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    RogueGuy

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    Default Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes it gets into some weird waters. There is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects. Also, as a team, we can collectively push the limits of our apparent intelligence.

    What is this?
    So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change


    All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! I will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.


    Point Allocation Rubric
    The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

    Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

    Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 point.

    If the suggestion is particularly powerful, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

    A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

    A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

    A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

    As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

    A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work a


    BIAS
    I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

    Other information
    All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

    This week's Feat is Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis (p. 25).

    This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on February 5th.



    Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy: VAZ
    Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity: ben-zayb
    Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack: WhamBamSam

    The Winner of Optimize this Feat #4: Contagious Paralysis is WhamBamSam

    Upcoming Schedule:
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    Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.

    Optimize this feat #5: Dungeonscape's Hammer and Piton p.45 (Thanks Darrin)
    Optimize this feat #6: Unearthed Arcana's Residual Rebound p. 94(Thanks ATHATH)
    Optimize this feat #7: Fiendish Codex 2's Mark of Phlegethos p.85
    Optimize this feat #8: Fey Feature's Unseelie Court Noble Kelir (web)
    Optimize this feat #9:To Be Determined ...(could be your suggestion! make a post and I'll consider it.)
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-02-07 at 05:39 PM.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    The Feat has the following effect

    Spoiler: Contagious Paralysis excerpt
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    Your paralyzing attack is contagious.
    Prerequisite
    You must have "Paralysis as an extraordinary or supernatural ability"
    Benefit
    Any creature paralyzed by your special attack can confer paralysis to other creatures that touch it. Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected as if you had delivered a paralyzing attack upon it (using the same save DC to resist, if allowed). If a creature successfully saves against your contagious paralysis attack, it can't be affected by your attack for 24 hours.


    Spoiler: Here is the paralysis condition
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    Paralyzed
    A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.


    I am going to begin spoilering possible optimization approaches in case you want to approach this with a blank slate. If you are unenthused, you can always check it for inspiration.


    Spoiler: Approaches to Optimizing the feat
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    Enemies being forced to touch the stunned person somehow: e.g. shocktrooper's domino rush.

    Getting this feat on a weird creature that can utilize it strangely: e.g. get it on a monk or binder or a prestige class

    Pairing the feat with an ability that can use the paralyzed foe for their own uses: e.g.: ...i don't know...rushed torture checks?

    Stunning yourself and using your paralyzed-self to activate this stuff somehow...telekinesis, maybe?

    2 Person team using fling ally feat with smaller team member readying a mental action to occur before collision.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-22 at 02:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    You could combine this with chicken-infested to throw paralyzed chickens.

    Spoiler: More serious suggestion
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    There's the unbodied, an incorporeal monstrous humanoid, with racial manifesting as a telepath. An unbodied thrallherd could stay paralyzed inside a solid 5' cube of adamantine, and be thrown by their hulking hurler thrall, while manifesting telepath powers all the time.

    The trouble is getting paralysis without being immune to it, but in this case, it doesn't have to be your own paralysis. You just need a (temporary) lich cohort. Or a lich enemy, really.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2016-01-22 at 12:14 PM.
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    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    The most obvious choice is to get some kind of forced movement (Dungeoncrasher?) to force the enemy you want to paralyze into the enemy you've already paralyzed, though it's a little bit unclear whether you can move though an ally's space (especially a paralyzed ally's space) without "touching" them.

    I don't feel like drawing up a full build for it, but you might have some better luck with the Fling Enemy feat from Races of Stone. And/or the Setting Sun throw maneuvers.
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    You could combine this with chicken-infested to throw paralyzed chickens.
    It gets worse. You can use the Distant Shot feat (DWK shenanigans) and the utterances Archer's Eye and Sensory Focus to lob paralysis chickens at anyone, anywhere.

    Of course, you can use a variant of this trick to paralyse every last living being in the universe.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Only 1 more point disbursement is available for chicken infested associated hijinx. Who will get it.

    Lovely ideas thus far.

    Rules Clarification: Is a paralyzed character helpless?
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-22 at 12:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Only 1 more point disbursement is available for chicken infested associated hijinx. Who will get it.

    Lovely ideas thus far.

    Rules Clarification: Is a paralyzed character helpless?
    Yes, it says so in the text.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yes, it says so in the text.
    I'm dumb. I think it has something to do with living near a bunch of superfund sites. But I might just be making excuses so you don't think too less of me.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Another trick: Put an immovable rod (or an infinite-level truenamer utterance, powered by the magic of garblers and heightening) into an energy transformation field, which has the spell teleport other inside it, set to transfer each of its targets to a location with a paralysed creature in it, which is also the furthest location from the ETF on the plane. When it has enough charges, it will teleport the nearest creature onto the pile of paralysed creatures, meaning that the ETF will just create a huge pile of paralysed creatures at the furthest location in existence from the ETF.

