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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0 View Post
    Well, I'm not sure if anyone has ever given me a straight up life based thing before that wasn't tainted with complete destruction. Also that feat seems surprisingly balanced for what it does.
    Figured I go for the Phoenix part of your name.
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  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Im up for the outsiders/elementals notion (especially considering elementals are outsiders in pathfinder) though would it be outsider subtypes, outsider races, members of outsider races, or unique outsiders? (Let it to be known, I want to be native to the Shattered Night, the Far Realm, the Shadow Plane, or a Quasi-elemental plane if D&D.. or to the Shadow plane, the abyss, the tapestry, or outside/between the planes if pathfinder. If i get created at all, which I am among the least worthy of here.)
    For instance;

    1. This is (blank), a type of (alignment) outsider native to the (something or other) plane and here are the stats common do them.

    2. This is (blank), a type of (demon/devil/ect.) and here are the stats common to them.

    3. This is (blank), who is a(n) (balor/chain devil/solar/ect.) and here is their stats.

    or

    4. This is (blank), they are an (outsider/elemental) of the (something) subtype, and here is their stats.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2016-01-27 at 11:24 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    Im up for the outsiders/elementals notion (especially considering elementals are outsiders in pathfinder) though would it be outsider races, members of outsider races, or unique outsiders?


    1. This is (blank), a type of (alignment) outsider native to the (something or other) plane and here are the stats common do them.

    2. This is (blank), a type of (demon/devil/ect.) and here are the stats common to them.

    3. This is (blank), who is a(n) (balor/chain devil/solar/ect.) and here is their stats.

    or

    4. This is (blank), they are an (outsider/elemental) of the (something) subtype, and here is their stats.
    My guess would be a combination of 1, 2, and 4. I'm pretty sure we're creating types of outsiders/elementals, rather as an entire race, or a subtype of an already-existing race.
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  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Actually. I thought we'd be making either races, or unique outsiders.
    Last edited by Illven; 2016-01-27 at 11:31 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #335
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Well there was as unique fiends being bandied about which as unique fiends aren't pit fiends (unless they're Bel), cornugons, gelugons, etc but unique fiends that'd be 4.

    There was also talk about a few different types of as outsider typed monsters which would be more 2.. I think. Here is Lopaligans or Loyalty Devils, they are a race of Baatezu said to be derived from souls of fallen paladins who... stats for the species.
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  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Spoiler: This is turning into a quite long chapter.
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  7. - Top - End - #337
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Actually. I thought we'd be making either races, or unique outsiders.
    We actually did both playable races and NPCs, so it's kind of tricky.
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Modrons are hurt. The original truly alien PC. The original semi-construct semi-alive PC. The original inhabitants of Mechanus. The ones which are actually Outsiders. The ones which have 3.0 Web Enhancement stats and 3.5 Dragon Mag stats. And they're forgotten.

    And yeah Slaad are just ??? Like seriously. I guess they represent chaos and illogic in the sheer What the Cage of it all. I mean Law has the Modrons (not suitable for persona based expansion really), inevitables (much more ripe for it), formians (they are also ripe), and even some stray entities of pure reason and stuff. Chaos has... the bariaur which are goat-centaurs from Ysgard, and the Slaad. Like I can't think of any that matter that aren't shared equally with Good or Evil. And yeah Demons out number Devils in variety but quality over quantity.
    Hadn't heard of Modrons before. I'll keep them in mind for a campaign I'm running later.

    Which is why I decided Fey were Chaotic Outsiders. You have the Seelie (more likely to be nice) and Unseelie (more likely to be complete jerks) but all of them represent freedom and individuality. Sure, they might form societies, but they each act on their own volition.
    Last edited by illyahr; 2016-01-28 at 10:24 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #339
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Was failing to find a Modron brofist image when I stumbled across the most adorable image of horrifying fiat fuel ever...
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  10. - Top - End - #340
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    Hadn't heard of Modrons before. I'll keep them in mind for a campaign I'm running later.

