ScrewAttack Death Battle: Fair Or Bias

[Dragonus45]

Young Goku wasn't stupid, he was uneducated there is a difference.

[Anteros]

Batman and Superman are also friends. Best friends in fact. So..

It's more like all the times Chichi beats Goku up for coming home late, not working, or taking Gohan out to train without her permission than it is anything else.

Though you also neglected to mention that Superman was under the effects of a mind altering drug that also altered his physical appearance so it stands to reason that he wasn't operating at his fullest faculties either.

I imagine if Krillin decided to Destructo Disc Goku in the middle of an argument he wouldn't see it coming either.

It's hardly comparable, especially given Superman has never, ever, legitimately tried to kill Batman in canon, even while mind controlled his mental blocks have always stopped him from just murdering the caped crusader.

He was stated to be very near full capacity, but not 100%, and specifically stated to not be holding back at all within the comic it happens. Whatever mental discipline he has, the author went out of their way to state it wasn't working at that time. Whether he's completely 100% or not he shouldn't be getting hit in the eye by chewing gum.

Ok then.

Lets remove the laser AND the new 52 examples.

Superman still wins. Because he's stronger and faster. The laser is irrelevant. Unless SSGSS gets a revised official multiplier that doesn't matter.

If we use Silver Age then yes he does. My problem was never really that Supes won. He's perfectly capable of winning if Goku does something stupid like turning it into a fist fight. My problem was that they misrepresented Goku. He has more than enough raw power to win the fight if he actually lands his best attacks. Now, is Goku stupid enough to turn it into a fist fight and lose? Yes. However, all that tripe about "Superman is just too strong for you to ever match" and the energy blasts being overwhelmed by heat vision stuff was stupid.

[lord_khaine]

He was stated to be very near full capacity, but not 100%, and specifically stated to not be holding back at all within the comic it happens. Whatever mental discipline he has, the author went out of their way to state it wasn't working at that time. Whether he's completely 100% or not he shouldn't be getting hit in the eye by chewing gum.

That story were also one of the must stupid stories i have yet to see in DC canon, its like the authors were holding a circle fanwank for batman, and this were the result.

Batman, against the entire JLA?.... seriously

Its dumb enough that the joker were allowed to get the drop on them like that, and i would use much sharper words were i allowed to do so.

But the speed difference is so massive, that either WW or Superman should have tagged him with a grazing hit (read, grazing for them. Thats something that would leave Batman a red smear on the road)

[Reddish Mage]

Young Goku wasn't stupid, he was uneducated there is a difference.

Goku is...not particularly intelligence. It's not just a matter of education, his intelligence (or lack thereof) is remarked on and he will repeatedly do dumb things for comic effect even after being corrected.

It's really a running joke in the comic.

Goku's canon stupid though. Like legitimately he's canon an idiot that's one of his character flaws. His only mental strength he's ever had has been his ability to not let his mind be clouded in a fight and think about what his opponent is going to do next, an arguable boon gifted to him by his lack of actual intelligence that is all but nullified by his repeated, throughout the entire series demonstration of his inability to properly close a fight out once he became an adult.

This has been true throughout the entire series, even in the very first episode of dragonball the point that Goku is actually stupid when it comes to understanding things that aren't related to fighting, and even then in regards to the more fine tuned parts of fighting like anatomy. It's there in the very first episode of Dragonball and it's still with us today in the most recent episode of Super.

He didn't kill Buu when he should have, so everyone on the planet died. He didn't kill Freiza so Freiza tried to sneak attack him, he didn't kill Cooler properly so he came back and caused trouble for Namek. It goes on. It's reinforced by literally every single thing. Goku is just straight stupid. This isn't being offensive, this isn't disparaging the character, it's part of who he is. It's what fuels the series comedy that he's too dense to do anything but fight in the most straight forward way possible. Hence why he seems to have forgotten he can use instant transmission in combat, hence why he's a radish farmer with his ridiculous physical power instead of literally any other physical profession that'd be more profitable, hence why he lets his enemies live to gloat at them until he gets shot in the back by one of their minions.

Also not learning their lesson only reinforces the point, if he's the type of character who will stop and throw away his lead in the odd umpteenth 0.001% of times the fight would go perfectly his way, he's not going to win that 0.001% of the time.

