Paladin Spellcaster?

[Person_Man]

So, as many of us have figured out already, the Complete Champion is a toy box full of build options. I'm sure I'll be posting about new ideas for a few weeks. Here's my first:

Battle Blessing allows you to cast Paladin Spells more quickly. Full round spells become standard actions, and standard action spells become Swift actions. And this occurs WITHOUT LEVEL ADJUSTMENT. Free Quicken for standard action Paladin spells.

If you comb the supplements, there are a ton of useful standard action Paladin spells. Using this option basically puts your Paladin on par with Tome of Battle classes that follow the normal action + useful Swift action formula.

Unfortunately, the Paladin has a pretty slow spell progression. So this is really useful, but even with high Cha it can only be used a very limited number of times per day.

But wait - the Paladin is not the only class that casts Paladin spells! The Holy Liberator and Pious Templar also cast Paladin spells. And I don't have Complete Divine in front of me, but I think they use the Blackguard spell progression (4th level spells by ECL 12).

I'm thinking that there have got to be other Prestige classes out there that use Paladin spells. And even if they don't, at mid levels a Paladin/Templar (High Saves+Mettle) or Barbarian/Holy Liberator (Pounce) making full attacks and then casting Swift action 4th level spells would be pretty darn handy. At high levels you'd lose your edge, but hey, not every build is perfect.

So, are there any other PrC that uses Paladin spells?

Any Paladin spell in particular that would be perfect to use with this combo?

Is there some weird variant combo that could make this build even better?


As a side note, this also allows Archivists to become even more broken then before. But they were already broken beyond belief, so maybe now they're just more powerful then Artificers.

[Starsinger]

Actually, I don't think it works for Archivists. As I think the case is, if a Psion takes Expanded Knowledge to learn Breath of the Black Dragon (A Psy-warrior) power, it's a Psion power for the Psion. Likewise, I think if an Archivist scribes Greater Magic Fang into his prayer book, that it becomes an Aarchivist spell, and not a druid spell.

[Like a Lion]

Not quite. There's no such thing as an "archivist spell", as Archivists don't have a fixed spell list.

Battle Blessing's a great feat; between that, some of the substitution features, and so on, Paladin's become viable as more than a four-level class.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, it certainly makes Winter's Champion worthwhile. Swift action chill touch, chill metal, sleet storm, ice storm, snow sight, snow walk, and winter's embrace. Blaster paladins just got rockin'.

EDIT: Holy crap. I just thought of this. With Winter's Champion, coupled with the Snowcasting-Flash Freeze-other snowcasting cheese feat combos, you can have a rather strange and nifty blaster Pally.

[Like a Lion]

Blaster... Paladin? With your gimped caster level, few spell slots, and so on?

Not so much, no. That's like saying that being an elf and getting longsword proficiency makes you a melee beguiler.

[Ditto]

The UA variant prestige paladin? You'd have to sort out how paladin-specific feats would work out with a class that uses cleric spell casting, but it's awesome so you'll find a way to manage.

Also, the Chameleon PrC can pull its divine spells from wherever, so that has Paladin spells too.

[Like a Lion]

Prestige Paladins, Chameleons, Archivists, and whoever else could use the feat to cast spells on the Paladin list as swift instead of standard actions. That's fairly handy, but there aren't that many great spells on the Paladin list, for a caster.

[Fax Celestis]

MORE holy crapping.
Initiate of Arvoreen: Swift action enlarge person, message, blade thirst
Initiate of Baravar Cloakshadow: Swift action invisibility, displacement
Initiate of Boccob: swift action identify(!)
Initiate of Horus-Re: swift action command, searing light
Initiate of Nobanion: swift action lionheart, summon nature's ally II, and shout!

There are more. DAMN. That's totally awesome.

[Like a Lion]

Considering you can only have one of those feats, and need to be an actual paladin to add it to your *paladin* spell list... I'm not seeing that's awesome. Sure, casting those spells as swift instead of standard actions isn't bad, but you can do it how often?

[barawn]

Initiate of Boccob: swift action identify(!)

Identify's casting time is 1 hour.

Besides... why the devil would you want a swift identify?

[Fax Celestis]

Identify's casting time is 1 hour.

Besides... why the devil would you want a swift identify?

So you don't have to take an hour?

Beyond that, I'm merely looking at the many many ways to add a variety of spells to your paladin repertoire that are much more worth it when they're swift.

For instance, take the Initiate of Avoreen: I can make myself big as a swift action now, for a first level paladin slot.

[Like a Lion]

Yeah, but you have to be a halfling to take Initiate of Arvoreen.

So basically you're a halfling who's spending a spell slot every time he wants to not be a halfling.

[Fax Celestis]

I think you missed my point. My point is that there are ways to add a lot of spells that paladins don't generally have access to onto their spell lists, and coupling that with the Battle Blessing feat makes it viable for them to do a good many magical effects that are not usually viable.

[Like a Lion]

And my point is--"like what?"
Sure, you can add a few spells to your list... but few of them are useful, and you can't cast them often. If you think "hey, useful in-combat first-level spell now is a swift action" then, well, show us some first-level spells you can add to the spell list that become great as a swift action when they weren't as a standard one.

[barawn]

So you don't have to take an hour?

Yeah, but why would you care? When's the last time you wanted to identify in the middle of battle?

Anyway, I only mentioned it because Battle Blessing doesn't affect identify.

[Fax Celestis]

Er, I did. Right up there.

