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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Multiclassing...

    From what I have read and what I have heard of multiclassing, it seems that 4th edition multiclassing suffers for 3 main reasons:

    - It is not as good (or as broken) as in other dnd editions.
    - Hybrid classes are a better choice in general.
    - People can not use any feat slots for multiclassing (they need them for other feats).

    I believe the following:

    - Dnd multiclassing in other editions is indeed broken. In 4th it seems underpowered, but is it indeed underpowered? Imho, it is just normal. We just got used to way too powerful multiclassing from other editions and that is why we view 4th edition multiclassing like something very weak and useless.

    - Hybrid classes may be a better choice (according to the opinion of many, that's at least what I have read and heard through the web) but they also can be banned from your DM (hybrid classes may be allowed in a campaign but with caution while multiclassing is always allowed in any campaign by default).

    - This is probably the biggest issue. Having limited feat slots for min-maxing (and let's be honest, we all do min-maxing in order to make our characters good at combat and in order to make combat faster) makes us, even if we take a Multiclass Feat, to almost never take the Power-Swap Feats. The solution here lies, imho, if we rework the feat bonuses and make each feat to give only feat bonuses and not untyped bonuses. That way we will have less min-maxing and more space for empty feat slots and that would allow space for multiclassing.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT: I am also interested in unique Multiclassing characters you may have created (please no Hybrid characters, only Multiclassing ones) and please post a few words about them and how these characters worked in this topic. Thank you.
    Last edited by ARTHAN; 2020-11-09 at 11:04 AM.
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    People get really invested in how multiclassing works, and it doesnít lead to as robust a share of abilities as you can get from other editions, so thatís fair. I get it. Pathfinder added this method, as a later option in PF1 and now as the standard in PF2, but even there itís hard to replicate an even split the way hybrid can. Thatís why it doesnít work as well for all concepts.

    In my experience, taking an initial multi class feat is pretty common (especially since I see a lot of bards at my tables), but power swap feats are indeed rare.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Multiclassing feats are stronger than average and are pretty frequently taken IME. A few powers are sufficiently worth swapping for that spending a feat makes sense, but it's rare and requires a plan.

    "Requires a plan" is a phrase to apply to hybridization too. It's often the best way to shoot yourself in the foot -- messing up a hybrid is easy compared to messing up a regular character. If you don't get a clear and important payoff from going hybrid, you're probably better off without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    EDIT: I am also interested in unique Multiclassing characters you may have created (please no Hybrid characters, only Multiclassing ones) and please post a few words about them and how these characters worked in this topic.
    I like the Blood Mage paragon path because I feel like powerful magic should come with a cost. The problem is, wizard is a terrible class to be constantly injuring itself to deal more damage. I played around with a lot of hybrid ideas for builds to become Blood Mages, but in the end, multiclass was the best. A genasi rageblood barbarian multiclassed into wizard (including at least one powerswap feat) has the toughness to handle Blood Mage's hp-sacrificing as often as desired, plus good defenses and surprisingly strong offense. The barbarian side suffers a bit because the best single weapon to use is a lightning quarterstaff, but it still proved quite effective in actual practice.

    The 'name' of the screaming, electricity-damage-dealing build is, of course, Roar-Shock.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    People get really invested in how multiclassing works, and it doesnít lead to as robust a share of abilities as you can get from other editions, so thatís fair. I get it. Pathfinder added this method, as a later option in PF1 and now as the standard in PF2, but even there itís hard to replicate an even split the way hybrid can. Thatís why it doesnít work as well for all concepts.

    In my experience, taking an initial multi class feat is pretty common (especially since I see a lot of bards at my tables), but power swap feats are indeed rare.
    Yeah, by "multiclassing" I meant taking both the multiclass and the power-swap feats, but I guess taking just a multiclass feat counts like multiclassing too.