I don't disagree but if you want to demonstrate Goku's stupidity by combat tactics Superman is right up there...and Superman is canon brilliant, with all the collected knowledge in the universe in his head, a massive robot army at his command, alien weaponry and the ability to create protective suits...yet how often does Superman go right up to his obviously potentially dangerous opponent and take whatever they have to dish out?

[Legato Endless]

Snip

Yeah, Goku's complete lack of adaptability or growth as a fighter despite his years of tactical experience makes me very sympathetic to this point. This is no where near the level of tactical Batman wizards that's oft complained of in OOTS, this is just asking a character to demonstrate some basic problem solving after having it bite him in the ass after years. Alternatively, Goku is an adrenaline junkie who simply prolongs battle even when he knows it's impractical, but that amounts to essentially the same thing. Place against someone who can keep up with him relatively in terms of power and ability that demonstrates some decent tactical acumen, and Goku is rather screwed.

[Fan]

Goku is...not particularly intelligence. It's not just a matter of education, his intelligence (or lack thereof) is remarked on and he will repeatedly do dumb things for comic effect even after being corrected.

It's really a running joke in the comic.



I don't disagree but if you want to demonstrate Goku's stupidity by combat tactics Superman is right up there...and Superman is canon brilliant, with all the collected knowledge in the universe in his head, a massive robot army at his command, alien weaponry and the ability to create protective suits...yet how often does Superman go right up to his obviously potentially dangerous opponent and take whatever they have to dish out?

Goku being dumb isn't even really contestable, dude's a canon and straight up idiot. That I've had to drive the point home this far to someone who's seen the show and read the manga is honestly kind of disheartening.

Anyways, on to the second point.

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Goku being dumb isn't even really contestable, dude's a canon and straight up idiot. That I've had to drive the point home this far to someone who's seen the show and read the manga is honestly kind of disheartening.

Superman does fight smart though, he uses his knowledge of anatomy to deal crippling blows that leave someone incapacitated rather than killed most of the time, and other time's he's using heat vision to lobotomize someone who's demonstrated that they are completely beyond reform when needed.

He can even take it a step further and control the temperature of his heat vision so accurately that he has it down to the degree, this is combined with his ability to know the boiling points of superhuman beings at a glance:

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and for the heat vision lobotomy he does so with enough knowledge of human anatomy to avoid turning the person into a vegetable mid combat:

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So Superman has demonstrated his combat competency beyond being a brutish wall of super fast meat.

As for the story line, Scott Snyder specifically went on record saying none of the people involved who were "Joker"-ized were operating at anything near their full combat capability, this includes being physically weaker and slower.

I ALSO hate the modern bat-wank as I think it's gotten to a point where the character has abandoned everything that made him good, and I agree with you on the point that the writing is complete garbage in that story, but that's besides the point. I feel the same about a lot of modern DC, I don't even like Modern Superman anymore, the writing's degraded to a point where they've made me stop caring about a character that anyone who knows me knows that I have a passion for. However, whether I like something or not has no impact on whether it'd win a versus match, as I've said before.

[Anteros]

That story were also one of the must stupid stories i have yet to see in DC canon, its like the authors were holding a circle fanwank for batman, and this were the result.

Batman, against the entire JLA?.... seriously

Its dumb enough that the joker were allowed to get the drop on them like that, and i would use much sharper words were i allowed to do so.

But the speed difference is so massive, that either WW or Superman should have tagged him with a grazing hit (read, grazing for them. Thats something that would leave Batman a red smear on the road)

It was incredibly stupid. Wonder woman slams him hard enough to crack concrete with his bare face and he isn't even scratched. I'm sure it's possible to write a good story where Batman fights the league, but that isn't it.

I picked it just to highlight how ridiculous it was.

