Dark Abyssal Mills

[Kami2awa]

This post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...val-pathfinder

Got me thinking about a D&D (or similar fantasy game) set within a world that's undergoing an industrial revolution. My first thought was "isn't that just Eberron?", but Eberron has already had the industrial revolution, and furthermore technology in Eberron is often "magitech" - magical effects applied to create technology.

What I am considering is a world similar to the Discworld during the later books of the series, where non-magical innovations such as mass production and steam power are changing the world, possibly not for the better.

This would probably need to be a low-level (or low-magic) world. Factories are staffed by people, not animated undead, and the steam train is not in competition with teleportation.

Or perhaps there's a limitation to magic that stops it being used on a grand scale, such as depleting the mana available in one place too quickly. A few wizards throwing fireballs won't make a dent in the supply, but those who try to feed and clothe everyone entirely by magic find that the wells of mana run dry almost immediately. Production lines do the job far more effectively. It makes sense in such a world to pursue technological solutions rather than learning magic.

Industrialisation in this setting is not to the benefit of all. The dark lords of this world are not cackling necromancers but unscrupulous aristocrats and factory owners whose oppressive, coal-dust blackened empire is ever expanding. The forests of the druids, elves and sylvan races are fading away. Machinery that should give everyone all that they need never quite seems to do so.

Interesting world, or not?

[Arbane]

Industrialisation in this setting is not to the benefit of all. The dark lords of this world are not cackling necromancers but unscrupulous aristocrats and factory owners whose oppressive, coal-dust blackened empire is ever expanding. The forests of the druids, elves and sylvan races are fading away. Machinery that should give everyone all that they need never quite seems to do so.

Interesting world, or not?

Sounds like the setting of the Arcanum CRPG, which I've heard good things about.

It could be an interesting setting, but consider - what can the PCs _do_ in this world?

[Talion]

The trick to something like this is that there has to be a reason to pursue technological advancement in the face of readily available, consistently safe and effective magic. This is difficult to justify with the base D&D system, which is highly dependent on magic, but:

1. Magic actually being uncommon is important. The less common the better. It may even help to have races physically incapable of using magic at all in this regard.
2. Magic must also have finite limitations in what it can do and how often it can do it.
3. Technology will still only rise to the natural level that it makes up for what magic isn't capable of handling.
4. It may also help to make the use of magic dangerous in some fashion, as opposed to a guaranteed yes/no.

Once these primary issues are accounted for it becomes more plausible to have a higher technological level. That is, of course, in regards solely to verisimilitude towards natural evolution of the world, as any world may have been intentionally created by divine forces may be comprised of any number of wacky, counter-intuitive mixes between magic and technology.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Personally, I've always been annoyed by the strain of Luddism in most of these `Fantasy Industrial Revolution` settings (Arcanum being a particular bone of contention). If it were up to me, John Henry would die with his hammer in a somewhat less dignified location.

[FlumphPaladin]

Any thread whose title is a reference to "Jerusalem" is on the right track already, and the post sounds like a great setting too!

TheTeaMustFlow has a good point, and I might even suggest not making any built-in value judgments on the Industrial Revolution, but letting your players decide it for themselves. You as DM may need to challenge them and get them to start thinking for themselves to accomplish that, though, and that while being careful not to fall into the "freethinkers think like me" trap.

[Douche]

Sounds like the setting of the Arcanum CRPG, which I've heard good things about.

It could be an interesting setting, but consider - what can the PCs _do_ in this world?

Yep, that's about right.

Also, in that setting, magic and technology are diametrically opposed. Mages aren't allowed near factories or on trains, because magic causes machinery to malfunction or explode. They can't even wield guns cuz it could explode in their hand.

Meanwhile, magic communities don't like technology being brought around, because it makes their magic weaker.

[Arbane]

Personally, I've always been annoyed by the strain of Luddism in most of these `Fantasy Industrial Revolution` settings (Arcanum being a particular bone of contention). If it were up to me, John Henry would die with his hammer in a somewhat less dignified location.