    @Dimers:
    That Blood Mage was indeed interesting! A Wizard/Barbarian isn't something you see often.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Regarding my favorite multiclasses (not all my creations, certainly):

    Rogue/Daggermaster MC Avenger. At level 11 (or 13 without Reserve Maneuver) lets you do something like: Oath of Enmity, Shadow Steel Roll (double roll critting on an 18), Low Slash (double roll critting on an 18), AP Circling Predator (2x attacks, both double rolls, critting on an 18). At 17 you can take Tumbling Strike to get Tumbling Strike/Low Slash/Circling Predator even without an AP. Just a lot of fun with a lot of rolls. Symbol of Victory gets you an extra AP.

    Striker Bard (a little unfair because of Bard's ability to multiclass multiple classes)- Bard with MC Sorcerer/power swap for Flame Spiral, Demonskin Adept, MC Psion/powerswap for Brilliant Thought. Can add on MC Monk for Flurry, MC Assassin for Shroud. (MwaO was kicking this one around the other day in Discord)

    Paragon Multiclassing for interesting Essentials features that are inaccessible otherwise. 2 examples: Mia (erachima, maybe?)- Avenger PMC for Dual Weapon Attack. Also Defender Hexblade: (Revenant) Half Elf Gloom Pact Hexblade, MC into the Paladin MC feat that gives you Defender Aura, take Versatile Master for the second half of the feat (don't remember it? It lets you take PMC powers from any class) and use that to poach the Berserker's punishment for violating Defender Aura. Grab Flail feats for extra fun.

    I'll also note that oddly enough, PMCing gets you a second Hybrid Talent feat. Of course, your character starts to get a bit silly then.

    Plaguescarred stuff can also be interesting- Sorcerers can gain a lot from this, potentially; there's a Close Burst 5 fire power at level 3 that you can swap for that's a Pull + attack, and arguably a double attack, that stacks beautifully with Flame Spiral. And Spellscarred Savant lets you recharge arcane powers.

    Traveler's Harlequin gives you all sorts of interesting combinations (again, with being able to MC multiple times).

    On a basic level, MC Shaman and then Mending Spirit is a nice way for a party with one leader to boost in-combat healing significantly.

    MC Fighter with high Con + Dizzying Mace works nicely. Prime examples include hybrid Battlemind|Paladin (pick up Champion of Order so that the encounter power+battlemind mark now does Marked/Dazed/Weakened/-Con to hit/End never, and Intellect Snap is at will Dazed -Con to hit) and Headspin (pure Invoker or hybrid Invoker|Cleric with Dazing implement powers and either a mace that can be used as a holy symbol or Ironscar Rod).

    Vampire is tailor made for MC + Power swapping- MC Sorc for Flame Spiral + Demonskin Adept + Arcane Vampire, MC Fighter for Rain of Blows + Shock Trooper, MC Paladin and powerswap for the Divine Sanction powers (again, credit to MwaO). There's even that whole line of feats based on which power source you hybrid or MC.

    MC Assassin is very powerful on chargers because most of their stuff isn't "bonus to damage rolls."

    Mellored originally built, and others have expanded on, Voidsoul Genasi Fighter|Warden- mark enemies, Second Wind to make them -Wis to hit, Voidsoul to disappear so they can't attack you. MCing Druid can get you a second wind recharge and a U10 utility that lets you disappear another time per encounter, and if you go Reincarnate Champion in epic you can pick up a Seeker utility at 16 that does the same thing.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    There is basically no reason not to take a multiclass feat.

    The power swaps depend heavily on what combination.

    Paragon multiclassing is usually a bad tradeoff but again, for certain builds it has a very specific niche like say, being able to poach Dual Weapon Attack from the Scout.

    Hybrid is both better and worse, again depending on class combination.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by darkdragoon View Post
    There is basically no reason not to take a multiclass feat.

    The power swaps depend heavily on what combination.

    Paragon multiclassing is usually a bad tradeoff but again, for certain builds it has a very specific niche like say, being able to poach Dual Weapon Attack from the Scout.

    Hybrid is both better and worse, again depending on class combination.
    Let's get real, there are PLENTY of reasons people do not take a multiclass feat.

