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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Daemon

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    Default Liches.... IN SPACE

    Hey playgrounders, I was looking at the lich template and seeing that they were immune to cold damage, I thought, wouldn't it be cool for liches to fly through space? My only real question is how much damage does pressure inflict in space? I can't find the ruling for it, and I was really curious. Any help would be very awesome. Thanks!

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Whatever the answer is, I'm sure it only applies to the living: people with lungs, blood pressure, eyeball fluids
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    >PCs ravage through Lich's fortress (on earth)
    >Lich states he can live in outer space, but the PCs can't
    >"DESTROY THE PLANET!!!!"

    Honestly, the idea is so awesome you should ignore all rulings (even if they actually exist) and just allow it.

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    There's no pressure in space - it's the lack of pressure, and the temperature extremes & radiation (heat from the sun when exposed) that kill you.

    I would put a maximum limit on how far a lich can travel in space from its phylactery before it loses the ability to reform... at which point you can treat it sort of like the NBSG Cylons with their resurrection ship.

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Pressure(exerted inwards or outwards) has been done as bludgeoning, untyped, and even [new type] damage. This is in addition to the cold damage resulting from both temperature rules and when space was done as cold damage rather than pressure damage.

    I believe Elder Evils and Stormwrack both had relevant rules however a DM ruling is probably a better way to go that choosing which RAW applies.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    There's no pressure in space - it's the lack of pressure, and the temperature extremes & radiation (heat from the sun when exposed) that kill you.

    I would put a maximum limit on how far a lich can travel in space from its phylactery before it loses the ability to reform... at which point you can treat it sort of like the NBSG Cylons with their resurrection ship.
    Having come back when my phylactery was on another plane (I sure hope that was RAW legal), I'm hoping liches > necrons / cylons.

    Liches are magically hardened bone. I imagine their DR is similar to rock's hardness, so, unless there is evidence that the moon is taking damage from being in space, I can't see liches having any trouble.

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    An interesting idea. But if you are needing a reference to how undead would be for outer space, I would suggest looking at white wolf's World of Darkness - Mirrors: Bleeding Edge. Though for the WOD system, there is good information as to how undead creatures would be in an cyberpunk or outer space themed game that can be translated to whatever system your running.

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    The pressure difference between outer space and sea level is about the same as the difference between sea level and 10 meters below the water. That's it. The main problem for humans would probably be gases and even fluids from our blood escaping through our lungs or some other "we didn't evolve for this crap" stuff. A creature made up of enchanted bones? Shouldn't have a problem. Even if theoretically for some reason the inside of his bones is pressurized without a way to let the pressure off the walls should hold just fine.

    The cold is also not much of a problem. While space is really cold there isn't a good way to cool off in space, since there is no air to conduct heat to. The same reasons that make you cool off quicker in cold water or a cold wind than in cold still air make you cool off only really, really slowly in space. I don't know if liches produce any kind of magical body heat, probably not, but even without that they'll stay warm for a while, especially since...

    Radiation is a problem. If you're in a part of space where you can see the sun you're going to be warming up. Without a good way to cool off, the temperature is going to rise quickly, and eventually get too high even for a skeleton to handle. Although admittedly that might take a while. A lich traveling through space is probably going to have to find a way to stay in the shadow for much of the time.

    That might seem doable for say a trip to the moon, both solar and lunar eclipses are possible. But by far the easiest way to travel through space is to obtain an orbit. If you're in an orbit around earth you can speed up to widen that orbit, and eventually match the moons orbit. If your timing is right, you even end up in the moons orbit at the same point where the moon is at that moment. If you want to stay in the shadow you're going to have to fight your way straight up for most of the journey, which is a lot like just flying straight up back on earth. The moon is somewhat less than 50,000 times as far away from the surface as the top of mount Everest is (384,400 kilometers, according to google). This means Xykon wouldn't make it, because after 8 hours of flying he'd have to rest, and resting in non-orbital flight means falling straight back down. But if he's smart he could probably fashion some sort of reflective solar shield (and it will have to be pretty reflective, or the shield itself will heat up too much), and just hide behind it much of the time. That way he can use the orbital method of going up. It's a bit of a time waster, but in the end, yes, I do believe a lich could travel to the moon, or even beyond.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Aww, I thought we were going to discuss undead space overlords in a scifi fantasy setting.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    But how does the lich get all the way to space-

    Oh, right. Fly spell. So simple.

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    That might seem doable for say a trip to the moon, both solar and lunar eclipses are possible. But by far the easiest way to travel through space is to obtain an orbit. If you're in an orbit around earth you can speed up to widen that orbit, and eventually match the moons orbit. If your timing is right, you even end up in the moons orbit at the same point where the moon is at that moment. If you want to stay in the shadow you're going to have to fight your way straight up for most of the journey, which is a lot like just flying straight up back on earth. The moon is somewhat less than 50,000 times as far away from the surface as the top of mount Everest is (384,400 kilometers, according to google). This means Xykon wouldn't make it, because after 8 hours of flying he'd have to rest, and resting in non-orbital flight means falling straight back down. But if he's smart he could probably fashion some sort of reflective solar shield (and it will have to be pretty reflective, or the shield itself will heat up too much), and just hide behind it much of the time. That way he can use the orbital method of going up. It's a bit of a time waster, but in the end, yes, I do believe a lich could travel to the moon, or even beyond.
    This seems like a really informed and well-thought out theory. My question is, why not just teleport to the moon?