At least at the start of the Industrial Revolution, it was pretty justified - factory work was dirty, grindingly hard, and dangerous. London had 'killer fogs' from air pollution, safety precautions were near-to-nonexistent, and trying to unionize would get you a severe beating AT BEST.

[AMFV]

Definitely an interesting world, I'm not sure that D&D would be your best bet for simulating it. Possibly E6 D&D (where magic isn't quite as impressive) would work. Or you could have a world were there are fewer higher level characters and magic isn't as common, making magical casters freakishly uncommon reduces their impact on the real world.

Edit : Or you could go the Shadowrun route. Have the world exist at an industrial level THEN add magic to it, that would explain why it is the way it is, and you'd have a Victorian Fantasy type setting.

Alternatively, you could just not explain it, after all D&D doesn't go into economics and the evolution of the world much, and it's not missed at many tables.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

At least at the start of the Industrial Revolution, it was pretty justified - factory work was dirty, grindingly hard, and dangerous. London had 'killer fogs' from air pollution, safety precautions were near-to-nonexistent, and trying to unionize would get you a severe beating AT BEST.

Yes. You were also substantially less likely to starve to death.

[goto124]

... but... magic?

[Arbane]

Yes. You were also substantially less likely to starve to death.

Maybe not, unless you've got a citation I don't have?

(People going from farms to cities making them less likely to starve doesn't quite compute, unless you're talking about the Irish Potato Famine and such.)

[Madbox]

It could get dicey, depending on your DMing style. I mean, for example, would it bother you if a player went "Well, my character has 17 INT, so I should be capable of figuring out how to make a revolver"? Let's face it, if you have tech, someone is going to want a gun. Even if you say that they have to learn blacksmithing, since guns need special kinds of steel shaped in just the right way, and then say they need alchemy to use gunpowder, and they need to make several knowledge checks that result in them blowing themselves up if they fail, and a bunch of other stuff, some players will still go for it.

Are you willing to put up with that sort of thing? If there are steam engines, they could build a tank. Players have the advantage of living in a world that has already gone through the industrial revolution, and can use that history for ideas for machines. Are you okay with them having that sort of power, or are your players mature enough to not go crazy with the metagaming potential? If the answer is yes, then this could be a fun, interesting setting. If the answer is no, then this will not work.

You could try to say that physics and chemistry in this setting are not strictly the same as in the real world to prevent it, but I suspect that players would be annoyed over that sort of thing.

[Kami2awa]

It could get dicey, depending on your DMing style. I mean, for example, would it bother you if a player went "Well, my character has 17 INT, so I should be capable of figuring out how to make a revolver"? Let's face it, if you have tech, someone is going to want a gun. Even if you say that they have to learn blacksmithing, since guns need special kinds of steel shaped in just the right way, and then say they need alchemy to use gunpowder, and they need to make several knowledge checks that result in them blowing themselves up if they fail, and a bunch of other stuff, some players will still go for it.

Are you willing to put up with that sort of thing? If there are steam engines, they could build a tank. Players have the advantage of living in a world that has already gone through the industrial revolution, and can use that history for ideas for machines. Are you okay with them having that sort of power, or are your players mature enough to not go crazy with the metagaming potential? If the answer is yes, then this could be a fun, interesting setting. If the answer is no, then this will not work.

You could try to say that physics and chemistry in this setting are not strictly the same as in the real world to prevent it, but I suspect that players would be annoyed over that sort of thing.

It's not necessarily a terrible thing... for every innovation the PCs produce, the bad guys can make it too (and quite often they have more resources and manpower than the PCs). Furthermore, you could have a system of skill checks needed to operate any such machine... we have got used to user-friendly, reliable interfaces, but the prototype of such a machine is likely to be anything but.

[Douche]

It could get dicey, depending on your DMing style. I mean, for example, would it bother you if a player went "Well, my character has 17 INT, so I should be capable of figuring out how to make a revolver"? Let's face it, if you have tech, someone is going to want a gun. Even if you say that they have to learn blacksmithing, since guns need special kinds of steel shaped in just the right way, and then say they need alchemy to use gunpowder, and they need to make several knowledge checks that result in them blowing themselves up if they fail, and a bunch of other stuff, some players will still go for it.