    1st: For the very same reason they do not take Skill Focus or Skill Training.
    2nd: For the very same reason they prefer Hybrid classes (if allowed) over multiclassing.
    3rd: For the very same reason they are not interested in taking a random and weak encounter power.

    Making all feats grant you feat bonuses instead of untyped bonuses can change that, it is an easy and fast fix of the 4e multiclass system because more feat bonuses means less min-maxing feats and that means more free feat slots so here you are; free space for multiclassing and power-swapping and everything!
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    Let's get real, there are PLENTY of reasons people do not take a multiclass feat.

    1st: For the very same reason they do not take Skill Focus or Skill Training.
    2nd: For the very same reason they prefer Hybrid classes (if allowed) over multiclassing.
    3rd: For the very same reason they are not interested in taking a random and weak encounter power.

    Making all feats grant you feat bonuses instead of untyped bonuses can change that, it is an easy and fast fix of the 4e multiclass system because more feat bonuses means less min-maxing feats and that means more free feat slots so here you are; free space for multiclassing and power-swapping and everything!
    Uh, multiclass feats are some of the best in the game (some of them anyways). There are a few builds here and there that might not take them, but most will, given enough time (and this is part of the issue in terms of talking builds- it might be your level 8 feat or your level 14 feat or something, and plenty of people don't get there). A feat for double rolls on melee attacks + holy symbol proficiency (Disciple of Divine Wrath and probably a Symbol of Victory)? A feat for a skill training and an interrupt (Battle Awareness)? A feat for a skill, ki focus proficiency (Rain of Hammers if nothing else), and a Monk Flurry of Blows (Monastic Disciple)? A feat for extra damage instances and Ki Focus proficiency (Shadow Initiate)? And that's not even getting into qualifying for paragon paths, epic destinies, or feats from other classes- which again, you might wait until 8 or 10 or 11 to multiclass.

    The bigger question is whether you end up finding it worth your while to then take additional power swap feats. That trade off *is* often poor, because you're spending a feat AND losing one of your own powers to take one from another class- you really need to have something you specifically want for it to be worth it. Even then, there are plenty of instances you might want to do it- practically any CHA striker is better if they MC Sorcerer and take Novice Power for Flame Spiral. Defenders can poach significant amounts of the Paladin's tricks. Any striker with high strength and Dex (some monks and rogues, oddball vampires) might consider poaching Rain of Blows from the Fighter. Utilities are rarer- there are some (especially at high levels) that are worth it, and dailies are very rarely worth it.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Of note: MwaO's Poachable Powers list, if you're looking for worthwhile powers to poach.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    In my experience,

    The baseline multiclass feats tend to give a pretty good power. I've seen a lot of those in play back when only PHB1 was printed, or on any late-game class that just doens't have a lot of good feats available. It's not uncommon for a build to run out of good other feats in late-heroic or mid-paragon, either.

    Multiclassing to get a particular paragon path is pretty common.

    Power swapping is bad on classes with many powers, and good on classes with few powers. Again, some late-game classes just don't have a good power available at each level. I've rarely seen this in play because those classes weren't popular in the first place; but I've used this myself a couple of times to get a thematically-appropriate power (e.g. Disruptive Strike on a fighter, or Prophetic Guidance on a lazylord).
    Aside from that, a handful of powers are just so ridiculously good that any class wants them if the stat/implement matches up, such as Flame Spiral and Rain of Blows.

    Hybriding is poorly implemented. Most hybrid combinations are annoying to build and just plain suck; and there are a few combos that are sort-of overpowered. Outside of the charop forums, I've met only one player that thought this was worth the effort. Likewise, Paragon MC is poorly implemented and most combinations just plain suck; I've never seen any player do that.

    ... so overall I don't see a problem with the MC feats. I've never seen anyone take the whole set, but so what if they don't?
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2020-11-10 at 11:09 AM.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    If someone says "there is no reason not to take --item X--" I assume they are talking from an optimization standpoint, because really that argument makes no sense otherwise. There are always flavor/RP reasons to do or not do anything. And given that, the Skill Training/Focus feats and weak encounter powers don't even signify, and hybrid is very debatable. The great majority of optimized builds will have a multiclass feat.