    What do you do with a massive pile of paralysed creatures? Well, you could steal all their souls, or use them for liquid pain, or all manner of other things. But also it's a nice way of paralysing everyone in an entire town.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Rules questions:
    A.)If two creatures are prone in the same space, do they simply keep paralyzing each other?

    B.) Assuming you make your save as the second creature to fall prone in a space, what DC of what skill do you need to move out of the space? Is a fallen body that can paralyze you count as difficult terrain? Can you crawl out as a full round action without having to make a save again?

    C.) Can you iron heart surge your way out of this?

    I love the pile of paralyzed bodies technique.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Rules questions:
    A.)If two creatures are prone in the same space, do they simply keep paralyzing each other?

    B.) Assuming you make your save as the second creature to fall prone in a space, what DC of what skill do you need to move out of the space? Is a fallen body that can paralyze you count as difficult terrain? Can you crawl out as a full round action without having to make a save again?

    C.) Can you iron heart surge your way out of this?

    I love the pile of paralyzed bodies technique.
    Yes.

    Creatures are not terrain, but if you're in contact with a creature you're paralysed an infinite number of times as state-based events, so unless the creature is somehow making a touch attack (which is only one touch, rather than an over-time state of touching) while paralysed, the save isn't actually helpful unless you somehow can't fail it.

    No; you need to move and you can't.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Yay. I'm not sure it's altogether fair for me to get scored this round, since I had recommended it in the first place and had a few pre-existing builds using it.

    The throwing/bull rushing of enemies is a good suggestion. I'll come back to it at the end, but first I'll go over some prior builds I made based on using paralyzed enemies as improvised weapons.

    Spoiler
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    Gravetouched Ghoul Human Passive Way Monk 2/Warblade 8/Crusader 3/Drunken Master 5
    1. Warblade 1 - Contagious Paralysis, Dodge (Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Steel Wind) (Hunter's Sense)
    2. Monk 1 - Contagious Paralysis, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise
    3. Monk 2 - Great Fortitude, Improved Trip
    4. Warblade 2 (Wall of Blades)
    5. Crusader 1 (Mountain Hammer, Crusader's Strike, Leading the Attack, Tactical Strike, Foehammer) (Iron Guard's Glare)
    6. Drunken Master 1 - Combat Reflexes
    7. Drunken Master 2
    8. Drunken Master 3
    9. Drunken Master 4 - Power Attack
    10. Crusader 2 (Thicket of Blades)
    11. Crusader 3 (Defensive Rebuke)
    12. Drunken Master 5 - Deceptive Dodge
    13. Warblade 3 (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, or Mithral Tornado)
    14. Warblade 4 (Trade Wolf Fang Strike for Pouncing Charge) (Leaping Dragon Stance)
    15. Warblade 5 - Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, or Mithral Tornado)
    16. Warblade 6 (Trade something for Manticore Parry)
    17. Warblade 7 (some maneuver)
    18. Warblade 8 (Trade something for Scything Blade)

    If multiclass penalties aren't an issue, take Crusader 4 instead of Drunken Master 5 and get WRT that way. If LA buyoff is allowed, take two more levels of Warblade to get your Adamantine Hurricane on.

    Wield a length of troll intestines as an improvised weapon. Outside of combat, chew on it with your bite constantly to keep it paralyzed and forestall the regeneration (it also freaks out other players and NPCs). Might also not be a bad idea to have a friendly caster lay down a few long term debuffs to its Fort save (Bestow Curse and the Greater version, etc) so it stays paralyzed and drain its Dex away as a fail safe. The Contagious Paralysis feat now lets you convey your Paralysis attack through it with iteratives and reach and everything. From there it's basically just a standard ToB AoO tripper but with a few neat wrinkles. Against natural attacks, use Deceptive Dodge or Manticore Parry to redirect an attack into an already paralyzed enemy or (more reliably and hilariously) your still alive length of intestine to make them trigger Contagious Paralysis. Stormguard Warrior also gets a good deal scarier when the touch attacks can paralyze.



    Going for a more castery build, a Gravetouched Ghoul Wizard build can keep a large creature paralyzed in gruesome, evil overlord style by eating from a troll's finger (the rest of the troll having been destroyed by fire) and then dunking the finger in an open wound of the (still alive) Area Attack weapon to continually paralyze them out of combat (the "troll" should regenerate more or less exactly what you deal with your bite). When combat starts, a Contingent Draconic Polymorph into an Ibraldin will make you large enough to qualify for and use Area Attack. I made a build for a Villainous Competition based on this a while back (though I didn't get it in on time, and in retrospect, the Area Attack+Channel Spell combo probably doesn't work).