[Traab]

I dont follow dc comics much, but isnt that basically the issue with trying to make it so batman can hang with a league of heroes so freaking powerful that its beyond absurd? Men who can move fast enough to evacuate a city in mid nuclear explosion and noone gets hurt, or who can punch planets out of orbit and use them as bullets if they so desired. And meanwhile you have batman who is smart and good at martial arts. Yeah, there is no way in hell batman should reasonably be able to stand with the league. At best he should be the background computer research guy. He is the one who puts the clues together and fills in the people currently punching gods in the face that the weak spot is the third vertebrae down. But instead, because batman is so popular, they have to make him equally epic, so you get bat god, lord of prep, able to overthrow freaking gods with a clever plan and a few hours to get ready.

[Anteros]

I dont follow dc comics much, but isnt that basically the issue with trying to make it so batman can hang with a league of heroes so freaking powerful that its beyond absurd? Men who can move fast enough to evacuate a city in mid nuclear explosion and noone gets hurt, or who can punch planets out of orbit and use them as bullets if they so desired. And meanwhile you have batman who is smart and good at martial arts. Yeah, there is no way in hell batman should reasonably be able to stand with the league. At best he should be the background computer research guy. He is the one who puts the clues together and fills in the people currently punching gods in the face that the weak spot is the third vertebrae down. But instead, because batman is so popular, they have to make him equally epic, so you get bat god, lord of prep, able to overthrow freaking gods with a clever plan and a few hours to get ready.

They usually do a fair job of keeping him behind the scenes, or keeping his parts on the front lines sensible by comic book standards. There's just a few very bad exceptions.

To be fair though, this particular Batman story was basically supposed to be his climactic arc in the New52, so I understand why they wanted to showcase the character. The way they went about it was just poor.

On Goku: Fan, I know you're smart enough to understand the implications that Goku can both give and withstand blows stated to be strong enough to destroy the entire universe just with their shock waves. It might be completely insane bull poop, but it's still canon completely insane bull poop. In any scenario where he doesn't let his guard down and get sucker punched by Superman he wins. Full stop.

There is literally nothing to argue unless Supes has some feat I haven't seen where he puts out enough power to destroy all of existence.

[Jayngfet]

Superman does, in fact, handle Universe enders. If I remember right he was one of the last men standing against Parallax, who DID destroy the universe.

The latest episode of Super shows that's not even consistent anyway. Shockwaves like that scare the CRAP out of Goku.

[Anteros]

Superman does, in fact, handle Universe enders. If I remember right he was one of the last men standing against Parallax, who DID destroy the universe.

The latest episode of Super shows that's not even consistent anyway. Shockwaves like that scare the CRAP out of Goku.

The powered up Universe ending version of Parralax knocked him out in one hit without getting hurt at all.

I didn't see anything in the most recent episode that would contradict what I've said. Of course he's not crazy about people casually almost destroying the universe, but it doesn't make him weaker.

[Kato]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go

[Anteros]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go

Sorry. I didn't mean to bring it to that to start with. I just used it as an example, and then someone asked a question, and now here we are. I'll drop it and not respond to any more responses about it so we don't derail further though.

[Lethologica]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go

That would have promoted the debate to people's attention and gotten us there faster.

[Sith_Happens]

There is literally nothing to argue unless Supes has some feat I haven't seen where he puts out enough power to destroy all of existence.

Didn't someone say earlier in this thread that he literally bench-pressed the universe once? Personally I find that more impressive than simply smashing everything in the universe.

[lord_khaine]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go

We can instad move the focus towards how mind-numbingly dumb the Batman vs the JLA fight were. Or how directly stupid it is if Batman got even a glancing hit from someone able to trade punches with Superman, without going down.

Or talk about how the fight should have gone, if it were being made properly, and Batman still had to win?

[Dragonus45]

Batman VS the JLA would have to be a serious guerrilla warfare kind of deal, and honestly even though its a fight I could see him pulling out on top of I really don't want him do. Dude has enough BS floating around as is.

[Kyberwulf]

Firstly, I was wondering how long it was going to take to get to a Superman Vs. Goku fight.

lol.

ON the link with Batman Superman and Wonder Woman. I think it is being missed, that Superman thinks a lot faster then normal people. So even on a slow morning, after JUST waking up and before a morning coffee.. Superman should still be able to "Outthink" Muscle Memory.

