ScrewAttack Death Battle: Fair Or Bias

[Bartmanhomer]

Do you think that ScrewAttack Death Battle are fair or bias? In my opinion I believe all the fights that ScrewAttack made is fair. I don't think that there's any bias or unfairness behind it. What's your opinion on ScrewAttack Death Battle?

[erikun]

All ScrewAttack battles are going to have a massive bias.

Pretty much all of these internet "death battles" already have a bias, typically towards whoever has the most power/speed or resilience. It's just the format given. When you put two people in a boxing ring, the better boxer is going to win - even if the other person is "better" overall in comparison.

Probably the best way to handle these "death battles" is just to list and discuss the various benefits each character has, and what points it would be advantageous. You aren't likely to get a definitive answer, outside some obvious overpowered matchups, and so any "battle" result is going to depend a lot on the situation and what's happening in the narrative. A story where one character gets the jump on another might have a different ending than one where one character is defending a loved one from attack - and both results could be perfectly valid.

ScrewAttack isn't really wanting to have a "fair" comparison between the two. Rather, it wants something interesting for ten minutes followed by a definitive answer at the end. Sometime the results are rather silly: I remember one situation where Link won because "his shield is invulnerable and he can lift 15 tons". Other times, the outcome is rather obvious and it's just the back-and-forth fighting that's entertaining. And that's really the point: ScrewAttack is not about fair and much as being about entertaining. Most people are probably more interested in a short Youtube video showing off some fun moves rather than settling some sort of internet debate. I certainly know that I wouldn't care about most of the matchups otherwise.

Also, any reason that this isn't in the new Death Battle thread?

[Reddish Mage]

I think Deathbattle is about as fair as two guys pretending to be casually talking about fantasy character matchups can get.

There is real analysis of the strengths and weaknesses And the outcome typically turns on what they see as the most "critical" strength or weakness, preferably by measuring strength of strongest attack vs strongest defense by pretty solid numbers.

The two are very selective in what examples they pick and there isn't a consistent way of taking characters, some get only have the most "iconic" powers and abilities were others get everything. Such myopia can be individual bias, or simply a fact that some characters have been written with contradictory abilities and limits and they can only give so much effort per show.

I think the matches have a certain consistency about them however, and that setup: where the characters fight it out in a "no holds bar" straight up manner but are not allowed to eliminate their opponent until the end...is a format that itself leads itself to a "strongest attack vs strongest attack/defense/counter" ending.

It's one way to judge, and it's a pretty fair way for a lot of fighters...but it's certainly not the only way.

[Traab]

I think Deathbattle is about as fair as two guys pretending to be casually talking about fantasy character matchups can get.

There is real analysis of the strengths and weaknesses And the outcome typically turns on what they see as the most "critical" strength or weakness, preferably by measuring strength of strongest attack vs strongest defense by pretty solid numbers.

The two are very selective in what examples they pick and there isn't a consistent way of taking characters, some get only have the most "iconic" powers and abilities were others get everything. Such myopia can be individual bias, or simply a fact that some characters have been written with contradictory abilities and limits and they can only give so much effort per show.

I think the matches have a certain consistency about them however, and that setup: where the characters fight it out in a "no holds bar" straight up manner but are not allowed to eliminate their opponent until the end...is a format that itself leads itself to a "strongest attack vs strongest attack/defense/counter" ending.

It's one way to judge, and it's a pretty fair way for a lot of fighters...but it's certainly not the only way.

Pretty much this. Its impossible to be truly fair and unbiased when much of the material tends to have ridiculous parts attached to it. Like virtually any comic character. most have been around for so long that they all have SOMETHING absurd in their history that can be used as a gotcha moment either for or against. Like Beast versus Goliath where they showed Beast picking up a solid gold tree or something and estimated how strong he had to be to lift that. Or how in raiden versus wolverine they managed to dig through like 40 years worth of comics till they found one where a character with a similar sword was theoretically capable of getting through adamantium. But overall they are reasonablish with their decisions. They at least seem to try and figure out cold hard facts connected to feats. Things like, "He flew from here to here in x time, therefore going by the image we see he was moving at y miles per hour" Some times I think the bias shows, but lets be fair, everyone has preferences. Most of the time I dont much care who wins, I just want to see a good fight, but if you pick the right character, suddenly I become a lot more in favor of a specific winner and believe, true or not, that they deserve to win period.