    In my experience, multiclassing is usually used for "light" access--that is, because some other class has a couple of feats and/or paragon paths that are highly desirable for the build. Less common is multiclassing with intention to do a power swap--I'm not sure if there are any encounter powers that are good enough for this level of investment on their own, but there are some that are good enough as long as the build is also getting some utility from feat/paragon path access or if the multiclass feat itself is top tier. These can generally be found in the poachable powers list.

    If a build has no other reason to multiclass then it probably wants to take one of the top tier multiclass feats at some point simply because that feat will be stronger than anything else they might take. Melee classes should be looking hard at Battle Awareness and Disciple of Divine Wrath/Hero of Faith, controllers should see if they can access a good at-will-as-encounter power to expand their utility, any non-ritual caster should consider Divine Secretkeeper or Learned Spellcaster, and literally everyone should look at Resourceful Leader.

    I don't agree that making all bonuses from feats into feat bonuses does much to solve the issues with extended multi-classing. There are more than enough feats that won't care about that change and which are generally better than the power swap feats.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    1. I've always found this to be the equivalent of "but Michael Phelps had to spend all that much time in the water to be a good swimmer!" And really if you're going to harp on boring but practical the multiclass feats are a world above _____ Expertise, keeping pace with your weapon/armor/neck and hoping at least one of them has an extra you want to use etc.


    2. other than multiclassing into your hybrid one doesn't really null the other. (and indeed it's another one that makes Paragon MC somewhat feasible with the 2nd Hybrid Talent)

    3. Personally I favor the daily heals.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    "Requires a plan"
    Beautifully put!
    Hybridising can work well but there's also lots of traps and lots of "only ok" options.
    It also usually uses a feat to get back a class feature that you would have lost in hybriding.

    Multiclass entry feats fit into 2 types.
    The ones which are worthwhile because they're a fairly good feat on a character without a plan or where the plan has spare feats
    and the ones which, whether they're any good or not, are part of "a plan".

    I'm inclined to say don't do power swap multiclass feats unless you have a plan
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Right, the daily heals can also be good, depending on what the party looks like. I've mostly been seeing parties with two leaders lately which tends to devalue those, but back when I was running a TacLord as the sole leader it was extremely helpful that three of my party members had daily heals.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by darkdragoon View Post
    1. I've always found this to be the equivalent of "but Michael Phelps had to spend all that much time in the water to be a good swimmer!" And really if you're going to harp on boring but practical the multiclass feats are a world above _____ Expertise, keeping pace with your weapon/armor/neck and hoping at least one of them has an extra you want to use etc.


    2. other than multiclassing into your hybrid one doesn't really null the other. (and indeed it's another one that makes Paragon MC somewhat feasible with the 2nd Hybrid Talent)

    3. Personally I favor the daily heals.
    Since (almost) all of you find multiclassing fine as it is (and I am actually jealous for your viewpoint, I wish I could say and support the viewpoint you guys support), I will try to answer to all of you with the following answer:

    1. According to my dnd experience, people just won't choose to waste a feat to raise a skill most of time. A Shield proficiency (light) can be much more useful, for example, rather than a Skill Training (Thievery). I know that MC feats are skill training in addition to a weak power but does it still worth that single feat slot?

    2. I don't really care (at this point at least) if one nulls the other. Hybrids usually overshadow multiclassing, according to my experience, mostly because of some really good combos. I have heard many people talking about their hybrids but, in order to hear about their multiclass builds, I had to create this thread.