Are you willing to put up with that sort of thing? If there are steam engines, they could build a tank. Players have the advantage of living in a world that has already gone through the industrial revolution, and can use that history for ideas for machines. Are you okay with them having that sort of power, or are your players mature enough to not go crazy with the metagaming potential? If the answer is yes, then this could be a fun, interesting setting. If the answer is no, then this will not work.

You could try to say that physics and chemistry in this setting are not strictly the same as in the real world to prevent it, but I suspect that players would be annoyed over that sort of thing.

If the steam engine was just invented, it's gonna be hard building a tank that will maneuver anywhere with it. Trains and steamboats were around for nearly 200 years before tanks were ever used in WWI, and even those required a platoon to support them and make sure they don't die from running over a stump.

Anyway, if we have all this knowledge about science and chemistry that didn't exist back then, what's stopping anyone from creating a steam engine in a stone-age type setting? Thermite is ridiculously simple to make and it burns at 4000 degrees. Why don't all PCs carry around thermite and instantly kill everything, or burn through every door or obstacle that comes their way?

[Vitruviansquid]

I think infinitely more interesting than a world where technology is replacing magic or technology is in opposition to magic would be a world in which technological development changed the nature of magic.

In the age when wild beasts were the paragons of might, shapeshifters would transform into bears. In the technological age, shapeshifters transform themselves into great wheeled vehicles or mighty pistons. With new understandings of the elements, there are smog mages and steam mages. The ol' Acid Arrow is of course considered quaint and old-fashioned now; wizards tend to go for the Dissolving Bullet instead, and why protect yourself with Stone Skin when there's Dermis of Galvanized Steel?

[Douche]

I think infinitely more interesting than a world where technology is replacing magic or technology is in opposition to magic would be a world in which technological development changed the nature of magic.

In the age when wild beasts were the paragons of might, shapeshifters would transform into bears. In the technological age, shapeshifters transform themselves into great wheeled vehicles or mighty pistons. With new understandings of the elements, there are smog mages and steam mages. The ol' Acid Arrow is of course considered quaint and old-fashioned now; wizards tend to go for the Dissolving Bullet instead, and why protect yourself with Stone Skin when there's Dermis of Galvanized Steel?

I think you're onto something there, but I prefer to divorce magic and technology entirely.

In medieval times and before, when people didn't understand something, they rationalized it with magic. The suns path through the sky was actually a dude in a chariot. People getting depressed were actually plagued by demon spirits... I dunno, you get the picture. But as scientific progress began to explain these things to us, the mystery and magic began to fade from out world. As we began to understand the natural phenomena that occur in the world, we began to disbelieve that - for instance - offerings to a god would cause a bountiful harvest.

For that reason, I think it's a cool concept to relate that to D&D, in a world where magic actually does exist. Magic, elemental spirits, and godlike beings did rule over humanity at one point, but at the advent of technology like the steam engine, or advances in medicine, it no longer becomes necessary to live at the mercy of the natural world, since humanity is capable of creating their own synthetic solutions to all these problems. As a result, you see mages, druids, and the like have much less prevalence in those societies. While magic was a reality in that world, it was really only available to an elite class... You don't see peasants creating golems to tend to their crops. As technology becomes more readily available, you see the power shifting to the common man.

Magic is becoming obsolete, and increasingly is only studied by more esoteric shut-ins, or wizarding societies that don't interest themselves in everyday drudgery. They become the philosophers and scholars of the world, concerning themselves with abstract knowledge that might not have a direct application in the world. Meanwhile, the engineers and inventors of the world create direct solutions to increase quality of life for everyone. Nietzsche may have said "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." but that doesn't change anyone's life (and honestly is a non-statement, if you ask me). On the other hand, Bill Gates created the PC and made life easier and more efficient for billions of people, every day. Which one do you think the common man would look up to more?

