Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific

[ShurikVch]

I don't sure if it was mentioned before, but feats from Willing Deformity line may interact really weird with Zombie template (because it removing all feats).

For example, if character had in life Deformity (clawed hands). So, what's up? Fingers fall off?

Or Deformity (Teeth). He could bite while alive, but not as a Zombie? Really?!

But the funniest thing is for Deformity (gaunt) and Deformity (obese).

Deformity (gaunt):
Just look at it - how stiffly it moves! Undeath wasn't kind to it...
No wonder, now it's twice as heavy as in life. Is it normal? Where it's even hiding all this weight? It's thin as a rake!

Deformity (obese):
Damn, look at it - somehow it became notably more dexterous than in life! Astonishing! And with such girth... But now it's lost about half of it's original weight! Is it a death thing or what?.. And with such girth... Is it bloated with gases?

[PallentisLunam]

For example, if character had in life Deformity (clawed hands). So, what's up? Fingers fall off?

Sure, sounds reasonable.

Or Deformity (Teeth). He could bite while alive, but not as a Zombie? Really?!

Teeth fell out.

Deformity (gaunt):
Just look at it - how stiffly it moves! Undeath wasn't kind to it...
No wonder, now it's twice as heavy as in life. Is it normal? Where it's even hiding all this weight? It's thin as a rake!

It's bones are now filled with super heavy dark energy (fluff problems can always be solved with more fluff)

Deformity (obese):
Damn, look at it - somehow it became notably more dexterous than in life! Astonishing! And with such girth... But now it's lost about half of it's original weight! Is it a death thing or what?.. And with such girth... Is it bloated with gases?

It's still fat but its guts have all spilled out and now it weighs less. Or sure, gasses.

You have essentially answered all of the questions you posed.

[ShurikVch]

Sure, sounds reasonable.

Unlikely: Human Commoner Zombie still able to use it's Club

Teeth fell out.

Let's skip the issue of teeth falling out in only one very specific case, and look there:

Attacks
A zombie retains all the natural weapons

Feats
A zombie loses all feats of the base creature

So, does it mean Zombie with Deformity feats will lose feats, but keep natural attacks? How it's even works?

[Flickerdart]

Having a body part is not enough. For example, no matter how sharp your teeth are, your human mouth is not a bite attack... unless the supernatural power of vile feats makes it so. The zombie loses the supernatural part, and therefore the benefits.

[The Random NPC]

They're all deflection bonuses, they don't stack.

Must have switched to reading the dodge block halfway through deflection. Good to know.

[ShurikVch]

Having a body part is not enough. For example, no matter how sharp your teeth are, your human mouth is not a bite attack... unless the supernatural power of vile feats makes it so. The zombie loses the supernatural part, and therefore the benefits.

which is even worse: AMF will suppress it.

By filing your teeth to points and brutalizing your gums, you gain a hideous smile full of razor-sharp teeth that enable you to make a grisly bite attack.

What's up, teeth suddenly become less sharp?

And moreover - Heroes of Horror, actually, doesn't say anywhere [vile] feats are supernatural abilities, but instead

the version presented here updates and supersedes the one introduced in Book of Vile Darkness.

[PallentisLunam]

Unlikely: Human Commoner Zombie still able to use it's Club

Okay, the first digit of the finger fell off but not the whole finger.

So, does it mean Zombie with Deformity feats will lose feats, but keep natural attacks? How it's even works?

As far as i know there is no way to lose a feat and keep the benefits of that feat. So, they lose the feat and because the natural attacks are the benefit of the feat they therefore lose the natural attack.

[No brains]

As far as i know there is no way to lose a feat and keep the benefits of that feat. So, they lose the feat and because the natural attacks are the benefit of the feat they therefore lose the natural attack.

Theoretically, weapon proficiency sticks around even without the feats that grant it. A skeleton is still proficient with all the weapons it was proficient with in life, even when losing both feats and class levels. Now is this weird exception a quality of weapon proficiency or specifically of the skeleton and zombie templates? That's the question.

[PallentisLunam]

Theoretically, weapon proficiency sticks around even without the feats that grant it. A skeleton is still proficient with all the weapons it was proficient with in life, even when losing both feats and class levels. Now is this weird exception a quality of weapon proficiency or specifically of the skeleton and zombie templates? That's the question.