    Which is why I decided Fey were Chaotic Outsiders. You have the Seelie (more likely to be nice) and Unseelie (more likely to be complete jerks) but all of them represent freedom and individuality. Sure, they might form societies, but they each act on their own volition.
    I can see why and respect the fit. Personally I'd rather brew up a whole new thing... actually I'd not really have a defining species for Limbo for a few reasons*... because I like the old (pre-D&D) representation of Fay acting on a wholly different and alien set of laws (can't lie, can't touch iron being the two most common and well known). Part of the problem, though, is that D&D through Greek nature spirits in with faeries whole clothe when they are very clearly not the same thing**.

    *The basic rule of the Planes is that each of the 9 purely X alignment planes has its own native outsider species, in order from Mount Celestia: Archon, Guardinal, Eladrin, Slaad, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths, Baatezu, Modrons, and on the Outlands the Rilmani. 3.5 broke with this with adding the Obyriths but still you have your 9 iconics. Carceri breaks it a bit with the demodands (FF in 3.0) but those are just twisted 'loths with too much Chaos in them so only half count. Now Chaos is about a few things. One is not being so easy to predict, resisting categorization, and another is variety, look at how there are 2? 3? times as many types of demons as devils and that's without getting into obyriths and loumura or whatever they're called. So I'd actually say make 2-3 groups which each could claim to be the dominant Outsider type, sort of like on Mechanus***, but mostly give Limbo a lot of unrelated outsider species. Instead of Baatezu it just has one weird type of Limbo spawn completely unrelated to the others after another.

    **Well ok you could argue they were analogous to the things that became fay but that gets into too much real world myth discussion and talk about how myths came about to go into here.

    ***Funny that Law has three species but we can blame Orcus for decimating the modrons allowing the formians to take hold and the inevitables were made by a guy who demonstrated absolutely no love for the old planar cosmology, whose modules traditionally introduced half-baked alternate cosmologies, and who was then put in charge of writing the Manual of the Planes. I am still sore about this.

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    Was failing to find a Modron brofist image when I stumbled across the most adorable image of horrifying fiat fuel ever...
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  11. - Top - End - #341
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post



    Put it away. Put it away. What has been seen cannot be unseen!
    this is why they dont teach flesh magic on arcane schools a sword Erinaceus that some Cthulhu infused idea lol

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    I can see why and respect the fit. Personally I'd rather brew up a whole new thing... actually I'd not really have a defining species for Limbo for a few reasons*... because I like the old (pre-D&D) representation of Fay acting on a wholly different and alien set of laws (can't lie, can't touch iron being the two most common and well known). Part of the problem, though, is that D&D through Greek nature spirits in with faeries whole clothe when they are very clearly not the same thing**.

    *The basic rule of the Planes is that each of the 9 purely X alignment planes has its own native outsider species, in order from Mount Celestia: Archon, Guardinal, Eladrin, Slaad, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths, Baatezu, Modrons, and on the Outlands the Rilmani. 3.5 broke with this with adding the Obyriths but still you have your 9 iconics. Carceri breaks it a bit with the demodands (FF in 3.0) but those are just twisted 'loths with too much Chaos in them so only half count. Now Chaos is about a few things. One is not being so easy to predict, resisting categorization, and another is variety, look at how there are 2? 3? times as many types of demons as devils and that's without getting into obyriths and loumura or whatever they're called. So I'd actually say make 2-3 groups which each could claim to be the dominant Outsider type, sort of like on Mechanus***, but mostly give Limbo a lot of unrelated outsider species. Instead of Baatezu it just has one weird type of Limbo spawn completely unrelated to the others after another.
    It worked for a while when the concepts were simpler. The problem then becomes that there are multiple meanings and outlooks in each alignment. Chaos isn't just unpredictablity, it is also freedom. In that regard, you'd need a race that represents (formed of) the concept of unpredictability and one that represents (formed of) the various kinds of freedom. I use fey as the freedom aspect. We need a race that represents unpredictability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Put it away. Put it away. What has been seen cannot be unseen!
    I don't even know what I'm looking at with that one. Is it a reference of some kind?
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  14. - Top - End - #344
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    I don't even know what I'm looking at with that one. Is it a reference of some kind?
    I thought the picture was rather cute myself... then I realized it was The Lady of Pain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiver View Post
    How much terrain does the forty foot long, flying, fire breathing lizard which may or may not have magic consider its domain?

