Gargoyle PC Race [PEACH]

[DracoKnight]

So, I was really interested in how Aarakocra and Gargoyles are archenemies, and I thought it would be cool to brew up a Gargoyle race, since we already have the Aarakocra - to capture that dynamic in a player party setting.

[RakiReborn]

Hiya DracoKnight,

Once again a solid homebrew (pun intended), but i have a few thingies.
Immune to exhaustion is extremely good. Combinated with the two main stats for a barbarian, you can make a berserker without the exhaustion downside...
I like the lowered walking speed, but with a good flying speed. As with the aarakocra, it is strong. The false appearance feature is wonderful, nothing to add there.
one bit about the fluff: The block about what the different races say about gargoyles is kinda different from the allignment part. Or at least, feels so for me. They sit on churches and punish evildoers, but are usually evil... The chaotic seems fitting though :)

Might i suggest making the exhaustion part 'ignore the first level', which is still strong, but more balanced. If you do so, i would also suggest giving it the trance like elves get, or something similar.

[DracoKnight]

Hiya DracoKnight,

Once again a solid homebrew (pun intended), but i have a few thingies.
Immune to exhaustion is extremely good. Combinated with the two main stats for a barbarian, you can make a berserker without the exhaustion downside...

I changed the ability. It's now a CON save to avoid becoming exhausted.

I like the lowered walking speed, but with a good flying speed. As with the aarakocra, it is strong. The false appearance feature is wonderful, nothing to add there.

It's awesome, but it's fluff

one bit about the fluff: The block about what the different races say about gargoyles is kinda different from the allignment part. Or at least, feels so for me. They sit on churches and punish evildoers, but are usually evil... The chaotic seems fitting though :)

Well, it's kinda like how demons enjoy punishing the wicked.

Might i suggest making the exhaustion part 'ignore the first level', which is still strong, but more balanced. If you do so, i would also suggest giving it the trance like elves get, or something similar.

I will add something similar

[RakiReborn]

CON save makes it more balanced, but DC15 seems a bit low.
As a 3rd level berserker barbarian, you would probably have con16 for a total save bonus of +5. This makes a 55% save chance, which still might seem a bit high to me.
As a 20th level berserker barbarian with the capstone, you would probably have con24, for a total save bonus of +13. This makes a 90% chance to not gain the exhaustion. I would say that you should aim to a 50-50 chance at higher levels with con20 (+11 bonus), so a DC of 21, and you would have a 25% chance as a level 3 beserker this way. I did this the same way as a save for exhaustion on my Barbarian Punisher Path, as a replacement for the beserker in a campain i wll DM in the future.

[DracoKnight]

CON save makes it more balanced, but DC15 seems a bit low.
As a 3rd level berserker barbarian, you would probably have con16 for a total save bonus of +5. This makes a 55% save chance, which still might seem a bit high to me.
As a 20th level berserker barbarian with the capstone, you would probably have con24, for a total save bonus of +13. This makes a 90% chance to not gain the exhaustion. I would say that you should aim to a 50-50 chance at higher levels with con20 (+11 bonus), so a DC of 21, and you would have a 25% chance as a level 3 beserker this way. I did this the same way as a save for exhaustion on my Barbarian Punisher Path, as a replacement for the beserker in a campain i wll DM in the future.

I made it intentionally low. I honestly wasn't thinking Berserker when I initially gave them immunity to exhaustion. I gave them immunity to exhaustion because I thought it was something unique on their statblock, and I didn't want them to be a copy-paste of the aarakocra. Once you pointed out that immunity is definitely way too strong, I felt a low DC CON save was a happy medium. It's low enough that it'll be relatively easy to hit - even if a player is playing a wizard, but high enough that if they don't hit it, it's gonna suck.

[RakiReborn]

I made it intentionally low. I honestly wasn't thinking Berserker when I initially gave them immunity to exhaustion. I gave them immunity to exhaustion because I thought it was something unique on their statblock, and I didn't want them to be a copy-paste of the aarakocra. Once you pointed out that immunity is definitely way too strong, I felt a low DC CON save was a happy medium. It's low enough that it'll be relatively easy to hit - even if a player is playing a wizard, but high enough that if they don't hit it, it's gonna suck.