Well no, not exactly. A skeleton or zombie's weapon proficiencies are granted by its type, without the need for a feat. Skeletons and zombies have the undead type, and undead are proficient with "natural weapons, simple weapons, and any weapon mentioned in its entry."

[Story]

and any weapon mentioned in its entry."

It occurred to me that this could lead to potential dysfunction. i.e. X's entry says something like "X is vulnerable to $WEAPON" which leads to X unintentionally becoming proficient with that weapon. But that would depend on whether there are any entries that say something like that. Anyone know if this is the case?

[Jowgen]

It occurred to me that this could lead to potential dysfunction. i.e. X's entry says something like "X is vulnerable to $WEAPON" which leads to X unintentionally becoming proficient with that weapon. But that would depend on whether there are any entries that say something like that. Anyone know if this is the case?

"Good-aligned silvered weapons" are mentioned in the entry of the pit fiend, as those overcomes its regeneration. That qualify as "any weapons mentioned in its entry" for you?

[Inevitability]

"Good-aligned silvered weapons" are mentioned in the entry of the pit fiend, as those overcomes its regeneration. That qualify as "any weapons mentioned in its entry" for you?

"I, as a pit fiend, lack proficiency with halfling skiprocks."
"How about we cover them in silver and infuse them with the power of Good?"
"Wow! These things are a lot easier to use now that they have the potential to kill me!"

Ah, 3.5 and your silliness.

[Troacctid]

I don't believe you can be proficient with a material, barring oddness like Shaedlings. It would have to be an actual type of weapon.

[Inevitability]

I don't believe you can be proficient with a material, barring oddness like Shaedlings. It would have to be an actual type of weapon.

Citation needed.

[Jowgen]

"Wow! These things are a lot easier to use now that they have the potential to kill me!"

Ah, 3.5 and your silliness.

This actually makes a smidgen of sense when you consider that a Pit Fiends natural attacks overcome DR/Evil as if they were good aligned (not sure about the silver). Not that this quirk of the DR rules makes much sense in the first place, but it's something.

[No brains]

Well no, not exactly. A skeleton or zombie's weapon proficiencies are granted by its type, without the need for a feat. Skeletons and zombies have the undead type, and undead are proficient with "natural weapons, simple weapons, and any weapon mentioned in its entry."

I was pretty sure the templates made specific mention of retaining the weapon proficiency the base creature had in life...

[Debatra]

This actually makes a smidgen of sense when you consider that a Pit Fiends natural attacks overcome DR/Evil as if they were good aligned

Wait, what?

[Jowgen]

Wait, what?

Hmmm... strange. I seemed to recall that this was dropped in some piece of rule-text and intended to avoid the issue of low-level fiends being unable to kill each other due to their DR exceeding their damage. Yet, upon trying to come up with a refernece, the only "overcome own DR" rules I can find are for DR/Magic and DR/Epic.

Perhaps I am mis-remembering?

[Andezzar]

You are misremembering

A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

[PallentisLunam]

I was pretty sure the templates made specific mention of retaining the weapon proficiency the base creature had in life...

Not that I recall or can find. Please cite.

Also if we are talking about human zombies or skeleton's then the base creature is a bog standard human, not a human that took vile feat X. Same can be said for other types of skeletons or zombies

[Malimar]

Not that I recall or can find. Please cite.

No brains is correct.

Attacks
A zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. A zombie also gains a slam attack.

Attacks
A skeleton retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; the skeleton can strike with each of its claw attacks at its full attack bonus. A skeleton’s base attack bonus is equal to ½ its Hit Dice.

As for

Also if we are talking about human zombies or skeleton's then the base creature is a bog standard human, not a human that took vile feat X. Same can be said for other types of skeletons or zombies

It's a template. The base creature can be anything you want it to be. The examples given are examples, not the be-all and end-all of what the template can be applied to.

[PallentisLunam]

It's a template. The base creature can be anything you want it to be. The examples given are examples, not the be-all and end-all of what the template can be applied to.

Sure but when the skills, feats, and class levels all get stripped off you are left with literally the base creature. You're not making a mindflayer wizard 5/fighter 6 zombie that took 3 vile feats. You're making a mindflayer zombie.

It's gets a little weird with creatures that don't have racial hit dice but it's still as close to the unadulterated creature as you can get.