[BWR]

My impression is that they generally try to be fair. I often don't know enough about the characters in question to know if the information they present is accurate, cherry picked or even outright fabricated, so I have to base it on what they present and their reasoning behind their choices. Sometimes I have questioned and disagreed with their conclusions (e.g. Toph vs. Gaara - even what little they showed of Gaara seemed to indicate he should take it) but in general I agree with their conclusions. Not that I've made an extensive investigation of it, but most of the complaints I've seen about the DB series are butthurt fans whining about how the one they liked lost, not actual reasoned arguments.

[Kitten Champion]

It's not an issue of bias, I'm sure they have their own but that's rather a glib way of managing their business. Rather they're interested in generating buzz and views... and controversy can certainly achieve that 'round these parts.

So long as they don't go too far and lose credibility with their main subscription base, well, you can usually construct a reasoning for why either side would "actually" win and playing against the majorities' expectations is going to get you the most interest -- so tailor your analysis accordingly.

It really doesn't matter, unless we're all going to pretend they're conclusions are somehow binding, it comes down to just being yet another set of internet pedants pushing an argument... just with an occasionally interesting animation to go with it.

[Legato Endless]

Fair is a weird word to apply to a hypothetical scenario between two representatives of divergent narrative conceits. Even if they didn't have any bias, some of their conclusions will rely on arbitrary assumptions, like any crossover fight.

I do think the methodology of taking extreme outliers of a character's usual capabilities at face value sacrifices sense for consistency, but at least they apply the buff of unscientific writers to both sides.

Does it matter? The show is being overtly ironic when they declare they'll settle the debate once and for all. It's all just a thought experiment. Unless you're getting overly invested in a character winning it's not a big deal.

[Kato]

I'm shocked there haven't been a dozen people yet shouting "DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense"

From how I see it... as with any (fictive) fight, it can always go either way and so far there have been few results I'd say I disagree with. And with most of them, I could see where they were coming from. It's not their fault if source materials contradict themselves, especially in things like comics... with a dozen different writers. What do you do about inconsistent story telling if you try to do something like that?

Although, most of all, 99% of Death battles have entertained me, which to me is the most important bit.

[erikun]

I'm shocked there haven't been a dozen people yet shouting "DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense"

We still need three more episodes before we're fully powered up enough to make our reply.

[Anteros]

I don't know if "biased" is the right word. The nature of the medium means that some of the results are down to opinion no matter what. They certainly make puzzling decisions at times though, and their "research and analysis" is nowhere near as comprehensive as they pretend it is. I think the best way to watch the show is to just enjoy the CGI fights without caring about their opinion of who wins.

That said, I haven't had a lot of respect for them ever since they made that smear video piling onto another channel for daring to make a versus type video. As if they invented the concept or something. I actually couldn't find the video when I looked for it just now though so maybe they took it down.

[Dragonus45]

I think DB tries to be fair, it really does. They are just really bad at being fair. I think the biggest problem is what I like to call "Death Battle Math" where they take a scene mostly out of context and apply math to it that skews things way out of proportion. Also I think they have a habit of taking a fight that was already a win, like Greymon Vs Charizard, and making it far more one sided than it should really be. Also, Gaara got robbed. Straight up robbed, and no I will not let it go. Also Zelda kind of did too.

[Sith_Happens]

Kirby beat Kid Buu. Kirby. Beat Buu. As far as I'm concerned ScrewAttack successfully getting anyone to take the series seriously is the greatest practical joke on the Internet.

[Reddish Mage]

Kirby beat Kid Buu. Kirby. Beat Buu. As far as I'm concerned ScrewAttack successfully getting anyone to take the series seriously is the greatest practical joke on the Internet.

