Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[Flickerdart]

I would not even go as far as to call it a typo. Compare the two HP lines:

Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
5d10+10 HD

If we disregard the "reminder text" for average HP, we get:

Hit Dice: 5d10+10
5d10+10 HD

This is the same thing as saying "$5" and "5 dollars." There is no dysfunction, it's a different way of writing the same thing. The creature's hit dice, says the text, are 5d10+10. It does not have 5d10+10 hit dice unless you are really determined to read it that way, in which case we really can't help you.

[ShurikVch]

In context though it's clear what they meant, putting it into 'boomerangs do 1d43 damage' typo territory.

No, not exactly.
"1d43" is an obvious mistake: no such die, and 43 is an odd number; 1d10, 1d12, 1d20, or even 1d100 may be much more plausible
On the other hand, there is nothing inherently wrong with "5d10+10 HD", and, if not for example creature, we wouldn't even know it's incorrect

I would not even go as far as to call it a typo.

It is.
"HD" instead "hp"

Compare the two HP lines:

Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
5d10+10 HD

If we disregard the "reminder text" for average HP, we get:

Hit Dice: 5d10+10
5d10+10 HD

This is the same thing as saying "$5" and "5 dollars." There is no dysfunction, it's a different way of writing the same thing. The creature's hit dice, says the text, are 5d10+10. It does not have 5d10+10 hit dice unless you are really determined to read it that way, in which case we really can't help you.

One is from RAW for creature, another - for template; there are two very different things

[Jormengand]

The feat Ride-By Attack is listed as dysfunctional twice. It should be removed from both of them.

The first issue is that ride-by attack and spirited charge only trigger when you charge while mounted, which you can't. Except, they don't require you to charge, only use the charge action. You are using it; you're using it to make the extra attack. Oh, and you also get the benefit of charging when your mount charges anyway.

The other issue is that it is supposedly "Geometrically Impossible" to perform the charge and keep moving in a straight line. Let's have a look at that:

John					X	x	x	x	x
					X	y			x
					x		Orc		x
					x				x
					x	x	x	x	x

John is on a horse, and they are charging an orc. Let's look at how he resolves the charge, shall we?

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

The points marked with an x are the ones that John, with his lance (it has reach) can attack from. The ones with a big X are the two he can charge into, because they're both equidistant due to the totally illogical way diagonals work.

John is going to move to the lower X. He can move to the spot marked y, but no further. Then, his horse can be able to finish its own charge, and kick the orc with reckless abandon.

Suppose John had a sword, instead:

John						X	x	x
						X	Orc	x
						x	x	x

Again, John can ride-by attack to the top X, meaning that he goes in a straight line, completing the charge. Sure, if he goes to the bottom X, he can't continue the charge... unless, of course, he knocks out the orc, rendering him helpless!

(Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

[The Viscount]

I'm willing to agree that the Frenzy dog HD thing is dysfunctional; It's all about how it's presented in the entry. Look at this line.

Hit Dice: All frenzy dogs have 5d10+10 HD.

That says right there, all frenzy dogs have between 15 and 60. Obviously it's not what's intended, but silly RAW/RAI conflicts are completely fair game for the compendium.

Also the template mentions that the target creature "increases in size to Medium-Size." What if the target animal isn't small? Does it increase in size as well, or does it remain?

Furthermore, why does the health change to exactly 5d10+10? It's the only template I've seen that dictates bonus hp.

Even if you disagree, the screwiness with the spell making an exception for dogs definitely puts the spell on the list.


On an unrelated note, Giant-Killing Style is a stance that does something very strange with its wording.

When you are in this stance, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a +4 bonus on damage rolls against opponents of a larger size category than yours. This bonus applies to all attacks you make for the rest of your turn.

Does the bonus run out at the end of the turn, so you have to refresh your stance? Does it apply to all attacks you make that round as long as the first was made against an opponent larger than you? Some third thing?

[InvisibleBison]

On an unrelated note, Giant-Killing Style is a stance that does something very strange with its wording.

Does the bonus run out at the end of the turn, so you have to refresh your stance? Does it apply to all attacks you make that round as long as the first was made against an opponent larger than you? Some third thing?

I'd guess it started as a boost and later got changed into a stance without properly rewriting the description.

Speaking of stances, Leaping Dragon Stance gives a "+10-foot enhancement bonus to Jump checks", which doesn't make any sense.

[Troacctid]

The feat Ride-By Attack is listed as dysfunctional twice. It should be removed from both of them.

The first issue is that ride-by attack and spirited charge only trigger when you charge while mounted, which you can't. Except, they don't require you to charge, only use the charge action. You are using it; you're using it to make the extra attack. Oh, and you also get the benefit of charging when your mount charges anyway.