Second. On Link vs. Cloud. I think it is being made to compare Game Mechanics vs. Game Mechanics. I think Link still would have won. Because Could doesn't usually bring anything with him on Missions. In game. Two. Almost EVERYTHING in Final Fantasy is optional. So saying Cloud should have anything is amazingly meh. Although to be fair. I did also think it was a little bunk that they give Link so much stuff.

Also, why I think Superman will always win against Goku. This isn't a Beatstick vs. a Beatstick. Personally, powerwise. I think Superman outclasses Goku. It's not just that though. It's that superman thinks, he isn't just known for being strong. It's also cause he uses his brain. Goku usually only thinks about one of two things. Food. Or fighting. And remember, just cause you think about about one thing, Doesn't automatically make you good at that one thing.

ON topic. I think DeathBattle is fair, as anything can be really.

[Reddish Mage]

DAMMIT, I should have stated my intent on this devolving into another Goku vs Supes debate when the thread started... I mean, it was unavoidable but maybe it would have given it a few more pages by making people realize how all of these go

Superman/Goku on versus threads is like Nazis on the Internet, sooner or later, someone is going to mention them (case in point).

[Anteros]

It's a thread about whether Death Battle is biased or not. Acting surprised that their most controversial battle has come up as part of the conversation is disingenuous.

Yes, we are talking about the topic of this thread within the thread. This should not surprise anyone.

We can instad move the focus towards how mind-numbingly dumb the Batman vs the JLA fight were. Or how directly stupid it is if Batman got even a glancing hit from someone able to trade punches with Superman, without going down.

Or talk about how the fight should have gone, if it were being made properly, and Batman still had to win?

If I had to re-write it I'd keep the mind control aspect, but have Batman receive a warning slightly in advance and he has to keep them from some goal. Not necessarily have them trying to kill him, but maybe some other target and he has to stop them. If you let him prepare the battlefield well in advance, or bring the fight to them it's at least a bit more believable than having Wonder Woman shove his bare face through concrete and he's not even disoriented.

One of the things to remember about Batman's defenses against the other league members is that it's typically the league helping him build and test these things in case he ever needs them. It's a lot easier to fight Cyborg when Cyborg helped you make the gear to hack him. It's a lot easier to fight Wonder Woman when she gives you the lasso needed to defeat her. Etc.

[Traab]

Didn't someone say earlier in this thread that he literally bench-pressed the universe once? Personally I find that more impressive than simply smashing everything in the universe.

Well in the screw attack description they talk about him lifting a book with infinite pages. Also lifting specter, who is made up of eternity. So yeah, superman can lift infinity and eternity. Thats how balls out insane the feats get. According to THOSE feats, if goku unleashed enough power to destroy the universe, superman would shove the universe out of the way. Seriously though, its a pointless argument specifically because of these absurd feats on both sides.

[Fan]

They usually do a fair job of keeping him behind the scenes, or keeping his parts on the front lines sensible by comic book standards. There's just a few very bad exceptions.

To be fair though, this particular Batman story was basically supposed to be his climactic arc in the New52, so I understand why they wanted to showcase the character. The way they went about it was just poor.

On Goku: Fan, I know you're smart enough to understand the implications that Goku can both give and withstand blows stated to be strong enough to destroy the entire universe just with their shock waves. It might be completely insane bull poop, but it's still canon completely insane bull poop. In any scenario where he doesn't let his guard down and get sucker punched by Superman he wins. Full stop.

There is literally nothing to argue unless Supes has some feat I haven't seen where he puts out enough power to destroy all of existence.

In DBZ people blow hot smoke all the time about how strong they are. I've said this before, Cell's Kamehameha would not have destroyed the Solar System, and saying that you can destroy the universe with shockwaves doesn't make it true. When it actually happens, then we'll have a fight.

Statements aren't a valid measurement of a character's ability in DBZ or in ANY canon.

[Lord Raziere]

In DBZ people blow hot smoke all the time about how strong they are. I've said this before, Cell's Kamehameha would not have destroyed the Solar System, and saying that you can destroy the universe with shockwaves doesn't make it true. When it actually happens, then we'll have a fight.

Statements aren't a valid measurement of a character's ability in DBZ or in ANY canon.

Kid Buu would like a word with you.