    As much as it god damn wants.
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  15. - Top - End - #345
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    It worked for a while when the concepts were simpler. The problem then becomes that there are multiple meanings and outlooks in each alignment. Chaos isn't just unpredictablity, it is also freedom. In that regard, you'd need a race that represents (formed of) the concept of unpredictability and one that represents (formed of) the various kinds of freedom. I use fey as the freedom aspect. We need a race that represents unpredictability.
    You've got the eladrin to emphasize the freedom aspect, and that falls more in Ysgard and Arborea's domains than Limbo's anyway depending upon if the emphasis is personal freedom (CN) or freedom is the right of all sentient beings (Optimus CG), but if you were going with a single dominant species on Limbo you'd probably want a Freedom Spirit one, but you'd not need a whole subtype worth of Freedom. But the iconic dominant outsider species never represents the entirety of that alignment, Baatezu get the closest, every other species emphasizes a single aspect. Modrons are thoughtless order, slaad are probably a reference to something that spun out of control and ended up the basic creatures of Limbo for some dumb reason, eladrin are defined by being Knight-Errants who fight to protect the freedom of choice in mortals by killing evil, guardinals are defined by... killing evil, archons are self-perfection actually but most noteworthy examples are one who veer to the destructive aspects of LG, yugoloths are pure mercenaries, tanar'ri are the destructive aspects of Chaos and Evil. The baatezu are the most well-rounded representatives of their alignment, but it's a low bar.

    Personally, I think we should do GiantITP Regulars as Fiends, GiantITP Regulars as Celestials, and GiantITP Regulars as non-Evil/non-Good Outsiders as three separate threads.

    I don't even know what I'm looking at with that one. Is it a reference of some kind?
    Lady of Pain, enigmatic being able to mark off her territory, keep the gods out, and kill one of the most powerful gods in the multiverse. Sort of the source of "if it has stats they will kill it" in that was the designers' quote for why he hadn't given her stats and never would. One of the few beings that might be as powerful or more so, in her territory, as the strongest representations of Asmodeus. Her power level is literally plot device.

    Honestly I thought the pic was cute, but it was more fun to go with the gag and to make an obtuse reference to unseenmage's name.
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    You've got the eladrin to emphasize the freedom aspect, and that falls more in Ysgard and Arborea's domains than Limbo's anyway depending upon if the emphasis is personal freedom (CN) or freedom is the right of all sentient beings (Optimus CG), but if you were going with a single dominant species on Limbo you'd probably want a Freedom Spirit one, but you'd not need a whole subtype worth of Freedom. But the iconic dominant outsider species never represents the entirety of that alignment, Baatezu get the closest, every other species emphasizes a single aspect. Modrons are thoughtless order, slaad are probably a reference to something that spun out of control and ended up the basic creatures of Limbo for some dumb reason, eladrin are defined by being Knight-Errants who fight to protect the freedom of choice in mortals by killing evil, guardinals are defined by... killing evil, archons are self-perfection actually but most noteworthy examples are one who veer to the destructive aspects of LG, yugoloths are pure mercenaries, tanar'ri are the destructive aspects of Chaos and Evil. The baatezu are the most well-rounded representatives of their alignment, but it's a low bar.
    This is exactly my point. Slaads aren't anything. Slaad's are like Githyanki and Githzeri. They're there, but they don't represent anything. Fey are full-on Chaotic, with Good aligned Fey and Eladrin being almost the same thing and Evil-aligned Fey being very nearly Demons.




    These are a Coure Eladrin and a Quasit Demon. If you ignore Slaad (and let's face it, everyone does), then Fey are a suitable substitute as the representatives of CN.
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    ...

    Personally, I think we should do GiantITP Regulars as Fiends, GiantITP Regulars as Celestials, and GiantITP Regulars as non-Evil/non-Good Outsiders as three separate threads.
    I agree for what that's worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    ...

    Honestly I thought the pic was cute, but it was more fun to go with the gag and to make an obtuse reference to unseenmage's name.