I was going to say that Dragonball fans were real whiners....but this one gives me great pause....and question what they could have chosen to look at even in a bias and selective fashion.


I mean....Kirby....really?

[Seppl]

I was going to say that Dragonball fans were real whiners....but this one gives me great pause....and question what they could have chosen to look at even in a bias and selective fashion.


I mean....Kirby....really?

It was comic book physics vs. cartoon physics. While Dragon Ball at least tries to be somewhat consistent, the makers of Kirby will just let him do stuff for the laughs, even if it would require absolutely ridiculous strength and durability if taken seriously. That is of course cherry picking by the makers of Death Battle, as these stats are derived from singular events; jokes where the author just did not care about the implications. Whereas we as the audience think Kirby is weak because the average feats done by Kirby are nowhere near what Boo can do. But at least it is consistent among other Death Battles. They almost always take the maximum capabilities a character has shown, even if these stats come from obscure one-off showings. That is why joke-characters have such a good record on Death Battle. The more serious a work is, the less likely it is to find physics defying feats.

[Reddish Mage]

Also Kirby is VULNERABLE whereas Majin Buu is pretty close to indestructible.

Anyway, Death Battle is inconsistent about sometimes ignoring maximum capabilities due to obscurity or (for video game characters) "player preferences." They mention the Silver Age Superman to say specifically that he can't daisy-chain worlds in his match ups (not that he needs to, I think he's undefeated).

Cloud and Tifa didn't get any of the most powerful Materia and only the smattering of equipment. While Link got a full compliment. This is justified because Link gets his full compliment in every game while Cloud/Tifa's capabilities are wholly dependent on the players (unless they bring in the movies/OVAs). However, Link's abilities still differ each game....

[Fan]

Also Kirby is VULNERABLE whereas Majin Buu is pretty close to indestructible.

Anyway, Death Battle is inconsistent about sometimes ignoring maximum capabilities due to obscurity or (for video game characters) "player preferences." They mention the Silver Age Superman to say specifically that he can't daisy-chain worlds in his match ups (not that he needs to, I think he's undefeated).

Cloud and Tifa didn't get any of the most powerful Materia and only the smattering of equipment. While Link got a full compliment. This is justified because Link gets his full compliment in every game while Cloud/Tifa's capabilities are wholly dependent on the players (unless they bring in the movies/OVAs). However, Link's abilities still differ each game....

I'll be mentioning here that they gave Link equipment from multiple games (and thus multiple links), while ignoring the presence of the FF 7 inventory system which has items that replicate every single status effect, and in FF7 most of these status effects are permanent until dispelled meaning. 1 loco weed and Link is hitting himself 33% of the time, 1 war drums and he can't use any items at all same with spells, and 1 kiss of death kills him because there are no blanket status immunities in FF 7, a death will kill a player character as well as anything else so someone without magic protection will just have to deal with the potential for a 1 hit KO. Then we get into his non healing self buff items (Link changed shoes to buff himself several times throughout the fight so this is fair game) with Hero Drinks and Lunar + Light curtain for a 50% increase in durability from the curtains and a 132% increase in all combat abilities from a four stack of hero drinks. Speed drink for another 100% increase in speed, and a mirror to cast reflect on himself so that even if Link someone removes the war drums that are stopping him from doing anything but swinging wildly, any magic attacks he sends Cloud's way would be reflected. He can carry 99 of these, and again, they last until debuffed or in the case of Light / Lunar curtain they run out of time.

By the way, they ALSO forgot to include the materia that you literally cannot proceed through the game without grabbing, like Gravity (Which provides an automatic 75% life hit.) which blocks the path after you kill the boss in Cosmos Canyon, and Destruct (Which provides Debarrier, despell, and DEATH) which Sephiroth literally hits you in the stomach with. Meaning that yes, Cloud canon has them, and his canon weapon that he carries around also has more than enough materia slots to handle the extras.

