A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Is there a way to count as "large" for the purpose of gaining the wings from the half-dragon template without actually being large? Pretty sure Powerful build isn't good enough. Or are their any 0 RHD 0 LA large races?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Closest thing I can find is RoD half-ogre, which is 0 RHD, +2 LA. At least you can buy that off.

    On the other hand, have you thought of a winged medium race and taking the half-dragon's superior flying to as an upgrade? Air mephlings (+1 LA) have flight 10' perfect. A half dragon flies at 2x land speed, average maneuverability. Could you justify a best of both worlds flight, which would be 60' perfect?

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    Crake's Avatar

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMotives View Post
    Closest thing I can find is RoD half-ogre, which is 0 RHD, +2 LA. At least you can buy that off.

    On the other hand, have you thought of a winged medium race and taking the half-dragon's superior flying to as an upgrade? Air mephlings (+1 LA) have flight 10' perfect. A half dragon flies at 2x land speed, average maneuverability. Could you justify a best of both worlds flight, which would be 60' perfect?
    It wouldn't stack like that. The half dragons only get the 2x land speed flight if they're large, so simply having a flight speed wouldn't modify your current flight speed, and even if it did, it also explicitly says average maneuverability, so just like it overrides your speed, it also overrides your maneuverability.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    And thirdly the winged creature rules do not have a line about overriding an existing flight speed (like most templates that add a movement mode). So a half dragon with wings would have two flight speeds.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Goliaths (Races of Stone, LA: +1) are grow to Large while raging...

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Goliaths (Races of Stone, LA: +1) are grow to Large while raging...
    Only if they take the racial substitution level. And even then, this only helps if they are raging when the template is applied. That does not work for inherited templates, and it is very unlikely with the 10th level of Dragon Disciple.
    Last edited by Andezzar; 2015-12-29 at 08:16 AM.

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    Uncle Pine's Avatar

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    The only option with 0 RHD and LA +0 that I can think of is a 4th level or higher venerable dragonwrought kobold. But it's like one of the cheesiest thing you could bring at a table, and if you're a dragonwrought kobold and you need a flight speed you're better off taking the Improved Dragon Wings feat at 1st or 3rd level (since you can skip the prerequisites) instead of the half-dragon template.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Goliaths (Races of Stone, LA: +1) are grow to Large while raging...
    ... Does that mean that they would grow wings while raging? 'cause that's badass, but not particularly useful.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    The only option with 0 RHD and LA +0 that I can think of is a 4th level or higher venerable dragonwrought kobold. But it's like one of the cheesiest thing you could bring at a table, and if you're a dragonwrought kobold and you need a flight speed you're better off taking the Improved Dragon Wings feat at 1st or 3rd level (since you can skip the prerequisites) instead of the half-dragon template.
    How would you be able to ignore the prerequisites for Improved Dragon Wings simply by being a Dragonwrought Kobold, even at Venerable? There's nothing in Races of the Dragon that allows that, unless you're referring to the uber-cheese of counting as a True Dragon, which is a very iffy proposition to begin with, let alone how cheesy it is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Races of the Dragon, pg 100
    DRAGONWROUGHT
    You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race’s innate connection to dragons.
    Prerequisites: Kobold, 1st level only.
    Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103.
    Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level, during character creation. Having this feat allows you to take the Dragon Wings feat at 3rd level.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Elxir_Breauer View Post
    How would you be able to ignore the prerequisites for Improved Dragon Wings simply by being a Dragonwrought Kobold, even at Venerable? There's nothing in Races of the Dragon that allows that, unless you're referring to the uber-cheese of counting as a True Dragon, which is a very iffy proposition to begin with, let alone how cheesy it is...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Wings
    A kobold with the Dragonwrought feat can take this feat at 3rd level.
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    Necroticplague's Avatar

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Elxir_Breauer View Post
    How would you be able to ignore the prerequisites for Improved Dragon Wings simply by being a Dragonwrought Kobold, even at Venerable? There's nothing in Races of the Dragon that allows that, unless you're referring to the uber-cheese of counting as a True Dragon, which is a very iffy proposition to begin with, let alone how cheesy it is...
    Read Races of the Dragon, sidebar on page 4, and you'll come across this gem
    Quote Originally Posted by RotD
    Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. Races presented in this book that have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, and draconic creatures. Should a creature acquire the dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype.
    Doesn't even require being a True Dragon, simply being a Dragon is enough. Since a Dragonwrought Kobold is a Dragon, it automatically qualifies for anything requiring the dragonblooded subtype, including Improved Dragon Wings.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    ... Does that mean that they would grow wings while raging? 'cause that's badass, but not particularly useful.
    RAW? I don't know but doubt it due to the order the effects are applied.

    At my table? Yes.

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    Uncle Pine's Avatar

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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Elxir_Breauer View Post
    How would you be able to ignore the prerequisites for Improved Dragon Wings simply by being a Dragonwrought Kobold, even at Venerable? There's nothing in Races of the Dragon that allows that, unless you're referring to the uber-cheese of counting as a True Dragon, which is a very iffy proposition to begin with, let alone how cheesy it is...
    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Doesn't even require being a True Dragon, simply being a Dragon is enough. Since a Dragonwrought Kobold is a Dragon, it automatically qualifies for anything requiring the dragonblooded subtype, including Improved Dragon Wings.
    Necroticplague got it right and preceded me.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    ... Does that mean that they would grow wings while raging? 'cause that's badass, but not particularly useful.
    The entry doesn't say they gain wings, there's just a blanket statement that says that large or larger dragons have wings and can fly, and that medium or smaller don't. It seems weird that their wings would disappear and reappear, but also cool. That's magic for ya!

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Count as "Large" for Half-Dragon Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    The entry doesn't say they gain wings, there's just a blanket statement that says that large or larger dragons have wings and can fly, and that medium or smaller don't. It seems weird that their wings would disappear and reappear, but also cool. That's magic for ya!
    Based on context that would refer to the size of the base creature at the time the template is applied, usually meaning birth. At minimum that's RAI, and I think the RAW itself is at most ambiguous on the matter.

    Plus I think it's a natural ability that is not suppressed in an AMF, not a magical ability.

    So most likely size changes would not lead to wing changes. Just be large at the time the template is applied or more likely you need to have a base creature which is naturally large, and not merely magically large at the time of templating.

    I found a list of LA 0-1 large races here:
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