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    But how does the lich get all the way to space-
    Oh, right. Fly spell. So simple.
    Alternatively, a lich could teleport themselves into space. Nothing in the spell forbids you from going straight up. Just have to achieve an orbital speed when they get there.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Radiation is a problem. If you're in a part of space where you can see the sun you're going to be warming up. Without a good way to cool off, the temperature is going to rise quickly, and eventually get too high even for a skeleton to handle. Although admittedly that might take a while. A lich traveling through space is probably going to have to find a way to stay in the shadow for much of the time.

    That might seem doable for say a trip to the moon, both solar and lunar eclipses are possible. But by far the easiest way to travel through space is to obtain an orbit. If you're in an orbit around earth you can speed up to widen that orbit, and eventually match the moons orbit. If your timing is right, you even end up in the moons orbit at the same point where the moon is at that moment. If you want to stay in the shadow you're going to have to fight your way straight up for most of the journey, which is a lot like just flying straight up back on earth. The moon is somewhat less than 50,000 times as far away from the surface as the top of mount Everest is (384,400 kilometers, according to google). This means Xykon wouldn't make it, because after 8 hours of flying he'd have to rest, and resting in non-orbital flight means falling straight back down. But if he's smart he could probably fashion some sort of reflective solar shield (and it will have to be pretty reflective, or the shield itself will heat up too much), and just hide behind it much of the time. That way he can use the orbital method of going up. It's a bit of a time waster, but in the end, yes, I do believe a lich could travel to the moon, or even beyond.
    The bright side of the moon is ~116 celcius, that's pretty much what a lich would expect to deal with in terms of radiation and heat. Is a lich damaged by being submerged in boiling water? I seriously don't know the answer to that.

    The overland flight spell can take you 102km in 8 hours, Xykon could cast that like... 6(?) times without resting. So about 600km, which is 200km above the ISS.

    That is assuming a fly spell works by spacial translation rather than acceleration. D&D bad physics aside I'm gonna assume that it works by anti-gravity plus acceleration and the max speed is because of air drag.

    Overland flight lets you travel 40 feet in 1 round, or ~2m/s. Lets assume you get to keep a constant acceleration of 2m/s^2 for 8 hours, you'd only need 1800 seconds (30min) to reach a velocity of 12km/s, which is beyond escape velocity. So a single overland flight could let Xykon reach the moon. Though he'd have no way of knowing his speed and would almost certainly miss. Just teleporting to the moon would be a lot simpler. Greater Teleport has no speed limit and seems to cancel out relative velocity. (Otherwise you'd be flung to the side at break neck speed if you'd teleport to another part of a rotating sphere)
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Vampire the Requiem actually covered this at one point (alongside one of my favorite developer commentaries: "What the hell kind of chronicle are you running, anyway?!"). The essence of it is that the vampires wouldn't be done in by the passive problems of space. They'd take some damage as their bodies collapsed, but because they don't actually need their organs working at all, much less in the highly precise manner the living need to, once the preasure adjusts, they're fine until they see sunlight.

    Liches have even less to worry about. They have no inner pressure to re balance, no organs that are required at all, no tissue whatsoever for radiation to corrupt (and no natural growth in their bones either). So frankly, a lich would probably be perfectly fine in space barring something like falling into a star, black hole or meteor or whatnot.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Similarly how far below sea level could a Lich go before he gets crushed? If even? I'm 8k XP from becoming a Lich in my campaign and I've got a good idea for where to store my phylactery.

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    I shall imagine the GM flipping the entire game table, with all the character sheets and minis and maps flying into the air...

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Where's Aotr's? He should know a lot about space-liches.

    ...

    I meant because he's smart, not just because he is a space-lich, though that is also a factor. Plants might not always know stuff about botany, but when they do, they really do.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    But how does the lich get all the way to space-

    Oh, right. Fly spell. So simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douche View Post
    This seems like a really informed and well-thought out theory. My question is, why not just teleport to the moon?
    Oh, right, I was indeed thinking of flight magic, but D&D had better things than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    The overland flight spell can take you 102km in 8 hours, Xykon could cast that like... 6(?) times without resting. So about 600km, which is 200km above the ISS.
    I was going by the comic where he complained he could only craft items for 8 hours a day, but flying probably works differently from crafting, due to being a "short time" activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    That is assuming a fly spell works by spacial translation rather than acceleration. D&D bad physics aside I'm gonna assume that it works by anti-gravity plus acceleration and the max speed is because of air drag.