Anyway, I just think it's interesting to treat magic like that in a fantasy setting. It's a a sort of game-of-opposites. Magic would still have applications in a fantasy game like this. Like, ya know, summoning, mind control, combat magic n such. So it wouldn't be as black-and-white as philosophy versus computers. But at the same time, you would see magic becoming more of an abstract concept. People would find it pointless to bring a ball of sulphur & bat guano and try to please old hermit on the outskirts of town in hopes that he would make their field more fertile... when they could just pay $15.99 for "Scotts 15 lb. 5 M Turf Builder Weed and Feed ^TM". At the same time, you'd have people who are resistant to change and fear all the new innovations happening every day; loud factories, steel framed tenement buildings going 10x as high as people ever thought possible, people flocking to overpopulated cities instead of the tiny villages they once lived in.

I dunno, I just think that idea sounds cooler than "magic guns"

[goto124]

Considering how technology does have many drawbacks, especially the early stages of technology, magic in such a case would have to be full of flaws that make it less "worth it" than technology.

Also, we'll have to define "magic" and "technology". Why is "magic" not just another type of "technology", the way "biology" and "physics" are different branches of "science"?

[Kami2awa]

If the steam engine was just invented, it's gonna be hard building a tank that will maneuver anywhere with it. Trains and steamboats were around for nearly 200 years before tanks were ever used in WWI, and even those required a platoon to support them and make sure they don't die from running over a stump.

That's kind of what I was thinking. If the PCs want to run a primitive steam tank, then it takes the whole party to run it - a whole sequence of skill checks in Initiative order, with the cleric at the back praying that it doesn't explode.

[Milodiah]

Keep in mind that in the Discworld 'verse, magic really is dangerous and difficult. It's often stated that wizards strongly argue that doing a spell in just the wrong way can make things from the Dungeon Dimensions come and 'stitch you right up', and that they usually have to go and lie down after a particularly tough spell. Pratchett out and out said that most of a wizard's job is avoiding casting spells whenever possible.


Almost the polar opposite in D&D. With the exception of extenuating circumstances, spells will not fail, cause no exertion on the part of the caster, and have a predictable, near-guaranted effect. And even the ones that take an attack roll usually do so on favorable terms compared to just hitting things with a stick.

At least in Shadowrun there's stuff like drain and overcasting, in World of Darkness there's Paradox, and a whole lot of other games have risks and downsides to their magic. The only thing D&D has is that magic is limited by spell slots (until that limitation inevitably gets worked around).

Why build a cannon that takes four men and a horse team to maneuver and operate, might not work in the rain, often misses, and requires a steady supply of ammunition, when you can just get a wand of fireball good for fifty uses, cannot malfunction except for very specific circumstances in the hands of a proper user, is still reliable in the hands of an improper but still trained user (high UMD check), and can be supplemented with metamagic grips, eternal modifiers, etc?

[AMFV]

Keep in mind that in the Discworld 'verse, magic really is dangerous and difficult. It's often stated that wizards strongly argue that doing a spell in just the wrong way can make things from the Dungeon Dimensions come and 'stitch you right up', and that they usually have to go and lie down after a particularly tough spell. Pratchett out and out said that most of a wizard's job is avoiding casting spells whenever possible.


Almost the polar opposite in D&D. With the exception of extenuating circumstances, spells will not fail, cause no exertion on the part of the caster, and have a predictable, near-guaranted effect. And even the ones that take an attack roll usually do so on favorable terms compared to just hitting things with a stick.

At least in Shadowrun there's stuff like drain and overcasting, in World of Darkness there's Paradox, and a whole lot of other games have risks and downsides to their magic. The only thing D&D has is that magic is limited by spell slots (until that limitation inevitably gets worked around).

Why build a cannon that takes four men and a horse team to maneuver and operate, might not work in the rain, often misses, and requires a steady supply of ammunition, when you can just get a wand of fireball good for fifty uses, cannot malfunction except for very specific circumstances in the hands of a proper user, is still reliable in the hands of an improper but still trained user (high UMD check), and can be supplemented with metamagic grips, eternal modifiers, etc?

Well the reason is that in old D&D magic was supposed to be relatively rare, tiny fractions of the population were supposed to be able to cast. In Higher Magic worlds that got kind of white-washed until the high population of Magic-Users became the norm, and the world no longer made as much sense in terms of realistic development (which may or may not mean anything).