This is also ignoring that he tanked shots from Diamond Weapon, and being in the Northern Crater during The Weapon's Awakening which is calc'd here. and for references sake here's one that provides some more general calc's of stuff that happens in the game to give you a solid understanding that this isn't just a one off here

This also applies to Tifa's death battle, as Yang wouldn't have been able to activate her special damage soaking ability while under the effects of war drums and punching herself during confusion would have created an odd infinite loop of gaining power and taking damage. The massive difference in speed emphasized in the above calc's, as well as durability (Tifa was on the deck of the highwind and was in fact knocked down by the explosion of the Weapon's Awakening.) means that not only would Yang have lost the drawn out battle of just trading punches, but that she'd have been in a really bad position to land any blows at all. There's also Dazers that inflict paralyze that would have been VERY useful here, but hey, it's okay to ignore Final Fantasy character's inventories but when it comes time for Strider Hiryu you better give him maxed out Medical for his versus with Ryu.

[Traab]

I agree, the FF7 matchups were really borked up. I mean, yeah, noone really expected them to give cloud some theorycrafted kotr quadra cast counter attack combo of insane damage and near unkillability, but they just went all the way in the opposite direction. The best part is, it was painfully obvious cloud only got the materia he did specifically so they could show link blocking or reflecting it. It honestly gave off a feeling that they were massive zelda fans overall and the entire battle was setup just to show how awesome link is. I didnt even get that strong of a reaction to the garra toph fight, I just think they were wrong there. Usually thats just how I feel when I disagree with the outcome, that they ignored something, or missed the implications or whatever, but that link/cloud fight? Yeah, it honestly gave off a feeling like they were in it to make cloud lose to link.

[Reddish Mage]

Funny, the only Deathbattle I've had a really strong adverse reaction to was the Batman/Darth Vader fight, and that was because the alternative ending that has Batman winning is just SO AWESOME, and the one with Darth Vader winning is very anti-climatic.

[Talakeal]

Funny, the only Deathbattle I've had a really strong adverse reaction to was the Batman/Darth Vader fight, and that was because the alternative ending that has Batman winning is just SO AWESOME, and the one with Darth Vader winning is very anti-climatic.

Batman... vs. Darth Vader...?

[BWR]

Batman... vs. Darth Vader...?

That's Superhero Beatdown, not DB.

[Anteros]

That's Superhero Beatdown, not DB.

I also believe they determine their result based on fan vote rather than "research" so it's harder to criticize their choices.

[Dragonus45]

I felt that the FF7 match ups were really the best way to work out what items the characters would have in a vacuum.

[Anteros]

I felt that the FF7 match ups were really the best way to work out what items the characters would have in a vacuum.

Maybe. But DB has a long history of taking characters at their absolute maximum potential when they want them to win. Superman hasn't been able to Daisy Chain planets for 20+ years now, and current Superman isn't even the same guy who did those things, but they still let him claim those feats.

The problem is that they aren't consistent. Sometimes they'll bend over backwards to make a character more powerful, and sometimes they'll nerf a character for no (or weak) reasons. You either have to take everyone at their peak power, or you have to pick more "realistic" versions of them. When you do both arbitrarily no one is going to take you seriously.

[Traab]

Maybe. But DB has a long history of taking characters at their absolute maximum potential when they want them to win. Superman hasn't been able to Daisy Chain planets for 20+ years now, and current Superman isn't even the same guy who did those things, but they still let him claim those feats.

The problem is that they aren't consistent. Sometimes they'll bend over backwards to make a character more powerful, and sometimes they'll nerf a character for no (or weak) reasons. You either have to take everyone at their peak power, or you have to pick more "realistic" versions of them. When you do both arbitrarily no one is going to take you seriously.

I thought they specifically discounted the planet chain pull and instead went with the more recent "benchpresses the weight of earth for three days straight" crud. And honestly, while I got the distinct impression they set the fight up a bit for superman to win, it was less out of bias and more out of "Seriously, look at their feats, the winner is as obvious as luke cage versus galactus" The first fight they grabbed various screen caps just to show their relative strength and speed, and superman was shown to be exponentially greater in every category barring possibly actual hand to hand combat skill. (Though they pointed out superman was not exactly a slouch there either) Then they threw in the "philosophy" later to explain why goku will never get strong enough to win.

