Roguish Archetype: Ninja

[DracoKnight]

I can't remember if I've posted this before, but here it is: my homebrewed Ninja Archetype!

[RakiReborn]

love it!
I do not see anything wrong with it as it is. Personally i wouldnt add the fighting style, but that is a preference. Instead i would put unarmored into 3rd level, with the upgrade at 9th, and maybe a boon to see better in darkness at 9th. Superior darkvision for instance.

[Arkhios]

I can't remember if I've posted this before, but here it is: my homebrewed Ninja Archetype!

Wow, that illustration is amazing!

Would you consider exploring the possibility to give a ninja Bonus Proficiency to either a longsword and allow it be treated as a finesse weapon, or to Scimitar, as both would work as the much needed Katana. Shortsword is just a wakizashi, and a ninja as much as a samurai should in my opinion have a proficiency in both.

[DracoKnight]

Would you consider exploring the possibility to give a ninja Bonus Proficiency to either a longsword and allow it be treated as a finesse weapon, or to Scimitar, as both would work as the much needed Katana. Shortsword is just a wakizashi, and a ninja as much as a samurai should in my opinion have a proficiency in both.

Rogues already have proficiency with the Longsword

I wouldn't necessarily allow them to finesse it for refluffing it as a katana, though. You still need to put Strength behind that blow.

[Arkhios]

Rogues already have proficiency with the Longsword

I wouldn't necessarily allow them to finesse it for refluffing it as a katana, though. You still need to put Strength behind that blow.

They do? Huh. I might need to read up their proficiencies again, as I honestly didn't remember seeing it there. Feels rather weird, because, as written they can't sneak attack with a versatile weapon, which leaves longsword proficiency a bit redundant for a rogue.

[DracoKnight]

They do? Huh. I might need to read up their proficiencies again, as I honestly didn't remember seeing it there. Feels rather weird, because, as written they can't sneak attack with a versatile weapon, which leaves longsword proficiency a bit redundant for a rogue.

It is weird, unless you're not optimizing.

[Arkhios]

It is weird, unless you're not optimizing.

True. However in general, optimizing or not, I can understand not allowing a sneak attack with a two-handed melee weapon, but why not with a versatile one-handed weapon? Or at least with those which they are proficient with due to rogue levels? Would it be that bad, really.

[SilverStud]

I really like this. It's super simple, instead of the wall-of-text complicated ninja homebrews I've seen. It's basically what I wish the Way of Shadow monk was. Sneak attack is such a wonderful thing...

[Submortimer]

True. However in general, optimizing or not, I can understand not allowing a sneak attack with a two-handed melee weapon, but why not with a versatile one-handed weapon? Or at least with those which they are proficient with due to rogue levels? Would it be that bad, really.

It runs into the same issues it always does: if you can sneak attack with a longsword, you can use sneak attack and Great Weapon fighting style together, and that would MASSIVLEY boost the rogues power. Besides, ninja didn't use the katana, they used the Ninja-to, which is functionally a short sword.

What I would change is the fighting style. Replace that with Martial Arts, give them a moderate unarmed Progression (d4 -> d6 -> d8), and allow them to sneak attack with their hands. Fits with the theme, allows them an extra chance to get a sneak attack with their fists, totally awesome.

[GandalfTheWhite]

It runs into the same issues it always does: if you can sneak attack with a longsword, you can use sneak attack and Great Weapon fighting style together, and that would MASSIVLEY boost the rogues power. Besides, ninja didn't use the katana, they used the Ninja-to, which is functionally a short sword.

This.

What I would change is the fighting style. Replace that with Martial Arts, give them a moderate unarmed Progression (d4 -> d6 -> d8), and allow them to sneak attack with their hands. Fits with the theme, allows them an extra chance to get a sneak attack with their fists, totally awesome.

I don't know. You could do this with a level 1 dip into monk (minus sneak attack). And I think that with the addition of the fighting style it minimizes the amount of dipping you need to do. Let's look at what the fighting styles allow you to do:

Archery: Throwing stars (darts) are simple ranged weapons with the Finesse property. Archery effects this, AND they can sneak with it.
Dueling: Captures a ninja using their precise strikes to hit their enemies to cause extra pain.
Two Weapon Fighting: Two handing daggers or wakazashi to maximum effectiveness.