When you take a human that had the Willing Deformity (Claws) feat in life, and make them a zombie, then I guess they retain the proficiency with their claw attacks but without the feat they no longer have a claw attack.

[Malimar]

Sure but when the skills, feats, and class levels all get stripped off you are left with literally the base creature. You're not making a mindflayer wizard 5/fighter 6 zombie that took 3 vile feats. You're making a mindflayer zombie.

It's gets a little weird with creatures that don't have racial hit dice but it's still as close to the unadulterated creature as you can get.

When you take a human that had the Willing Deformity (Claws) feat in life, and make them a zombie, then I guess they retain the proficiency with their claw attacks but without the feat they no longer have a claw attack.

Right.

The weirdness is that it's possible to cast animate dead on a creature with deformity feats, and if you do so, their anatomy changes because they lose their deformity feats.

Not as weird as, say, a beholder slain by negative levels magically turning into a humanoid-shaped wight, but still weird.

[Troacctid]

Given that you can already make a skeleton out of a corpse that still has flesh, which explicitly causes the flesh to slough off, I don't see the issue.

[Story]

I recently tried to figure out whether it is possible to escape a grapple by Alter Selfing into a swarm. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that prevents you from turning into a swarm, but you don't get the swarm traits (such as immunity to grappling). However, your physical form still changes, meaning that your opponent is now grappling a swarm, somehow. There isn't any problem in the rules per se, but the fluff is pretty screwed up there. It reminds me a bit of how 4e Druids can change form into whatever they want, including swarms, but doing so has no mechanical effect.

[Andezzar]

I recently tried to figure out whether it is possible to escape a grapple by Alter Selfing into a swarm. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that prevents you from turning into a swarm, but you don't get the swarm traits (such as immunity to grappling). However, your physical form still changes, meaning that your opponent is now grappling a swarm, somehow. There isn't any problem in the rules per se, but the fluff is pretty screwed up there. It reminds me a bit of how 4e Druids can change form into whatever they want, including swarms, but doing so has no mechanical effect.

Well the problem is casting alter self. You do have to have all necessary components in hand and must succeed at a concentration check. I see that as an alternate form of escape artist. no dysfunction here.The problem is that a swarm is a single creature, despite actually being a bunch of creatures. Alter self only allows to change into one creature at a time.

Unless I miss something, the dysfunction comes in with SU abilities (that change your form). Technically you cannot use them even though they shouldn't be hindered by being grapples (no gestures, speech, material/focus components required).

[Story]

The problem is that a swarm is a single creature, despite actually being a bunch of creatures. Alter self only allows to change into one creature at a time.

Citation? It seems that this line would overrule that, making it a valid target for Alter Self.

For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet

Also, I just found another dysfunction: Magic Circle Against X protects all creatures in range, even your enemies. Hope you weren't planning to use Dominate or anything. It also causes problems with abilities like Malphas's Bird Eye View, because you'll lose control of the raven as soon as you summon it* (until it happens to move more than 10 feet away, at which point you instantly regain control).

* Incidentally, the spell also prevents summoned creatures from appearing in the first place. I am assuming here that the act of summoning can be interpreted as forcing the barrier against the creature, and thus bypasses the normal prohibition on summoned creatures entering the area.

[ShurikVch]

Given that you can already make a skeleton out of a corpse that still has flesh, which explicitly causes the flesh to slough off, I don't see the issue.

Magically accelerated decomposition. What's the problem?

I recently tried to figure out whether it is possible to escape a grapple by Alter Selfing into a swarm. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that prevents you from turning into a swarm, but you don't get the swarm traits (such as immunity to grappling). However, your physical form still changes, meaning that your opponent is now grappling a swarm, somehow. There isn't any problem in the rules per se, but the fluff is pretty screwed up there. It reminds me a bit of how 4e Druids can change form into whatever they want, including swarms, but doing so has no mechanical effect.

It reminded me about this:

[georgie_leech]

Also, I just found another dysfunction: Magic Circle Against X protects all creatures in range, even your enemies. Hope you weren't planning to use Dominate or anything.

In other news, Fireball affects all creatures in its area, even your allies. Hope you weren't planning on them living or anything.

[Story]

I suppose. It just seemed unintuitive to me.