[Fan]

I felt that the FF7 match ups were really the best way to work out what items the characters would have in a vacuum.

I disagree, other heroes with inventories were allowed to use them. Like Strider , Like Batman, like Megaman .

I mean if you want to argue "In a vacuum" Link doesn't get to have the red ring which is straight up from a different game than Ocarina of Time and doesn't even fit into roughly the same timeline like Majora's Mask does. He also doesn't get the Pegasus Boots which are ALSO from a different game and used by a different incarnation of Link. I mean you don't need to get the hover boots to win the game, same with fire and ice arrows. There are several runs that don't even use glitches that get through the game without them.

Items are just a much a part of an FF 7 character's arsenal as anything else is, and given Strider ALSO never uses his inventory in the manga spin off we don't have the under used in other forms of media argument.

Though to be fair again, we'll be getting a redo of all those calc's anyways in the true remake for FF 7 coming up soon so a lot of these feats are probably going to double in scale if what they're doing in FF XV is any hint.

Though to be 100% fair as well on the issue of Megaman vs Astroboy they used Megaman's weakest incarnation. His Battle net incarnation can literally devour the entire universe with bug style. That's not an entertaining fight though so I see why they didn't use it.

[Reddish Mage]

That's Superhero Beatdown, not DB.

Oops that explains a lot...

[BWR]

I also believe they determine their result based on fan vote rather than "research" so it's harder to criticize their choices.

Correct, which leads to some weird outcomes.

[ArlEammon]

Mild bias, like most people.

[Maryring]

DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense!

I actually didn't find the Gaara/Toph fight to be marred by bias though. The revelation that Toph can sense earth even if she isn't connected to that earth through the ground gives her a superior tactical advantage when it comes to knowing where your enemy is and what attacks he's planning to do. In Avatar, she has earth bending skills that match people far, far older than her, so I don't find it odd that she manages to claim superior control over the earth.

The Final Fantasy fights though? Totally biased. While Link still would've won if they'd truly given them everything due to Gateau + Magic Armour, with Tifa they arbitrarily decided that "she only has that amount of strength when performing her limit break", when they generally run on a rule of "if they've done it once before, they can do it again".

And then there's the math for how much force it takes to split a football into three.

[Fan]

DB is totally biased and none of their fights make any sense!

I actually didn't find the Gaara/Toph fight to be marred by bias though. The revelation that Toph can sense earth even if she isn't connected to that earth through the ground gives her a superior tactical advantage when it comes to knowing where your enemy is and what attacks he's planning to do. In Avatar, she has earth bending skills that match people far, far older than her, so I don't find it odd that she manages to claim superior control over the earth.

The Final Fantasy fights though? Totally biased. While Link still would've won if they'd truly given them everything due to Gateau + Magic Armour, with Tifa they arbitrarily decided that "she only has that amount of strength when performing her limit break", when they generally run on a rule of "if they've done it once before, they can do it again".

And then there's the math for how much force it takes to split a football into three.

If we go by everything though, we have things like shield materia which makes the target completely immune to physical and elemental damage, and with 99 megalixirs, 99 elixirs, 99 ethers, 99 turbo ethers, and absorb MP on master command you end up in a situation where Link's own unlimited magic fuels Cloud's own invulnerability. That's without abusing things like infinite casting mime loops, quadra casts of Knights of the Round, W Item duplicating an unlimited quantity of megalixirs to let him fight forever, etc and all the other obvious cheese if we're putting infinite loop combos that cross games on the table.

That combo is also nullified by Despell, which is available on one of the materia that Cloud canon gets (specifically the one Sephiroth gut shots him with), and it dispels buffs received from items in FF 7 so it's not limited to buffs that come solely from materia based magic.

Otherwise we agree. Though I will say that Tifa is pretty obviously physically stronger than Cloud is. I mean she does the same thing he does with a sword with her bare hands and her in game strength score is higher than his before we get into equipment and materia modifiers.