Well he would if he spoke, he mostly just blew up planets nonstop without getting tired. and Goku in response fire a kamehameha that cut a moon in half. there is also the part where Piccolo destroyed the moon on Earth, and Freeza really did destroy Namek, and Super Buu killed the entire population of Earth from just standing on one spot and blasting one attack and thus wasting the Z-Fighters attempt to buy time.....

oh and Beerus who doesn't boast, he reminisces when he destroys things like entire star quadrants or wipes out the dinosaurs, or Golden Freeza who successfully destroyed Earth before time was rewound. in seconds. and these people are holding back. the person who didn't was....KID BUU.

and he might be actually harder for Superman to kill than Goku. tireless, completely ruthless and will blow up your planet without even caring to fight you, and a very powerful regenerative ability that prevents any laser lobotomy tricks. and how he died isn't because the Spirit Bomb is powerful- its more like that its a holy weapon, and Kid Buu is pure evil, so its more a purification kind of thing than raw power. a power which Superman lacks, that and Kid Buu is basically a magical reality-warper, so big weakness for Supes there, he is vulnerable to magic after all, and Kid Buu is nothing if not magic.

[Fan]

Kid Buu would like a word with you.

Well he would if he spoke, he mostly just blew up planets nonstop without getting tired. and Goku in response fire a kamehameha that cut a moon in half. there is also the part where Piccolo destroyed the moon on Earth, and Freeza really did destroy Namek, and Super Buu killed the entire population of Earth from just standing on one spot and blasting one attack and thus wasting the Z-Fighters attempt to buy time.....

oh and Beerus who doesn't boast, he reminisces when he destroys things like entire star quadrants or wipes out the dinosaurs, or Golden Freeza who successfully destroyed Earth before time was rewound. in seconds. and these people are holding back. the person who didn't was....KID BUU.

and he might be actually harder for Superman to kill than Goku. tireless, completely ruthless and will blow up your planet without even caring to fight you, and a very powerful regenerative ability that prevents any laser lobotomy tricks. and how he died isn't because the Spirit Bomb is powerful- its more like that its a holy weapon, and Kid Buu is pure evil, so its more a purification kind of thing than raw power. a power which Superman lacks, that and Kid Buu is basically a magical reality-warper, so big weakness for Supes there, he is vulnerable to magic after all, and Kid Buu is nothing if not magic.

Freiza's "5 minutes" quote yes, the one that was clearly wrong as well. Also he didn't straight up destroy the planet, he just destabilized it enough that it broke apart and destroyed itself.

Kid Buu's feats and endurance have nothing to do with Goku because Goku didn't beat Kid Buu in one go, he had to be wished back to full power and have a spirit bomb to defeat Kid Buu. Not to mention Vegeta fought him before that as well.

Also again, Beerus hasn't done anything to back up his claims, and people in DB like to blow hot smoke all the time.

Ki isn't magic, we've been over this a dozen times. Also New Superman isn't vulnerable to magic as he has taken a planet busting magic explosion and didn't die from it.

Again, call me when these people actually do the things they're talking about.

[Lord Raziere]

Kid Buu blew up a bunch of planets. On screen. with seconds between each one. he didn't boast, he just did it. no hot smoke blown there. Golden Freeza blew up Earth in seconds, shown on screen once again

neither of them talked about doing these feats, they did it, they succeeded, anyone who watched it, saw it.

so....yes, DBZ people boast a lot, but here is the thing: they have good reason to. they can do these things with certainty, and with certainty comes confidence, and with confidence comes boasting. no one knows their own limits more than a fighter. and no one knows the importance of control more than a fighter. I mean- DBZ is basically space opera Wuxia, y'know how that genre operates- having good control of your power is just as important as having power. I wouldn't mistake not doing those feats with not being capable.

mostly because the people who prove that all of them can do these feats are incredibly evil. because the people fighting these people who did them, are on the same level of power and fire off attacks of similar potency. so I'm going with stated stuff, otherwise your just using "seeing is believing" fallacy. just because we can't see gravity or what the conditions are like in a distant country, doesn't mean we don't accept them as facts.

and no, Kid Buu IS magic, he is a demon made of it. I mean you do know that "Majin" means "Demon" right? and Buu is the first Majin right? So he is a demon, and demons are magic.