[Kami2awa]

I agree that this works better as a low-magic world. That's not impossible to do with D&D though, particularly 1e or 2e, low-level 3.5e, or one of the many "retro-clones".

As to the science/magic divide, I can see a few ways to deal with it:

- Magic and science are completely separate things, and one can't be applied to the other with any success. I realise this doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but it's a split that runs through a lot of fantasy fiction, so I don't see why it can't be the case here.

- Magic is comprehensible by scientific methods - in fact, it could be thought of as an extra field of science. However, the different fields need not overlap at the time of the setting. After all, you don't use much biology to build a steam engine, and you don't discover penicillin with physics - both have very different applications. This is doubly true in the early days of these fields. One day, there might be Grand Unified Thaumaturgy that unites magic with the other known laws of science, but scholars aren't there yet. Even if wizards know exactly how to do magic, and even how to create their own spells, they might have massive gaps in the knowledge of how it actually works.

Similar worlds, where pseudo-medieval elements are combined with the early industrial revolution, have been the theme of a number of computer games, particularly the Thief series (especially TII: The Metal Age). Further inspiration could be drawn from games such as Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs... "We require a new deity, one of steam and the wheel, of magnetism and progress."

[AMFV]

I agree that this works better as a low-magic world. That's not impossible to do with D&D though, particularly 1e or 2e, low-level 3.5e, or one of the many "retro-clones".

As to the science/magic divide, I can see a few ways to deal with it:

- Magic and science are completely separate things, and one can't be applied to the other with any success. I realise this doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but it's a split that runs through a lot of fantasy fiction, so I don't see why it can't be the case here.

- Magic is comprehensible by scientific methods - in fact, it could be thought of as an extra field of science. However, the different fields need not overlap at the time of the setting. After all, you don't use much biology to build a steam engine, and you don't discover penicillin with physics - both have very different applications. This is doubly true in the early days of these fields. One day, there might be Grand Unified Thaumaturgy that unites magic with the other known laws of science, but scholars aren't there yet. Even if wizards know exactly how to do magic, and even how to create their own spells, they might have massive gaps in the knowledge of how it actually works.

Similar worlds, where pseudo-medieval elements are combined with the early industrial revolution, have been the theme of a number of computer games, particularly the Thief series (especially TII: The Metal Age). Further inspiration could be drawn from games such as Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs... "We require a new deity, one of steam and the wheel, of magnetism and progress."

Or you could have a high magic world where magic is just emerging... Maybe there's a magical revolution that accompanies the industrial revolution, as industrial tech gets more advanced, so does magic.

[Kami2awa]

Or you could have a high magic world where magic is just emerging... Maybe there's a magical revolution that accompanies the industrial revolution, as industrial tech gets more advanced, so does magic.

That's a fun idea... PC mages could be some of the few of the newly-initiated "spellcasters", early practicioners of the newly-discovered sorcerery.

[Vitruviansquid]

I think you're onto something there, but I prefer to divorce magic and technology entirely.

In medieval times and before, when people didn't understand something, they rationalized it with magic. The suns path through the sky was actually a dude in a chariot. People getting depressed were actually plagued by demon spirits... I dunno, you get the picture. But as scientific progress began to explain these things to us, the mystery and magic began to fade from out world. As we began to understand the natural phenomena that occur in the world, we began to disbelieve that - for instance - offerings to a god would cause a bountiful harvest.

For that reason, I think it's a cool concept to relate that to D&D, in a world where magic actually does exist. Magic, elemental spirits, and godlike beings did rule over humanity at one point, but at the advent of technology like the steam engine, or advances in medicine, it no longer becomes necessary to live at the mercy of the natural world, since humanity is capable of creating their own synthetic solutions to all these problems. As a result, you see mages, druids, and the like have much less prevalence in those societies. While magic was a reality in that world, it was really only available to an elite class... You don't see peasants creating golems to tend to their crops. As technology becomes more readily available, you see the power shifting to the common man.