I understand, but it seems to low from my perspective. When i make homebrew myself, i tend to look at it from a min/maxer perspective and how to abuse it (as i am kind of a min-maxer myself :P). This race is particualarly strong with the barbarian beserker, and thats why i pointed it out en suggested a higher DC. The race is just too nice with the subclass (with even the asi's perfect for it), as you would have a very low chance of failing the save for the drawback of its strongest ability (85% chance to make the save at lvl17, 95% at lvl20). Ofcourse, it is your homebrew, and you should make it as intended, i simply point out what i would do with it ;)
The feature is still awesome, and fitting for the race. Even when it has a higher DC, it gives some neat options to go just a little further than others without the feat (like marching), even as a wizard with a low con if you get a bit lucky. Just worried it might be abused.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Why not just make it advantage on saves against exhaustion? Then it scales automatically?

Also, if you're looking for unique gargoyle features (or at least, ones aarokocra don't have), I'd suggest natural armour. They are made of stone, after all.

[khadgar567]

small idiotic question is gargoyle look like angel statue so he/she can hide in church hell give him/her some cleric level and now your church has miracle support from resident god

[Ninja_Prawn]

small idiotic question is gargoyle look like angel statue so he/she can hide in church hell give him/her some cleric level and now your church has miracle support from resident god

That kind of thing is the entire point of making this a PC race. Traditionally, gargoyles in D&D (as in real life) have monstrous or demonic appearances. But if it's a PC, things like appearance and alignment can be chosen by the player. A good aligned gargoyle cleric is now entirely feasible (stat bonuses notwithstanding).

[khadgar567]

That kind of thing is the entire point of making this a PC race. Traditionally, gargoyles in D&D (as in real life) have monstrous or demonic appearances. But if it's a PC, things like appearance and alignment can be chosen by the player. A good aligned gargoyle cleric is now entirely feasible (stat bonuses notwithstanding).

actually ninja can you do some racial spells for the race since they can wait really long around somewhere they can passively learn some spells or invent some spells to keep their gear look like stone to

if its okay with dracoknight

[RakiReborn]

Why not just make it advantage on saves against exhaustion? Then it scales automatically

^this. This actually solves every problem i could find. No abuse with berserker, since you do not get a save there, and same benefit for all classes that play this race. Ignore my suggestion, I second this xD

[Ninja_Prawn]

actually ninja can you do some racial spells for the race since they can wait really long around somewhere they can passively learn some spells or invent some spells to keep their gear look like stone to

if its okay with dracoknight

I don't really feel inspired to write any more spells right now... I'll think about it if DracoKnight wants me to, but maybe someone else could handle this? Entry to the contest is still open, after all.

[DracoKnight]

Why not just make it advantage on saves against exhaustion? Then it scales automatically?

Also, if you're looking for unique gargoyle features (or at least, ones aarokocra don't have), I'd suggest natural armour. They are made of stone, after all.

Is there usually a save against exhaustion? If not, how would this advantage be applicable?

I'd thought about that, but the UA Warforged has natural armor, and I wanted to give the gargoyle something that no other race has.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I like this, and I'm (personally) not worried about the CON save to avoid exhaustion. Yeah, it's great for the Berserker, but when have you ever seen someone play a Berserker? It gets tragically underplayed, this race gives a reason to play it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Is there usually a save against exhaustion? If not, how would this advantage be applicable?

I haven't checked the books, but my memory tells me that every source of exhaustion except the berserker offers a save. I know for sure that forced march does, because I've used that rule recently.

[DracoKnight]

I haven't checked the books, but my memory tells me that every source of exhaustion except the berserker offers a save. I know for sure that forced march does, because I've used that rule recently.

I just checked the book, and it looks like Forced March is the only source that provides a CON save.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I just checked the book, and it looks like Forced March is the only source that provides a CON save.

Quickly checking my portable rules, it looks like starvation is no save, but dehydration does offer a save (PHB 185). Weird.

[DracoKnight]

Quickly checking my portable rules, it looks like starvation is no save, but dehydration does offer a save (PHB 185). Weird.

Huh. That seems backwards, since dehydration will kill you more quickly.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Huh. That seems backwards, since dehydration will kill you more quickly.