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Masterkerfuffle domain.

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    1 Summon undead 1
    2 Unholy storm
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    6 Harm
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    8 Veil of undeath
    9 Plague of undead


    Masterkerfuffle devotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Masterkerfuffle domain.

    Granted power If you were healed by positive energy, you are now healed by negative energy. If you were already healed my negative energy. you gain 1 additional hit point when ever you are healed by negative energy.

    1 Summon undead 1
    2 Unholy storm
    3 Clutch of orcus
    4 Evard's black tentacles
    5 Contagion mass
    6 Harm
    7 Horrid wilting.
    8 Veil of undeath
    9 Plague of undead


    Masterkerfuffle devotion.

    Benefit. Once per day when creating, or summoning undead, you may enhance them. Giving them +4 Str, +4 Dex, and +2 additional hitpoints per hitdice.
    This is good stuff. I wonder if I can convince my DM to let me use it.

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    Slaads aren't anything. Slaad's are like Githyanki and Githzeri. They're there, but they don't represent anything. Fey are full-on Chaotic, with Good aligned Fey and Eladrin being almost the same thing and Evil-aligned Fey being very nearly Demons.
    D'aaah ! Begone, I love Slaadi !

    More rationally, I kinda like how we cannot make sense of, or find a spark of humanity, in Slaadi or Modrons. For Good and Evil are human-centered notions ; even if we cannot fully relate to Exemplars of either, we at least have a grasp on Good and Evil. Indeed, Good and Evil became the dominant opposition when humanoids arrived and spread, shifting the focus off the Law/Chaos war that had been raging on long before.
    Good and Evil are principles that have to do with individual beings and the way they interact ; Law and Chaos are principles that have to do with the cosmos itself and its very structure, or lack thereof. They're more ancient, less adaptable in terms of human thought. Whereas Evil was born the day a caveman first took a stone and murdered his neighbour, Law and Chaos had been warring ever since the first atom of non-organic matter had appeared in the universe.

    "Freedom" is what you get when you try to rationalize Chaos and make it human-friendly. But it's an extremely diluted notion. "Dissonance" for Chaos and "Harmony" for Law would be better in my opinion. (And that's basically what happens in the Valar's song in Tolkien). And Slaadi, without rhyme or reason, epitomize dissonance. (Though I dislike that the higher-ranking ones are Evil). Same as Modrons, who see every individual voice as a musical murder of their Universal Perfect Chord, epitomize harmony.

    I agree with your point about Fey, though. They represent an alien, whimsical mode of thought that to me, is a good middle point between human-chaotic and Slaad-chaotic. And if need be they could be a replacement Chaotic Outsider race. Even though there's all the fluff with nature.
    Last edited by Seto; 2016-01-29 at 05:03 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #351
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    dissonance cannot exist without harmony and vice-versa. at first this looks like a similar duality to good and evil but on closer inspection you find it is a deeper fundamental structure of the universe. also harmony and dissonance have nothing to do with law and chaos. law is at least as dissonant as chaos given its very nature is to order things implying a separation and subdivision of the universe. while chaos being more free form can easily be harmonious and fluid. defining law and chaos as different and opposite things is kind of futile as they are different sides of the same coin. They appear different yet act similar sometimes. it can be easy to pick out some aspects of law which is why some good outsider examples exist but it is much harder for chaos and there cannot be any examples defined by the full concepts of law and chaos because law and chaos are most clearly defined when looking at moderate examples. extremes only serve to confuse the two bringing out their similarities more than their differences.

    tldr; a good chaos extreme will never exist though fey are a good exemple given how close to not being extreme they are.
    Last edited by NeoPhoenix0; 2016-01-29 at 06:00 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0 View Post
    dissonance cannot exist without harmony and vice-versa. at first this looks like a similar duality to good and evil but on closer inspection you find it is a deeper fundamental structure of the universe. also harmony and dissonance have nothing to do with law and chaos. law is at least as dissonant as chaos given its very nature is to order things implying a separation and subdivision of the universe. while chaos being more free form can easily be harmonious and fluid. defining law and chaos as different and opposite things is kind of futile as they are different sides of the same coin. They appear different yet act similar sometimes. it can be easy to pick out some aspects of law which is why some good outsider examples exist but it is much harder for chaos and there cannot be any examples defined by the full concepts of law and chaos because law and chaos are most clearly defined when looking at moderate examples. extremes only serve to confuse the two bringing out their similarities more than their differences.