I'm with you on the other issue, but I think you're wrong on this one. Your mount is using the charge action. You are using the attack action. Or you might not even be using the attack action—you could be using your standard action to initiate a strike maneuver, or using a full-round action to make a Decisive Strike, or any number of other actions that involve a melee attack.

[Jormengand]

I'm with you on the other issue, but I think you're wrong on this one. Your mount is using the charge action. You are using the attack action. Or you might not even be using the attack action—you could be using your standard action to initiate a strike maneuver, or using a full-round action to make a Decisive Strike, or any number of other actions that involve a melee attack.

You are using it: you're making use of it. Just because you're not the one taking that action doesn't mean you're not using it. You can be using a spell you're not casting, for example if that spell is imbue with spell ability. If a feat said "When you use the imbue with spell ability spell to cast a [Fire] spell, that spell does double damage", it's quite clear that you don't have to be the one making the spell to use it, nor do you have to be making the action to use it.

[Troacctid]

You are using it: you're making use of it. Just because you're not the one taking that action doesn't mean you're not using it. You can be using a spell you're not casting, for example if that spell is imbue with spell ability. If a feat said "When you use the imbue with spell ability spell to cast a [Fire] spell, that spell does double damage", it's quite clear that you don't have to be the one making the spell to use it, nor do you have to be making the action to use it.

That feat would be dysfunctional too. The person casting the spell granted by imbue spell ability isn't using imbue spell ability, they're using the spell it granted. The correct wording would be "When you cast a [Fire] spell granted to you by imbue spell ability..."

Similarly, the functional wording for Spirited Charge would be "When attacking from the back of a charging mount..." as seen in the special ability of the lance (which is not dysfunctional).

[Jormengand]

That feat would be dysfunctional too. The person casting the spell granted by imbue spell ability isn't using imbue spell ability, they're using the spell it granted. The correct wording would be "When you cast a [Fire] spell granted to you by imbue spell ability..."

Similarly, the functional wording for Spirited Charge would be "When attacking from the back of a charging mount..." as seen in the special ability of the lance (which is not dysfunctional).

In English, you can use the word "Use" to mean that you are making use of something, even if you're not the one doing it:

"John used Jane's attack as a distraction".
"John used Silverhoof's charge to deal extra damage with his lance."

[Troacctid]

Not in this context. Anyway, your reading is way more dysfunctional. Consider this rule:

Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity.

Under your interpretation, if my unicorn mount casts cure light wounds on me, I have to spend a standard action, concentrate, and provoke an attack of opportunity in order to receive the healing.

[The Random NPC]

[QUOTE=ShurikVch;20999439]Frenzy Dog
Firstly:

Spoiler: New Spell

Show

What's the ..?
Does it mean spell in the article about dogs, which have "Dog" in the name, and applies template which also have "Dog" in the name - actually doesn't works on "dogs and wolves"?
I mean, seriously?!
Then what's about coyotes, dingo, foxes, jackals, raccoon dogs?
Alternately, it may mean - spell actually works on "dogs and wolves", but by different rules.
If yes, then where are those rules?

I read it as only working on dogs and wolves of greater than 2 hd, or that aren't of the animal Type.

[Jormengand]

When someone casts CLW on you, they're using the spell to give you more hit points, because they're taking an action that makes use of the SLA. When someone else riding you attacks at the end of your charge, it is them and not you who is using the charge to attack.

[Malimar]

Frenzy Dog
Firstly:

Spoiler: New Spell

Show

What's the ..?
Does it mean spell in the article about dogs, which have "Dog" in the name, and applies template which also have "Dog" in the name - actually doesn't works on "dogs and wolves"?
I mean, seriously?!
Then what's about coyotes, dingo, foxes, jackals, raccoon dogs?
Alternately, it may mean - spell actually works on "dogs and wolves", but by different rules.
If yes, then where are those rules?

I read it as only working on dogs and wolves of greater than 2 hd, or that aren't of the animal Type.

It affects only normal animals of up to 2 HD, except dogs and wolves.

Seems fairly straightforward to me, and there's no reason to think it works as you think it does. It doesn't work on anything of greater than 2HD, it doesn't work on anything that aren't of the animal type, and it doesn't work on dogs or wolves; it's downright bizarre to conclude that it works on things that have more than one of those qualities.

It turns non-dogs into (frenzy) dogs, and doesn't work on dogs. Why doesn't it work on dogs? Because magic.

It is slightly ambiguous whether it works on riding dogs, but I'd assume not.

There might be animals that use dog/riding dog/wolf statblocks but which are not dogs or wolves -- it says "dogs and wolves", not merely "canids", so e.g. jackals and coyotes are affected by the spell even though one uses the dog statblock for jackals and coyotes.