Yeah, if it were me, I'd have them both be rolls

Extreme heat, extreme cold (DMG 110) and long-distance swimming (DMG 116) all offer saves against exhaustion. Adventuring at high altitude triggers the forced march rule faster, so add that to the 'save' pile as well.

I think advantage on saves is meaningful enough. Plus if you plant the seed in DMs' minds, they're more likely to use houserules that involve saves against exhaustion. I've certainly used the mechanic in offensive spells before.

[DracoKnight]

Plus if you plant the seed in DMs' minds, they're more likely to use houserules that involve saves against exhaustion. I've certainly used the mechanic in offensive spells before.

I was about to say "Most DMs I know might not." But then I realized that if you're using a homebrew race, you're using other houserules

Am I wrong in thinking that the feature as it is written *right now* is not OP? That it's just really good, but still fairly situational? Yes, exhaustion is a pretty big deal if you play with a DM who pays attention to it. The Gargoyle is good for the Berserker, because of that, but like GandalfTheWhite said: how many people build as a Berserker? This certainly gives you a compelling reason to, but Totem's damage resistances are still a huge draw.

And to debate the point about it being too optimized for Berserker, what about Wood Elf being incredible for Ranger, or Gnome for Wizard? That's what I'm looking at when I think that this feature isn't overpowered. I could totally be wrong, I just want to be sure.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Am I wrong in thinking that the feature as it is written *right now* is not OP?

No, but it's convoluted, and in many cases means you're just making two saves against different DCs. Unless you explicitly want to boost berserkers a bit, I'd say my way is cleaner and simpler.

[DracoKnight]

No, but it's convoluted, and in many cases means you're just making two saves against different DCs. Unless you explicitly want to boost berserkers a bit, I'd say my way is cleaner and simpler.

It's more that I wanted to represent their *immunity* to exhaustion, without giving them outright immunity. I figured that 15 was low enough the player would hit it fairly regularly, but high enough that it's not impossible to fail. Since, with 5e, DC 15 is a medium difficulty.

[Requiemforlust]

Just so you know, DracoKnight, I have a player who wants to build a Berserker. I was going to wave the exhaustion rule for Frenzy, but instead, I'm going to offer them this, and if they don't want to play the Gargoyle, they'll have to deal with exhaustion.

[SterlingWren]

This is pretty awesome. My group just held a session and we playtested this. It's fine. It's power level is equal to the Aarakocra.

Our playtest consisted of highly optimized 5th level characters:

Rock Gnome Abjurer Wizard
Aarakocra Open Hand Monk
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
Lightfoot Halfling Thief Rogue
Gargoyle Berserker Barbarian.

The Gargoyle held it's own. We ran 3 encounters. The first two encounters it made the DC 15 save (a 16, and a 17), and then after the third encounter using Frenzy, the player made his CON save, and he rolled a total of 12. So, the DC 15 is fairly easy to hit, but not impossible to miss. Good job. Well done, DracoKnight

[Ninja_Prawn]

My group just held a session and we playtested this.

...within 10 hours of it being posted?! Wowzers.

[SterlingWren]

...within 10 hours of it being posted?! Wowzers.

We were already meeting to play, and then GandalfTheWhite saw this pop up on the forum, I liked the sound of it, so we ran a playtest

[GandalfTheWhite]

We were already meeting to play, and then GandalfTheWhite saw this pop up on the forum, I liked the sound of it, so we ran a playtest

It was pretty awesome! I like the Inexhaustible mechanic. It works really well.

[DracoKnight]

We were already meeting to play, and then GandalfTheWhite saw this pop up on the forum, I liked the sound of it, so we ran a playtest

It was pretty awesome! I like the Inexhaustible mechanic. It works really well.

Awesome! I'm glad y'all liked it, and I'm glad that the mechanic works

[SterlingWren]

Awesome! I'm glad y'all liked it, and I'm glad that the mechanic works

Good work! Also, nice presentation! Your stuff keeps getting better, and looking nicer

[Ninja_Prawn]

Good work! Also, nice presentation! Your stuff keeps getting better, and looking nicer

Actually, do you have an index of all your homebrew, Draco? It would be nice to be able to find it all in one place.