    3. Glad you like some of them, I like healing too, but having just a little healing just once per day doesn't make you a healer and that's the problem imho. It needs more to make you feel you belong to your second class as well as to your first one. Moreover, people tend to like less and more powerful powers most of time rather than many and weak ones iirc.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    1. According to my dnd experience, people just won't choose to waste a feat to raise a skill most of time. A Shield proficiency (light) can be much more useful, for example, rather than a Skill Training (Thievery). I know that MC feats are skill training in addition to a weak power but does it still worth that single feat slot?
    I can answer that. Action economy is ultimately what wins combats. That means that getting an additional power (that isn't a standard action) is a very high-ranking choice for any feat or item.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I can answer that. Action economy is ultimately what wins combats. That means that getting an additional power (that isn't a standard action) is a very high-ranking choice for any feat or item.
    I would had accepted that if drinking a potion wasn't a minor action as well as picking a potion from your belt, pouch, backpack (also a minor action). Now, combine that with a Quick Draw feat and you both draw and drink a healing potion with just a minor action. But your answer is fair and good, though I still think healing potions are much more reliable than a random healing, daily, relatively weak power, so I keep mine opinion instead of yours...
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    I have heard many people talking about their hybrids but, in order to hear about their multiclass builds, I had to create this thread.
    Multiclassing is so common that it rarely deserves mention as its own concept. There are TONS of great builds that use multiclassing, but taking a multiclass feat isn't controversial (unlike hybridization), so people don't feel the need to say "multiclassing is important here" -- they just do it.

    Taking a look at my personal list of designs, only 20% (seven out of thirty-five) don't use multiclassing in some important way.
    Multiclassing only: 17/35
    Hybridization and also multiclass: 11/35
    Hybridization only: 6/35
    Neither: 1/35
    Take the lance charger designs, for example. Fighter and rogue allow access to Surprising Charge feat to add a [W] under certain circumstances, but neither class is good for creating or applying those circumstances. So you start with another class, MC into fighter or rogue, then take Surprising Charge and start dealing substantially more damage with each hit. Multiclassing is important to the build, but since so many builds take MC feats anyway, it's only important to note that you can't multiclass into a different class too -- it has to be fighter or rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    I like healing too, but having just a little healing just once per day doesn't make you a healer and that's the problem imho. It needs more to make you feel you belong to your second class as well as to your first one.
    Incidentally, do you feel it's worthwhile MCing into shaman and then spending a second feat to get a healing power once per encounter?
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    1. According to my dnd experience, people just won't choose to waste a feat to raise a skill most of time. A Shield proficiency (light) can be much more useful, for example, rather than a Skill Training (Thievery). I know that MC feats are skill training in addition to a weak power but does it still worth that single feat slot?
    I see the misconception. No, a MC feat that grants a skill training and a weak power is not worthwhile on its own (although it might be worthwhile for the feat/paragon path/other access it grants). Several MC feats grant strong powers and/or give other strong benefits. Those strong MC feats are the ones that rank highly on almost any build's optimization list.

    I agree that the daily heals aren't that strong in isolation, but they can be strong in the context of party needs. By contrast, the ability on Battle Awareness (1/encounter melee basic as immediate interrupt against adjacent enemy who shifts or attacks someone else) is strong for any melee character with a competent basic melee attack. The ability on Resourceful Leader (+3/5/7 bonus to damage rolls for any ally who spends an action point--or temp HP on a miss) is strong for any character that is part of a party.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Trying to think of any of my builds that don't at least take an MC feat by mid-Paragon...I got none, I think. Hybrid, non-hybrid, doesn't matter; MCing is just very useful. Power swapping is a little more rare, but I definitely do that, too, on a fair amount of builds. Just too many times where either the MC feat itself, or the things it qualifies you for, or the power swaps you can get are too powerful.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    In my experience, the daily heals are taken not to be the primary healer, but specifically to be the backup healer in case the leader goes down.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    In my experience, the daily heals are taken not to be the primary healer, but specifically to be the backup healer in case the leader goes down.
    Of course, but I think something more would be nice...

    @masteraleph:
    I am really jealous of you guys. It seems I was terribly unlucky at my 4th edition gaming experience as well as my 4th edition readings through the web. You have created all those great MC characters and I had to create this specific thread in order to have someone show me how MC can work. Of course, I have still my opinions in many MC-related things, but I am really more happy now.