The bit I'm seeing as ambiguous is "normal" -- does that mean it doesn't work on dire animals? On dinosaurs? On animals with templates (that leave them animals, such as magebred)?

[The Viscount]

Naga Overlord from Serpent Kingdoms grants the Augment followers I and Augment followers III class features. These features are identical, they produce free extend on select spells.

[Troacctid]

When someone casts CLW on you, they're using the spell to give you more hit points, because they're taking an action that makes use of the SLA. When someone else riding you attacks at the end of your charge, it is them and not you who is using the charge to attack.

It is the mount, not the rider, who is using the charge action to attack. The rider is using the attack action to attack.

If you don't like my cure light wounds example, then what if the SLA is jump instead? You cast jump on me, I try to jump, I'm "taking an action that makes use of the SLA", so I have to spend a standard action, concentrate, and provoke an attack of opportunity.

[The Random NPC]

Seems fairly straightforward to me, and there's no reason to think it works as you think it does. It doesn't work on anything of greater than 2HD, it doesn't work on anything that aren't of the animal type, and it doesn't work on dogs or wolves; it's downright bizarre to conclude that it works on things that have more than one of those qualities.

It turns non-dogs into (frenzy) dogs, and doesn't work on dogs. Why doesn't it work on dogs? Because magic.

It is slightly ambiguous whether it works on riding dogs, but I'd assume not.

There might be animals that use dog/riding dog/wolf statblocks but which are not dogs or wolves -- it says "dogs and wolves", not merely "canids", so e.g. jackals and coyotes are affected by the spell even though one uses the dog statblock for jackals and coyotes.

The bit I'm seeing as ambiguous is "normal" -- does that mean it doesn't work on dire animals? On dinosaurs? On animals with templates (that leave them animals, such as magebred)?

I did phrase that poorly, I meant that it works on all animals of up to 2 HD, except Dogs and Wolfs, which may have more than 2 HD or possibly not need the Animal type.

[georgie_leech]

I did phrase that poorly, I meant that it works on all animals of up to 2 HD, except Dogs and Wolfs, which may have more than 2 HD or possibly not need the Animal type.

Eh... while that might make sense, the 'doesn't work at all on them' reading seems the more straightforward.

[The Random NPC]

Eh... while that might make sense, the 'doesn't work at all on them' reading seems the more straightforward.

Perhaps, I'm just pointing out that that was what I understood from the sentence upon first reading.

[Inevitability]

Several prestige classes that grant divine spellcasting give you spells that require a divine focus, but don't tell you what focus the class uses. The Ur Priest is a particularly annoying example.

[Troacctid]

Rules Compendium removes the class-specific language for divine foci. The updated rule: "A divine focus is usually a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith." That's probably good enough to solve the dysfunction.

[Inevitability]

Rules Compendium removes the class-specific language for divine foci. The updated rule: "A divine focus is usually a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith." That's probably good enough to solve the dysfunction.

Problem: an ur priest is pretty much obligated to have no faith.

[georgie_leech]

Problem: an ur priest is pretty much obligated to have no faith.

I'd say no holy symbol is rather appropriate then. But by RAW they really should have spelled something out for them.

[Andezzar]

Problem: an ur priest is pretty much obligated to have no faith.

He can't have faith in deities, but he definitely has to have faith. How else would he believe his shenanigans would work? But I agree a non-existent focus would be appropriate.

[Flickerdart]

An Ur-priest's divine focus is his over-inflated sense of self-importance.

[Gallowglass]

An Ur-priest's divine focus is his over-inflated sense of self-importance.

What's his forum username?

[Jormengand]

In general, an utterance from the Lexicon of the Perfected Map has a range of 100 feet and a range of 60 feet.

At first level, it's recommended that you take the Utterance of Minor Health, which doesn't exist.

The Acolyte of the Ego's Cadence of the Frightful Mind targets him, except that it doesn't target because it has an area.

[The Viscount]

True Necromancer boosts caster level for necromancy spells, slas mimicking necromancy, and when rebuking undead.
Rebuking Undead does not use caster level.

[Inevitability]

True Necromancer boosts caster level for necromancy spells, slas mimicking necromancy, and when rebuking undead.
Rebuking Undead does not use caster level.

Is it still dysfunctional if no one ever uses the class?

[Inevitability]

New dysfunction: Elder Evils, page 57. The description for the temple's library states:

Other books and scrolls here include fairy tales and fiction, a vacuous grimoire, and divine scrolls of lesser animate dead, unholy aura, unhallow, and wail of the banshee.

I'm sorry, what spell again?

[Bucky]

Lesser animate dead is a level 2 Oracle spell that functions as animate dead but limited to one Medium or smaller creature.

Per casting? Or ever? Unclear.