They are useful by themselves, yes, but this makes them more viable for you to cast yourself than to have your cleric buddy cast on you. Further, I'm not saying "make the paladin a dedicated caster." He's not. But being able to do things like perform a charging smite and follow it with an ice storm is certainly better than just performing a charging smite.

[Like a Lion]

The halfling and gnome ones make you poor at your job because of your race, so they're out. Command? Meh. Searing Light? Meh. And same for the rest, except maybe Lionheart (not sure what it does). The Spell Compendium's got better ways to use those slots than those feats provide.

[Person_Man]

Prestige Paladin doesn't give you access to Paladin spells. It just progresses your divine spellcasting (usually Cleric).

But I think the Chameleon idea is a great one though, since they get access to 4th level Paladin spells at ECL 10, plus tons of other useful abilities. Again, the usefulness of this combo would slip at higher levels since there are no Paladin spells above 4th, but it'd be insanely useful at mid levels.

I think Fax is on to something big. It's simply a matter of getting the right spell combined with the right build. The Paladin doesn't need to blast every round. He just blasts (or casts battlefield control) on the first round of each combat, followed by a Charge attack. Great for mounted builds, which Strongheart Halfling Paladins excel at.

Also, I'd note that Paladin mounts have the Share Spells ability. It only effects personal spells, but again, it could lead to some great combos.

[Fax Celestis]

The halfling and gnome ones make you poor at your job because of your race, so they're out. Command? Meh. Searing Light? Meh. And same for the rest, except maybe Lionheart (not sure what it does). The Spell Compendium's got better ways to use those slots than those feats provide.

Er, I think an invisible gnome paladin with displacement would be quite a formidable melee opponent.

[Like a Lion]

At the level the gnome paladin can cast displacement more than once, he can probably have his miss chance in better ways than suffreing through being a gnome paladin for the 10 levels before he gets a third level spell (which he can then use in one fight).

Battle Blessing is great. But it's great with spells that are already on the Paladin list, especially the Spell Compendium ones, rather than with any I can think of that are added.

[Fax Celestis]

You don't have to suffer through ten paladin levels to get those spells. Try PrCing into War Priest from Paladin, or taking levels in Legacy Champion, or just about any PrC that has "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing class features."

[Indon]

The halfling and gnome ones make you poor at your job because of your race, so they're out.

And how precisely does being a gnome make you bad at being a meleer? Halfling I can see, since DEX isn't so great for Paladins (but don't they get a racial +1 to all saves, or something?), but don't gnomes get a CON bonus? And all being small, even with -2 strength, means is that you (with most weapons) deal an average of 4 less damage on a power attack with a 2-hander, 3 of which comes from the strength penalty.

And if something grapples you, you can cast Enlarge Person.

[Like a Lion]

The point is you're suffering through ten levels of being a gnome heavy-armored melee character.

Spells like Divine Favor, Fell the Greatest Foe, Righteous Fury, Undead Bane weapon, and the like are great with Battle Blessing.

[Fax Celestis]

The point is you're suffering through ten levels of being a gnome heavy-armored melee character.

Spells like Divine Favor, Fell the Greatest Foe, Righteous Fury, Undead Bane weapon, and the like are great with Battle Blessing.

Um. A few things: gnomes are good meleers. Heavy armor proficiency does not mean you have to use heavy armor (or even that its always a good idea). Melee--while underpowered--is not a bad idea.

[Like a Lion]

Gnomes have a lower base move speed (there's too many great substitution levels to cash in your mount for to really keep it), a lower strength, no bonus feat (which really helps paladins), they have small weapons that do less damage... I'm really not sure how they're great meleers. Swift-Action Displacement Once Per Day At Level Ten doesn't really cover that, especially when you could be not a gnome and cast swift-action Righteous Fury, Find the Gap, etc instead.

[Fax Celestis]

Gnomes have a lower base move speed (there's too many great substitution levels to cash in your mount for to really keep it), a lower strength, no bonus feat (which really helps paladins), they have small weapons that do less damage... I'm really not sure how they're great meleers. Swift-Action Displacement Once Per Day At Level Ten doesn't really cover that, especially when you could be not a gnome and cast swift-action Righteous Fury, Find the Gap, etc instead.

Speed doesn't matter when your mount is medium and fits everywhere.

[Like a Lion]

True, but then you get to miss out on things like the Charging Smite substitution level from the PHB II or the spirit-summoning one in Dungeonscape, which are pretty significantly better than the mount.

[Fax Celestis]

True, but then you get to miss out on things like the Charging Smite substitution level from the PHB II or the spirit-summoning one in Dungeonscape, which are pretty significantly better than the mount.

That depends on your build. If you go mount-centric, it's a toss-up.

Now, a few spells that might be worthwhile like this:

If you could potentially grab expeditious retreat as a paladin spell, you could use it on you (or your mount with Share Spells) as a swift action to gain an extra 30' (or 60' on a charge). Share Spells has all kinds of potential in it.

I'll have to research, and being at work...that'll have to wait.

[Ponce]

Its certainly a great feat, every Paladin I make from here on out will most likely take it. I'd imagine a similar feat for the blackguard is also implied here. I'm not sure a 'blaster' sort of thing would work well, if only because your caster level is only half your class level, and most direct damage spells are heavily level dependent. The spell slots are probably better spent on buffs. They'd be set for life if you can find a way to get Fly on the spell list. Its on the cleric Travel domain, is there some way to transfer it over?

Er, I think an invisible gnome paladin with displacement would be quite a formidable melee opponent.

Invisible, displaced gnome paladins huh? If gnomes didn't make my skin crawl, I'd probably be very amused.