Maybe a better solution would be to add a Pugilist fighting style that makes your unarmed strikes d4 finesse weapons

[DracoKnight]

Maybe a better solution would be to add a Pugilist fighting style that makes your unarmed strikes d4 finesse weapons

I like this

[Requiemforlust]

I can't remember if I've posted this before, but here it is: my homebrewed Ninja Archetype!

This is pretty awesome! I like it! I don't even think that it needs to use a pugilist fighting style. I think a level 1 dip of monk takes care of it. Although, maybe...something to make your unarmed Strikes Finesse.

[DracoKnight]

Added a Brawler fighting style that addresses the issues that people have put forth

[SpawnOfMorbo]

True. However in general, optimizing or not, I can understand not allowing a sneak attack with a two-handed melee weapon, but why not with a versatile one-handed weapon? Or at least with those which they are proficient with due to rogue levels? Would it be that bad, really.

Actually, even if you gave them GWM and a greatsword the rogue doesn't really do as much damage as the fighter and barbarian (or it's close). Only when you add in sentinel with gwm/Polearm master would the damage get out of hand (sneak attacking 2/turn).

A rogue doesn't care about base damage, sneak attack is their bread and butter.

[Arkhios]

Actually, even if you gave them GWM and a greatsword the rogue doesn't really do as much damage as the fighter and barbarian (or it's close). Only when you add in sentinel with gwm/Polearm master would the damage get out of hand (sneak attacking 2/turn).

A rogue doesn't care about base damage, sneak attack is their bread and butter.

Could you explain me just how does sentinel with or without GWM/PAM allow sneak attack 2/turn, as it explicitly states in its description that once per turn, period.

And as you say, if a rogue doesn't care about base damage, why is it so big of a problem if a rogue could use a one-handed weapon that is not finesse for sneak attack?

[Submortimer]

Actually, even if you gave them GWM and a greatsword the rogue doesn't really do as much damage as the fighter and barbarian (or it's close). Only when you add in sentinel with gwm/Polearm master would the damage get out of hand (sneak attacking 2/turn).

A rogue doesn't care about base damage, sneak attack is their bread and butter.

The problem isn't GWM, it's Great Weapon fighting. It's allows you to re-roll 1s and 2s on the whole attack, Sneak attack included. That ramps up the rogues average damage by a crap ton.

Anyways, for the fighting style bit, here's a good suggestion:

Ninjitsu
Your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 damage, and count as finesse weapons. Additionally, whenever you take the attack action and you make an attack with an unarmed strike, shortsword, or a throwing dagger, you may use your bonus action to make an attack with an unarmed strike, shortsword, or throwing dagger.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The problem isn't GWM, it's Great Weapon fighting. It's allows you to re-roll 1s and 2s on the whole attack, Sneak attack included. That ramps up the rogues average damage by a crap ton.

Anyways, for the fighting style bit, here's a good suggestion:

Ninjitsu
Your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 damage, and count as finesse weapons. Additionally, whenever you take the attack action and you make an attack with an unarmed strike, shortsword, or a throwing dagger, you may use your bonus action to make an attack with an unarmed strike, shortsword, or throwing dagger.

GWF, by raw/rai, only applies to weapon damage and not extra damage from sources like smite or sneak attack.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/22/...s-damage-dice/

Also, don't allow the unarmed strike to be finesse. Copy the monk text and then give a special clause that it can be used specifically with Ninja class features.

This way if there is ever any multiclass or feat issues, the feature doesn't break the mold all that much. It's more about what *might* be later than what is out there now.

[Submortimer]

GWF, by raw/rai, only applies to weapon damage and not extra damage from sources like smite or sneak attack.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/22/...s-damage-dice/

Also, don't allow the unarmed strike to be finesse. Copy the monk text and then give a special clause that it can be used specifically with Ninja class features.

This way if there is ever any multiclass or feat issues, the feature doesn't break the mold all that much. It's more about what *might* be later than what is out there now.

See, now there's the part that I never understand: why can we not have an unarmed strike that is a finesse weapon?

Also, if thats the case for GWF, then there are no problems with making a two handed or versatile finesse weapon. I can't really think of any other ways to abuse it,

[PoeticDwarf]

I like this, but some things I should change. First make unarmored defense int+dex. It doesn't only fill the typical rogue of a rogue but it makes it something more different from a shadow monk, and it fits the ninja fluff better.

the level 17 feature, lurking in the shadows, give maximum sneak attack damage and crit with a 20. Not OP of course but I don't feel like it's really unique, too much assassin/shadow monk combination. I would change it a little bit, giving for example a crit on rolling 17-20.