[Fan]

Kid Buu blew up a bunch of planets. On screen. with seconds between each one. he didn't boast, he just did it. no hot smoke blown there. Golden Freeza blew up Earth in seconds, shown on screen once again

neither of them talked about doing these feats, they did it, they succeeded, anyone who watched it, saw it.

so....yes, DBZ people boast a lot, but here is the thing: they have good reason to. they can do these things with certainty, and with certainty comes confidence, and with confidence comes boasting. no one knows their own limits more than a fighter. and no one knows the importance of control more than a fighter. I mean- DBZ is basically space opera Wuxia, y'know how that genre operates- having good control of your power is just as important as having power. I wouldn't mistake not doing those feats with not being capable.

mostly because the people who prove that all of them can do these feats are incredibly evil. because the people fighting these people who did them, are on the same level of power and fire off attacks of similar potency. so I'm going with stated stuff, otherwise your just using "seeing is believing" fallacy. just because we can't see gravity or what the conditions are like in a distant country, doesn't mean we don't accept them as facts.

and no, Kid Buu IS magic, he is a demon made of it. I mean you do know that "Majin" means "Demon" right? and Buu is the first Majin right? So he is a demon, and demons are magic.

Again, magic doesn't matter to Superman anymore. Even in Pre New 52 he had anti magic wards from Zatanna and The Phantom Stranger.

Also, Kid Buu still gets destroyed by planet busting explosions, meaning one blast of heat vision would end that fight anyways. Being magic, and having your attacks come from magic are different things, especially in the DB Universe. You have people like Roshi's Sister who are highly talented in magic but have no ki, people like Babidi who have a decent amount of both (Babidi apparently is an equal to Freiza when it comes to Ki. Weird but hey.), and then people like Majiin Buu who are Demons.

Demons are not magic in Dragon Ball, they are denizens of another realm, Buu has strange anatomy for sure, but as an alien being who predates most of the universe this can all be explained by a huge pool of ki and an insane healing factor.

You should read this sometime. Majiin are a species not comprised of magic. You're just wrong here. Majiin Buu wasn't made, he was awakened. In fact, in every single medium where Buu interacts with magic it's made pretty clear that he has no natural control over it. In Dragonball Heroes, Xenoverse, AND In Shin Budokai another road he has to absorb Babidi to use magic, or he's controlled by Demigra's magic without being able to resist. Also nowhere in any of his stat books is he described as a magical being at all.

You are in fact, just wrong.

The only thing that describes the species is from Saikyo Jump #6 where "The first member of this race known is the original Majin Buu, who has existed since time immemorial, cycling between rampages and long hibernation, and was summoned once again 5 million years before Age by the evil wizard Bibidi."

Canon, author authorized proof that he is a being that was born, and is fact not made of magic. Do they use some magical attacks in the case of like, The Candy Beam? Sure, but that's a staple of Demons in the DB universe. All of them have some magical attack they can use, like Dabura's Spit, or Spike The Devil Man's anti evil laser beam. They are no more composed of it than a mage would be made out of magic.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok whatever.

let forget about that then. mostly because I just stopped caring when that post was so long.

[Fan]

Ok whatever.

let forget about that then. mostly because I just stopped caring when that post was so long.

TL;DR is your response. Well, I'll let this one speak for itself.

[Jayngfet]

Magic in Dragon Ball is a tricky subject. As Death Battle correctly pointed out, magic and ki fighting are very different concepts. The Kamehameha is ki. Babidi's shield is magic. They have basically zero overlap and the only way they can be done together is if you have skills in both simultaneously, like Piccolo evidently does, because he's got his fathers memories and Vegeta mentions all Namekians are magic. Which is why Guru can do the potential unlock elder kai only got after becoming magic himself.

So in a practical sense, Goku can't even use magic on Superman. So to bring it back to it's original point, Goku couldn't harm him even if we consider the weakness to be "in play".

[Lord Raziere]

well if your going to like that: life is too short to waste on this nonsense for me. hope you like winning these arguments and all the work you put into this, cause I don't. just not enjoyable or worth my time, so why bother?

I'm quitting. I know when to fold 'em, no shame in that.