for death by being reduced to -10 also working, in another thread. The counter argument being that you are unconscious. Feel free to read the full thread and argument here.

But, I have not seen a reason why death by anything other than reduced to negative HP (or while at negative HP) would prevent movement, or taking actions

[Jormengand]

Isn't it a pity that Being Dead has been listed in the handbook since the first thread as not preventing you from acting?

[Immabozo]

Isn't it a pity that Being Dead has been listed in the handbook since the first thread as not preventing you from acting?

I was looking for that and I didn't find it. Damnit!

[Immabozo]

How about using IHS, while dead, to end your condition of being dead?

[Jormengand]

How about using IHS, while dead, to end your condition of being dead?

IHS is already dysfunctional, though I'm surprised its ability to affect things it really shouldn't be able to isn't already there.

[Troacctid]

How about using IHS, while dead, to end your condition of being dead?

Death doesn't have a duration. It's an instantaneous effect.

[Bohandas]

Curses and cursed items seem to have all sorts of overpowered broken things going on.

Firstly, as written, buth Bestow Curse and many cursed items seem to be immune to Mordenkainen's Disjunction

Secondly, under the expanded curse rules from Book of Vile Darkness, a curse can affect an unbounded number of creatures with no saving throw (if the curse-ee is cursed to have all who meet them mistake them for a well known and infamous criminal, for example; and since the spell isn't flagged as mind-affecting it even affects obryiths, vampires, and people warded by Mind Blank)

EDIT:
This second issue is shared by the Cloak of Hate spell from Heroes of Horror (anthough Cloak of Hate is flagged as mind-affecting, so it won't affect intelligent undead or people protected by mind blank, but it also can't be cast on them)

[Immabozo]

Death doesn't have a duration. It's an instantaneous effect.

According to what?

[Troacctid]

According to what?

Your soul leaves your body. That's a one-shot effect. It's not just going to come back after 10 rounds--unless you have a citation to that effect?

[Immabozo]

Your soul leaves your body. That's a one-shot effect. It's not just going to come back after 10 rounds--unless you have a citation to that effect?

Do you have a citation that you need a soul as a requisite to do anything in D&D?

[Bohandas]

I have a counter-citation. The Imprison Soul spell (BoVD) rips out a victim's soul without killing them (not immediately at any rate)

[Troacctid]

Do you have a citation that you need a soul as a requisite to do anything in D&D?

That's not the point--the point is it doesn't have a duration, so you can't Iron Heart Surge it.

[Andezzar]

Death doesn't have a duration. It's an instantaneous effect.

Death might be instantaneous, but being dead is a condition that can affect a creature for a period of time.

[Immabozo]

Death might be instantaneous, but being dead is a condition that can affect a creature for a period of time.

My point exactly.

[Troacctid]

So where's the rule that tells you how many rounds it lasts?

[georgie_leech]

So where's the rule that tells you how many rounds it lasts?

Meaning it's dysfunctional in the same way that if you squint at the rules hard enough you can IHS away the sun?

[Andezzar]

So where's the rule that tells you how many rounds it lasts?

There isn't one. But that would only be relevant, if the duration needed to be expressed in rounds. The IHS rules say nothing about that. The dead condition persists as long as nothing removes it. That usually is longer than one round.

[Troacctid]

Meaning it's dysfunctional in the same way that if you squint at the rules hard enough you can IHS away the sun?

How would you even get that out of the text? That makes no sense.

There isn't one. But that would only be relevant, if the duration needed to be expressed in rounds. The IHS rules say nothing about that.

That's literally what Iron Heart Surge says. But okay, if it doesn't need to last a given number of rounds, what is its duration? Because it has to have one.

[Andezzar]

That's literally what Iron Heart Surge says. But okay, if it doesn't need to last a given number of rounds, what is its duration? Because it has to have one.

The condition does not have to have a listed duration, it just has to have a duration of one or more rounds. If the dead condition persists for more than one round, it obviously has a duration of more than one round.

[Troacctid]

The condition does not have to have a listed duration, it just has to have a duration of one or more rounds. If the dead condition persists for more than one round, it obviously has a duration of more than one round.

It has to have a duration in order to have a duration of one or more rounds. So what's its duration?

[Andezzar]

As long as it lasts.

[Troacctid]

And how long is that? Because a duration is an interval, by definition. It has to have a beginning and an end.

[Graypairofsocks]

We can deduce that the duration of the Dead condition is permanent.

[Andezzar]

And how long is that? Because a duration is an interval, by definition. It has to have a beginning and an end.

A finite duration needs to have a beginning and an end, an infinite duration only needs a beginning. IHS does not require a finite duration.

The Duration of the Dead condition is permanent.

Which is longer than one round.

[Troacctid]

Instantaneous effects can have lasting consequences. Doesn't mean they have a permanent duration.

[Andezzar]

Instantaneous effects can have lasting consequences. Doesn't mean they have a permanent duration.

Again, the effect (being killed) may be instantaneous, the condition (dead) is persistent. Also the distinction between an instantaneous effect with lasting consequences and a persisting effect only applies to spells and their interaction with dispel magic and similar abilities. A condition either applies to a character or it does not, if this application lasts the condition has a duration.