    Gravetouched Ghoul is probably the best source of a Paralysis attack. RAI Paralyzing Touch should probably work, but it doesn't seem good enough to qualify by RAW. However, once you have "Paralysis" as an (Ex) or (Su) ability, you can use other paralyzing special attacks with Contagious Paralysis.

    A good one in this regard would be the Silver Dragon's paralyzing breath (likely acquired through a Cold breath weapon and a Crown of the North Wind). Using the Chicken Infested suggestion from earlier, I propose the following.

    Gravetouched Ghoul Half-Ogre (Or other large race with no RHD that is a valid base creature for Gravetouched Ghoul) Commoner 1/PsyWar X/Whatever Y. Get a Cold Breath Weapon from a Metabolic Fire Graft and a Crown of the North Wind. Besides Contagious Paralysis you want Tempest Breath (you can take it as an undead without Breath of Unlife, as it has a Str requirement, not a Con requirement). Breath of Unlife, Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, and Enlarge Breath might not be bad ideas either if you can fit them in though. Using Tempest Breath on your Paralyzing Breath, you can blow paralyzed chickens at people at hurricane force wind speeds. If you have Lingering Breath, then you can leave a wind tunnel which you can drop chickens into in subsequent rounds to send them flying paralyzed in the general direction of an enemy. Since it's large (gargantuan when expanded) anyway and Dungeoncrashing/Setting Sun throwing aren't too feat tight, you might be able to staple one of those two onto it as well. Especially fun if you can Bull Rush/Throw non-chicken targets into your wind tunnel for multiple paralysis opportunities.

    If you just want to Dungeoncrash, I'd just simplify my first build into Gravetouched Ghoul Passive Way or Cobra-Strike Monk 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Drunken Master 4/Whatever X. Keep Deceptive Dodge because it's funny and just requires feats (which you've got a bunch of). If you can stomach the extra LA, then go Goliath for Knockback, otherwise Human is the way to go. Beyond that, it's standard operating procedure for a Dungeoncrasher build. Get Shock Trooper for Domino Rush and Directed Rush and go to town.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Your paralyzing attack is contagious.
    Prerequisite
    You must have "Paralysis as an extraordinary or supernatural ability"
    Benefit
    Any creature paralyzed by your special attack can confer paralysis to other creatures that touch it. Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected as if you had delivered a paralyzing attack upon it (using the same save DC to resist, if allowed). If a creature successfully saves against your contagious paralysis attack, it can't be affected by your attack for 24 hours.
    Rather amusingly, the wording of this feat doesn't seem to require that the paralyzed creature remain paralyzed for it to spread paralysis. "Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected...". There doesn't seem to be any end or cure to this, so you could go around the local enemy kingdom paralyzing everyone in sight. They would paralyze anyone who touches them, ever. I'm sure there's an amusing way to utilize that.

    Another way to optimize it would be to convince everyone in your party to use unarmed strikes: unarmed swordsages, monks, fighters, barbarians, whatever. Paralyze them all at the start of the game. Anyone they touch/hit with their unarmed strike after that will have to save against paralysis. Hopefully your teammates can avoid paralyzing everyone (eg, merchants, friends, etc) they touch by wearing gloves or something, but the feat doesn't specify.

    Offer your services to the local army (for a price, of course). Paralyze as many soldiers as they want. Or heck, paralyze captives, which can later be used as siege ammunition that paralyzes enemies hit by it. Nothing lowers morale quite like your own troops being shot at you and paralyzing you. The main drawback would be a lack of range, but you can get around that with a necklace of natural attacks (with the throwing and returning enhancements), firing/throwing tiny creatures (or larger, if you have a hulking hurler available), or maybe being a bloodstorm blade (I'll have to reread their abilities to doublecheck, but I think they work on unarmed attacks. Upon doublechecking, you need to be able to throw your fists/whatever at people. Use the amulet or the detach feat for this).

    I'm sure the feat wasn't meant to be used like this, but it's pretty easy to optimize it when it has no end time. Pump the dc as high as you can and enjoy the show. I'll post a build stub later when I have more time.
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetapup View Post
    Rather amusingly, the wording of this feat doesn't seem to require that the paralyzed creature remain paralyzed for it to spread paralysis. "Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected...". There doesn't seem to be any end or cure to this, so you could go around the local enemy kingdom paralyzing everyone in sight. They would paralyze anyone who touches them, ever. I'm sure there's an amusing way to utilize that.

