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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Martial Controller

    I致e decided to revisit my attempts at we organizing 4th e D&D.
    Right now I知 making sure that there is four classes to each power source, each class tied to role. However the martial power source is lacking a controller class. So I知 wondering if I can transform a current controller class into a martial. I was thinking about re-flavoring the Seeker as a martial class.

    Side note; i知 trying to go back to the basics of class design as it was in the 4th players handbook.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Well your first problem is that the seeker is not a controller
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well your first problem is that the seeker is not a controller
    I知 reading it right now and it say controller.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    I致e decided to revisit my attempts at we organizing 4th e D&D.
    Right now I知 making sure that there is four classes to each power source, each class tied to role. However the martial power source is lacking a controller class. So I知 wondering if I can transform a current controller class into a martial. I was thinking about re-flavoring the Seeker as a martial class.

    Side note; i知 trying to go back to the basics of class design as it was in the 4th players handbook.
    Controller is a rather weird archetype. Defining it is odd, because Wizards are swiss army knives and Warlocks/Classic Rogues use a lot of debuffs so the overlap is large.

    I would define a controller as sacrificing actions to reduce the number of actions the enemy can take, acting as a force divider in the opposite fashion of how a leader is a force multiplier. So a martial controller needs to be able to trade actions to take away multiple enemy actions, putting the team out ahead. They are going to have less cinematic ways of doing that then making walls or clouds of noxious gas, unless you go hand grenade ninjas.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    unless you go hand grenade ninjas.
    I was actually thinking along those lines having someone throwing non-magical items like caltrops, marbles, grease, smoke, etc. unfortunately that痴 kind of a gadgeteer and the Artificer has claim that cinematic element. I was thinking about turning the Ranger into a controller due to their connections with traps and snares and using their environment to their advantage.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Martial Controller

    I was actually recently trying to figure out how I would implement a Trapper class for a 4e-derived heartbreaker as a controller for a Device power source (an Alchemist would also be a Device user), but I was having trouble getting it to work right. More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

    Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character. A BFS wielder who uses lots of large swings and cleaving attacks (hitting multiple enemies, adjacent enemies, or a blast) could do the former, whereas a brawler/pugilist character who grapples, trips, pins, and otherwise fights dirty to inflict slow, immobilize, stun, etc could do the latter. I could see knockback, tripping, or DoTs from getting hit by a giant sword that cleaves through multiple targets, but it probably wouldn't do some of the weirder things that controllers can do; this character would be a striker first and a controller second.

    A grenadier could be a controller, by throwing different types of bombs with special effects, but it would be debatable whether they would even be a martial character.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    I was actually recently trying to figure out how I would implement a Trapper class for a 4e-derived heartbreaker as a controller for a Device power source (an Alchemist would also be a Device user), but I was having trouble getting it to work right. More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

    Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character. A BFS wielder who uses lots of large swings and cleaving attacks (hitting multiple enemies, adjacent enemies, or a blast) could do the former, whereas a brawler/pugilist character who grapples, trips, pins, and otherwise fights dirty to inflict slow, immobilize, stun, etc could do the latter. I could see knockback, tripping, or DoTs from getting hit by a giant sword that cleaves through multiple targets, but it probably wouldn't do some of the weirder things that controllers can do; this character would be a striker first and a controller second.

    A grenadier could be a controller, by throwing different types of bombs with special effects, but it would be debatable whether they would even be a martial character.
    Have the powers target the spaces around you or your allies? So if the enemy targets them they get hit with the trap. You could even make them majority reaction powers, picking the locations on your allies turn with the implication they were preset.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    As I continued to ponder on the 渡inja theme I was reminded of a cartoon(Avatar the last Airbender) character that used martial arts to disable the enemy around her. So perhaps someone who is capable of moving around the battlefield a lot without getting attacked combine that with various items that they can throw on the ground. Although this might step on the toes of the monk class.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Anxe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Maybe you just introduce it as a bunch of alternate class features and powers for monks then?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OracleofWuffing's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Kind of had the thought of using whips: tangle someone up to Prone or Immobilize, and then Pull them. Add some Sonic damage burst attacks from cracking the whip, maybe Deafen or Daze as you get stronger. Give it a class feature to make whips do damage, and increase its range as you go up tiers. Sure, whips don't work that way, but if I can have a guy that shouts at people to replenish their HP because he's so courageous, I'll make a shot at having a guy that can whip from farther away because he's good with whips. I don't know if there's enough in there to remain relevant all thirty levels, but there's room to start.

    But, uh, returning that to the idea of applying it to an existing class, uh... Rats. I really want to say, "Take a Fighter, drop Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, Heavier Armor proficiency, and 3 surges per day (so 6+con). Add Whip Training, increase whip damage to 1d8, twice per encounter whenever you [land an attack with a whip weapon whatever the verbiage would be that would allow this to apply to melee basic attacks and powers with the weapon keyword while wielding a whip] you may choose to add Pull (Wis min 1), Prone, or Dazed EONT to the attack, and an at-will power that lets you make a Burst 1 in range of your whip that does 1d6+Wis sonic damage. Avoid selecting powers that aren't controller-y." Thing is, part of what makes Fighters the unofficial martial controllers, is their Defender capability, so it might come out as an even worse Controller than just rolling an unmodified Fighter.

    And yes those Controller abilities should scale with tiers I'm just trying to keep things condensed because I have zero experience in mid or high level play.

    But, uh, if you're just concerned about the Controller role as printed, well, someone at Wizards believes Hunters are Martial and Primal Controllers...
    Last edited by OracleofWuffing; 2021-02-05 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Slowed EONT would be kind of silly for the range of a whip, Daze doesn't make sense but works mechanically.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Eurus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    To be clear, you're talking about a martial but not melee controller? That should be easy enough to do with just refluffing your class of choice, yeah.

    Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...
    Avatar by araveugnitsuga.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Jan 2018

    Default Re: Martial Controller

    I've never been a fan of 4e, and even less of the "role" concept. 5e is better for dropping it.

    That said, the issue of a martial controller always puzzled me. All the other "power sources" had a class for each role (in the pre-Essentials books); but there didn't seem to be a martial controller.

    Someone at my local FLGS 'splained it to me: the archer ranger was supposed to fill that niche. Specializing in distance attacks, it does the most toward battlefield control.

    Like I said, not a fan; but that was my understanding.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Keledrath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...
    Not really? That's just a druid focusing on beast form.

    Honestly, my goto martial controller has always been the Seeker|Ranger hybrid grabbing Archery Mastery for either Clever Shot or Rapid Shot. I've seen about a half dozen variations on this setup using different races, weapons, and paragon paths to accomplish different goals. It's a surprisingly versatile controller.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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