Magic is becoming obsolete, and increasingly is only studied by more esoteric shut-ins, or wizarding societies that don't interest themselves in everyday drudgery. They become the philosophers and scholars of the world, concerning themselves with abstract knowledge that might not have a direct application in the world. Meanwhile, the engineers and inventors of the world create direct solutions to increase quality of life for everyone. Nietzsche may have said "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." but that doesn't change anyone's life (and honestly is a non-statement, if you ask me). On the other hand, Bill Gates created the PC and made life easier and more efficient for billions of people, every day. Which one do you think the common man would look up to more?

Anyway, I just think it's interesting to treat magic like that in a fantasy setting. It's a a sort of game-of-opposites. Magic would still have applications in a fantasy game like this. Like, ya know, summoning, mind control, combat magic n such. So it wouldn't be as black-and-white as philosophy versus computers. But at the same time, you would see magic becoming more of an abstract concept. People would find it pointless to bring a ball of sulphur & bat guano and try to please old hermit on the outskirts of town in hopes that he would make their field more fertile... when they could just pay $15.99 for "Scotts 15 lb. 5 M Turf Builder Weed and Feed ^TM". At the same time, you'd have people who are resistant to change and fear all the new innovations happening every day; loud factories, steel framed tenement buildings going 10x as high as people ever thought possible, people flocking to overpopulated cities instead of the tiny villages they once lived in.

I dunno, I just think that idea sounds cooler than "magic guns"

Perhaps in a vacuum, but I'm finding that setting portrayed often enough it's getting boring, whereas what you term as "magic guns" hasn't been.

[Fri]

In my old campaign setting, this thing is actually part of it. I had two games set in the setting, separated by a couple decades.

In the first game, technology is just starting. It's not actually technology per se, but a bit more fantastic, which is caleld Alchemy.

In that first game, magic is rare, but not that rare. Basically, magicians are treated like engineers in our modern society, and with a similar demographical spread. But the thing is, only those magicians can use magic. Magic sure is useful though, and kingdoms might have an elite magical squad to deal with giants or dragons or whatever.

Then Alchemy starts to appear. Basically the difference is, everyone can use alchemical contraptions. They're still crude and rare, but since everyone can use alchemical lantern or alchemy-engine powered vehicles, it's growing strong.

But alchemy and magic interact badly. If a magicians try to use an alchemical engine, the reaction between their inherent magic and whatever thing flowing inside the engine would break it.

Now fast forward a couple decades.

In the second game, the industrial revolution had passed. Now Alchemical engine is common, and magicians is rare, and forced to eke out a living on the edge of society. Because they can't use the vehicles and machines that power the world now. People born with magical power from poorer families, which used to be a boon, is now a curse. But people from rich families still send their magically gifted kids to old academies, which is still a source of pride, but the academies are mostly ivory towers with not much effect in the world now.

[Flame of Anor]

Any thread whose title is a reference to "Jerusalem" is on the right track already, and the post sounds like a great setting too!

"Bring me my +5 flaming mighty composite longbow..."

[Kami2awa]

Magic is becoming obsolete, and increasingly is only studied by more esoteric shut-ins, or wizarding societies that don't interest themselves in everyday drudgery. They become the philosophers and scholars of the world, concerning themselves with abstract knowledge that might not have a direct application in the world.

This is the situation with the wizards at the start of Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrell (which is set in a similar early-Victorian world where magic exists). Wizards have retreated into academia, where they study magic but almost never practice it, and most cannot remember when they last worked a spell.

Perhaps most the wizards of this world are content to remain in (literal?) ivory towers. This means that a PC spellcaster is likely a rebel from this system, willing to use their powers for something other than producing their 15th paper on the precise thaumic vibrations of early-10th-century Magic Missile spells. It would also mean that most wizards are low level in practice (though their Knowledge: Arcana might be crazy high) since they don't get the chance to practice their powers very much.

[FlumphPaladin]

"Bring me my +5 flaming mighty composite longbow..."

"Nor shall my +3 dancing vorpal bastard sword sleep in my hand..."

[TheTeaMustFlow]

"Nor shall my +3 dancing vorpal bastard sword sleep in my hand..."

You missed out "I shall not cease from Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Fight..."