    Overland flight lets you travel 40 feet in 1 round, or ~2m/s. Lets assume you get to keep a constant acceleration of 2m/s^2 for 8 hours, you'd only need 1800 seconds (30min) to reach a velocity of 12km/s, which is beyond escape velocity. So a single overland flight could let Xykon reach the moon. Though he'd have no way of knowing his speed and would almost certainly miss. Just teleporting to the moon would be a lot simpler. Greater Teleport has no speed limit and seems to cancel out relative velocity. (Otherwise you'd be flung to the side at break neck speed if you'd teleport to another part of a rotating sphere)
    It's even better/worse than that. You have to spend at least part of your first turn speeding up, so the top speed you reach while traveling 40 feet in that six second round is up to two times higher than the average speed. The distance to the moon only looked large because I'm stuck in an environment with air.

    So your method works (assuming flight spells do indeed work by acceleration rather than some magical speed limit). Gravity might slow down his acceleration while going straight up, but it's converted into height gained, which has exactly the same effect as far as escaping earths gravity is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    The bright side of the moon is ~116 celcius, that's pretty much what a lich would expect to deal with in terms of radiation and heat. Is a lich damaged by being submerged in boiling water? I seriously don't know the answer to that.
    I didn't think about it like that, but that's a really clever way of getting an estimate for how hot things get in space. Normal bone would probably wear from being exposed to conditions like that, but magically hardened material, especially with a protection from whatever spell on top (which I forgot to account for)? The lich is safe after all.

    So, correction, a lich couldn't just travel to the moon, it'd only be a trivial and temporary challenge.

    Man, I hope there are no d&d based planets anywhere near here. Or maybe liches are secretly vulnerable to hard radiation or something, gives them bone cancer.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2016-01-04 at 09:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Reathin View Post
    they're fine until they see sunlight.
    Which is going to suck extra hard for the vampire since it's now unfiltered sunlight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reathin View Post
    So frankly, a lich would probably be perfectly fine in space barring something like falling into a star, black hole or meteor or whatnot.
    Other liches.


    Depending on the setting, could also be hindered by Spelljamming ships.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    The overland flight spell can take you 102km in 8 hours, Xykon could cast that like... 6(?) times without resting. So about 600km, which is 200km above the ISS.
    He'd also need the Silent Spell feat, or a helmet full of air. In space, no one can hear your verbal spell components.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Any Lich worth its weight in Gold has that feat anyway. ;)

    And just let me say: love the direction of the thread so far. :)

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    He'd also need the Silent Spell feat, or a helmet full of air. In space, no one can hear your verbal spell components.
    If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it still make a sound? And if a lich yells in space and it doesn't make a sound, does it still count as a verbal spell component?
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    And if a lich yells in space and it doesn't make a sound, does it still count as a verbal spell component?
    I do not believe it does. There needs to be sound.

    From the online SRD:
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    Verbal (V)-
    A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.


    And this spell:

    Silence [Illusion (Glamer); Level: Bard 2, Cleric 2]
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    Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.


    I've always interpreted this to mean all spells with a Verbal component needs to be audible to work. Silence (from any source) would logically block such spells. Hence, the Silent Spell metamagic feat is useful to get around it.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Sounds like you need a psionic lich! No verbal components (or, indeed, any kind of components), and none of that spellbook nonsense.
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post

    Man, I hope there are no d&d based planets anywhere near here. Or maybe liches are secretly vulnerable to hard radiation or something, gives them bone cancer.
    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post


    Other liches.
    What else does the sun burn?

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    What else does the sun burn?

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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    I've been to space in D&D before. Shenanigans and a Monty Haul DM were involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rooster707 View Post
    Now, why do you think he is a lich?
    Well, he looks like one.
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    d20 Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    I've honestly been fascinated with direct space travel after passing up an amulet of natural armor for a necklace of adaptation, albeit for a living character, obviously; I figured most of the other dangers could be mitigated via endure elements and protection from energy (cold/fire). Radiation could possibly be dealt with using neutralize poison (or antitoxin in a pinch) if you treat it as a poison, or if you treat it as a disease, well… the character's got some fair hit points and a decent Fortitude save.

    The epic spell, nailed to the sky, lists vacuum as inflicting 1d4 damage per round (and suffocation), which may not seem like much… but the keep in mind your average person is a 1st-level commoner with 2 hp, and your average combatant a 1st-level warrior with 5 hp. I'd peg astronauts closer towards warriors due to their extensive training, or at least experts. So, let's say a 5 hp astronaut finds himself in the vacuum of space and takes, say, 3 hp damage. Ouch. Six seconds later he takes another 3; now he's at –1, unconscious, and (internally?) bleeding to death.

    1d4 may not be much for your typical D&D character, but for us lowly humans I'd say it still makes it fairly easy to die in vacuum in less than a minute.

    (Especially when high-level characters could reasonably survive being exploded with dynamite or being submerged in lava; I fail to see why they should still be held to our standards of, um… dying?)
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    Default Re: Liches.... IN SPACE

    Quote Originally Posted by Âmesang View Post
    I'd peg astronauts closer towards warriors due to their extensive training, or at least experts.
    I'd say experts, though in the early space program days, your typical astronaut was a military test pilot who faced danger the way most of us face a cup of coffee in the morning. Maybe they multi-class?
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