The other things are to make it more unique, but the brawler fighting style is ridiculously OP and doesn't fit in the fluff. It gives a free bonus action attack with decent damage, it gives extra fist damage, and it gives finessefist for monk multiclasses into shadow, making this subclass worthless after three levels. It also doesn't fit in the fluff, the typical ninja doesn't use fists, that is a shadow monk thing, you focussed too much on making a shadow monk as rogue instead of making a ninja

[DracoKnight]

I like this, but some things I should change. First make unarmored defense int+dex. It doesn't only fill the typical rogue of a rogue but it makes it something more different from a shadow monk, and it fits the ninja fluff better.

the level 17 feature, lurking in the shadows, give maximum sneak attack damage and crit with a 20. Not OP of course but I don't feel like it's really unique, too much assassin/shadow monk combination. I would change it a little bit, giving for example a crit on rolling 17-20.

The other things are to make it more unique, but the brawler fighting style is ridiculously OP and doesn't fit in the fluff. It gives a free bonus action attack with decent damage, it gives extra fist damage, and it gives finessefist for monk multiclasses into shadow, making this subclass worthless after three levels. It also doesn't fit in the fluff, the typical ninja doesn't use fists, that is a shadow monk thing, you focussed too much on making a shadow monk as rogue instead of making a ninja

I totally get all of your points!

Personally, I didn't want to give it the Brawler fighting style (I am aware of the historical inaccuracy), but I added it a the request of other forum users.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

See, now there's the part that I never understand: why can we not have an unarmed strike that is a finesse weapon?

Also, if thats the case for GWF, then there are no problems with making a two handed or versatile finesse weapon. I can't really think of any other ways to abuse it,

Oh, I'm with you on that, I'm not saying there is an issue with making unarmed strike a finesse weapon... It should be that way as a base option. However the game designers want to keep it away from finesse for some odd reason, seems like perhaps it may be an issue in an upcoming splat book or something.

I never understood why having a dagger made your attack lighter than not having said dagger...

If you take off the heavy property (so GWM doesn't come into play) a two handed finesse weapon is not only thematically appropriate but balanced. I would even give some reach but lower the damage die much like they did with the Whip. Just make sure the good ones aren't polearms (make it one of those chains with a ball on the end that Jackie Chan used by spinning it around his body) so polearm master + sentinel doesn't come into play (with sneak attack it would double your DPR) and you should be fine.

I'm ok with sentinel working at a range of 5' with sneak attack since there is some danger there, but allowing it with Polearm Master + Sentinel just seems a bit cheap.

[DracoKnight]

First make unarmored defense int+dex. ... it fits the ninja fluff better.

I went DEX + WIS because ninjas had to be agile (DEX) and perceptive (WIS). It does end up giving it the same Unarmored Defense as the monk, but there was a thought process behind it - I wasn't just brainlessly copy-pasting

[Khrysaes]

I would change Brawler to be more monk like.

Make it so you gain it when unarmed, or with a specific 1 handed weapon list.
Then add the three bullets of the monk class.

I would rename it as well, Brawler doesn't really fit Ninja. Though if you want other classes to be able to use the fighting style, I guess it works.

The point of the fighting style is to grant the rogue the unarmed strike(at least first levels), of the monk right? Removing the need to multiclass to get it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I went DEX + WIS because ninjas had to be agile (DEX) and perceptive (WIS). It does end up giving it the same Unarmored Defense as the monk, but there was a thought process behind it - I wasn't just brainlessly copy-pasting

I think Investigation (Int) fits a ninja's perceptive abilities more so than Perception (Wis).

Perception (Wis): is about spotting, typically hidden creatures.

Investigation (Int): is about searching, typically for objects.

I think Int (or even Cha) works better for a ninja than Wis.

Besides ninja were originally farmers who went up against samurai... Not a very wise thing to do . So they had to be smart about it and used traps and ambush tactics (Int). They then made a name and idea of themselves to strike fear into their enemy (cha).

[PoeticDwarf]

I totally get all of your points!

Personally, I didn't want to give it the Brawler fighting style (I am aware of the historical inaccuracy), but I added it a the request of other forum users.

Well if the forum's happy Im happy.

Again, good work, I love your homebrew