    @Dimers:
    Do I feel it's worthwhile MCing into shaman and then spending a second feat to get a healing power once per encounter? Do you mean via Power-Swap feats? I do, at some extent. If every feat granted me a feat bonus, letting min-maxing tricks away, I would be more than interested in that "exchange".

    @tiornys:
    I find MC feat powers to be generally of the same level.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    @tiornys:
    I find MC feat powers to be generally of the same level.
    What are you basing that evaluation on?

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    What are you basing that evaluation on?
    MC feats gives you a skill training and some sort of an ability of some class. Since the skills are of equal value, in order to achieve balance, we need the abilities to be of equal value too. If they are not, then that means the balance is not very well thought.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    MC feats gives you a skill training and some sort of an ability of some class. Since the skills are of equal value, in order to achieve balance, we need the abilities to be of equal value too. If they are not, then that means the balance is not very well thought.
    I would advise that you not assume that things are balanced just because they ideally should be balanced. The balance among the various multiclass feats is not consistent. I won't presume to comment on the thinking that went into making them.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    I would advise that you not assume that things are balanced just because they ideally should be balanced. The balance among the various multiclass feats is not consistent. I won't presume to comment on the thinking that went into making them.
    I think you are a little bit harsh to the designers, but nvm that's their problem, not mine.

    @Dimers: and @masteraleph:
    I forgot to ask you, are your MC characters good at PvP?
    Post if you wish to ask about Ruins & Raiders. I do not answer to PMs anymore.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    I think you are a little bit harsh to the designers, but nvm that's their problem, not mine.
    Eh, it's the general analysis of the optimization community that some multiclass feats are much stronger than the others. If that observation is being harsh to the designers then I guess we're being harsh to the designers. But frankly I don't think it's possible to perfectly balance a system like D&D, and I respect 4E for doing a much better job at balance than most RPGs.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    MC feats gives you a skill training and some sort of an ability of some class. Since the skills are of equal value, in order to achieve balance, we need the abilities to be of equal value too. If they are not, then that means the balance is not very well thought.
    There are sooooo many feats in the game that it really shouldn't surprise you that some feats are better than other feats. The same applies to powers. The balance is well thought but by no means perfect.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    Do I feel it's worthwhile MCing into shaman and then spending a second feat to get a healing power once per encounter? Do you mean via Power-Swap feats?
    No, the feat Mending Spirit in Primal Power gives you the shaman's normal healing power 1/encounter. There's no trade. It requires the basic shaman MC feat (Spirit Talker, in PHB2). Unlike most leaders' MC feats, the first shaman one doesn't grant a daily healing power.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    @Dimers: and @masteraleph:
    I forgot to ask you, are your MC characters good at PvP?
    That's not something I evaluate at all. It goes against how I want to play the game -- cooperatively, not competitively.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    There are sooooo many feats in the game that it really shouldn't surprise you that some feats are better than other feats. The same applies to powers. The balance is well thought but by no means perfect.
    While I know what you mean (and I am the first one to admit that 4th ed has its balancing issues), I just look at the imbalances of 3.5th or 5th then look back at 4th ed and, suddenly, 4th ed looks perfect! Lol!

    (I don't say that 3.5th and 5th are bad, I have played them and enjoyed them but, in terms of balance, 4th is the king)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    That's not something I evaluate at all. It goes against how I want to play the game -- cooperatively, not competitively.
    So, I suppose they are untested at PvP but do well at co-op?
    I just wonder, do MC characters do better at any gaming mode (PvP or co-op) in comparison with regular single-class ones? I am asking this because, the way feats are right now (not with feat bonuses in every feat), it seems that MC characters are behind in stats (attack, damage, etc) when compared with non-MC ones. Power-swap feats are really draining you at this demand. But, even without power-swap, taking a shield or armor proficiency (for example) is better than regular MC feats in terms of optimization.
    Post if you wish to ask about Ruins & Raiders. I do not answer to PMs anymore.

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