    tldr; a good chaos extreme will never exist though fey are a good exemple given how close to not being extreme they are.
    I meant that Law is about everything falling into place within a greater whole. When Law makes separations and subdivisions, it's always in reference to the whole. The perfect Lawful system is a finely-tuned set of infinitesimally precise subdivisions and details, all tied together to make the universe-machine work. Thus everything is perfect at every level, from microscopic to macroscopic. Systems within systems all within a great metasystem.
    Chaos has no greater purpose. It is the impossibility of perfect Law, the entropy inherent to being, the resistance that existence opposes to its subordination to a higher level. Chaos is the capacity for things to shape themselves, to go their separate ways without regard for any other thing in the universe.
    Thus the musical metaphor : Law is the tension towards harmonious resonance of all things, the point when a note is nothing but a prerequisite for the chord. Chaos is the emphasis on each melodic line, even if it's in a different key than the rest of the symphony. (Neutrality, of course, is the point where you hear each line in their singularity but they still have something to do with each other and it's nice to listen to )

    About acting similar when they're extreme, I don't see what you mean. I think Modrons are pretty obviously nothing like Slaadi. I rather agree with the impossibility of pure Chaos turning out Good. Extreme Chaos is incompatible with any sort of moral behavior, and it's bad for humanoids, but so is extreme Law (which is why I don't get why powerful Slaadi are CE but powerful Modrons are LN). Eladrins and Archons are possible because their Good nature takes precedence over their Chaotic/Lawful nature. (And I'd personally add that extreme Good and Evil are unwelcome in the mortal world, but that's just me).
    Last edited by Seto; 2016-01-29 at 07:09 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Without chaos the universe cannot function. It will simply stagnate an become a very boring place, devoid of life. It will simply exist with no choice, the only movement from automated structures and constructs.

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    *stays out of the Law v Chaos debate because would bring real world myth systems and German philosophers into it*

    Eh, I'll poke a bit. Moorcock. D&D Law and Chaos are highly reflective of his where 9 times out of 10 Chaos meant Evil, and Law meant Good. I mean there is clarification that Law without Chaos would be very, very bad for us, but 9 times out of 10 we want Law to win, and it is sort of why Modrons aren't Evil but Slaad are. Chaos and Evil are both defined as selfish, and the slaad are, they don't care for anyone but themselves and will go off on killing sprees for fun (see also slaad are not well thought through). The modrons don't do that because they are non-expansionist, unless you mess with a modron doing its duties appointed by cosmic law then it's not going to mess with you. It is, however, surprising that the formians are originally native to Arcadia and not Acheron, but since they dragged a whole layer of Arcadia into Mechanus with them maybe this is less surprising.

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    *gleefully clicks the link*
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Zaydos has his own homebrew thread? Why was I not told about this? I didn't know this was a thing!

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    Zaydos has his own homebrew thread? Why was I not told about this? I didn't know this was a thing!
    Yes, thread. Singular. Yes.

    >.> This is the third variation on Zaydos expands his homebrew threads I've made, and then there's the request thread.
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Yes, thread. Singular. Yes.

    >.> This is the third variation on Zaydos expands his homebrew threads I've made, and then there's the request thread.
    <.<
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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    If i remember correctly dnd used to be about law v chaos where chaos was very clearly wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Domains And Domain Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoPhoenix0 View Post
    If i remember correctly dnd used to be about law v chaos where chaos was very clearly wrong.
    I think Michael Moorcock can be thanked for inspiring that, to some degree anyways.
    Wait... What happened to my avatar? Oh well.

    Imagine if D&D/Pathfinder focused far more on Law vs Chaos, so much so that Proteans, Azata, and Demons cooperated when faced with Devils, Archon, and Inevitables?
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2016-01-29 at 04:32 PM.

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