    Another way to optimize it would be to convince everyone in your party to use unarmed strikes: unarmed swordsages, monks, fighters, barbarians, whatever. Paralyze them all at the start of the game. Anyone they touch/hit with their unarmed strike after that will have to save against paralysis. Hopefully your teammates can avoid paralyzing everyone (eg, merchants, friends, etc) they touch by wearing gloves or something, but the feat doesn't specify.

    Offer your services to the local army (for a price, of course). Paralyze as many soldiers as they want. Or heck, paralyze captives, which can later be used as siege ammunition that paralyzes enemies hit by it. Nothing lowers morale quite like your own troops being shot at you and paralyzing you. The main drawback would be a lack of range, but you can get around that with a necklace of natural attacks (with the throwing and returning enhancements), firing/throwing tiny creatures (or larger, if you have a hulking hurler available), or maybe being a bloodstorm blade (I'll have to reread their abilities to doublecheck, but I think they work on unarmed attacks. Upon doublechecking, you need to be able to throw your fists/whatever at people. Use the amulet or the detach feat for this).

    I'm sure the feat wasn't meant to be used like this, but it's pretty easy to optimize it when it has no end time. Pump the dc as high as you can and enjoy the show. I'll post a build stub later when I have more time.
    You could easily also parse it in accordance with the RAI, taking "creature paralyzed by your special attack" to mean "creature [currently] paralyzed by your special attack" instead of "creature [that has at some point been] paralyzed by your special attack." I don't see a reason to take a deliberate cheese reading when the text doesn't support that reading any more than the intended one.

    I did recommend the use of paralyzed captives as siege ammunition/improvised weapons for Death's Chosen or undead minions in the unsubmitted Villainous Competition build I linked above. I think I focused on Drunken Masters, though Hulking Hurlers could also make good use of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    2 Person team using fling ally feat with smaller team member readying a mental action to occur before collision.
    I think this has some potential, but we should note that even if the thrown ally can perform mental actions, they're still vulnerable to CDG'ing and possibly to other things that work on helpless targets. That means we either need an ally that can be paralyzed but is immune to (at a minimum) crits, or we need to somehow be making use of that vulnerability. Fortification or a non-discernible anatomy would cover the first option.

    For the second, I propose use of Forced Share Pain, especially as our paralyzed pal is probably psionic anyway. They should probably also have the usual Vigor+Share Pain with Psicrystal combo up, and might benefit from a casting of Delay Death (or at least the Diehard feat) and perhaps a Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain as well. After they're used as a thrown weapon to send them wherever they're needed and paralyze an enemy (or two if we get Master Thrower or the like in on the fun), a third teammate (a Factotum 8/Whatever with the Death Blow feat and all the flat damage boosts you can get your hands on) will CDG them with a scythe a bunch of times to deal Forced Share Pain damage to some other enemy. Said Factotum may also find find utility in getting CDGs in on enemies on the verge of getting up from paralysis.

    Regarding the earlier Fling Enemy suggestion, can you actually use Fling Enemy to throw enemies at each other, or can you just throw them into a specific square?

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    I have a few little ideas that I tried patching up together, and even managed to make them all work by level 12 (assuming at least LA+1 buyout is ok)! This build assumes certain things, such as touch is two-way, in that anything you touch can be considered as touching you. Paralyzing yourself will make it next to impossible to touch others under your own power, but this build tries to get around that.
    Spoiler: Ol' Ztiv Jon
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    Diabolus Divine Minion Beguiler 1 / Ardent 11 / Fiend of Possession 6 / Void Disciple 1 / Mindbender 1
    Progression: B1/A2/F5/A3/V1/F6/M1/A11
    Mantles: Communication, Knowledge, Natural World, Magic
    Ability Scores: INT (at least 14) = WIS >> CON >> CHA >> DEX > STR

    Feats:
    1 Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell (Flaw: whatever), Versatile Spellcaster (Flaw: whatever)
    3 Spell Penetration
    6 Practiced Manifester
    9 Contagious Paralysis
    12 Assume Supernatural Ability (Xill's Planewalk)
    15/18 <whatever...Mindsight?>

    Tricks: Basics Our paralysis seed will be the Xill's sweet 1d4 hour CON-based paralysis, obtained at level 9 via Metamorphosis and your Outsider type. Of course, no benefit from Contagious Paralysis when not metamorphosed.

    (#1)Yeah, that's the Ticket: This is Ol' Stiv's favorite, most practical, and least rules-questionable trick. In addition to paralyzing your enemies, a Xill's Implant lets you lay an egg on them as a standard action. NO SAVE. Now, while some Alien action after 90 days is all hilarious, the funnier part is how this egg gets removed: via Remove Disease or a Heal check. Need I explain further?

    (#2)World of Paralysis: This trick hinges on the FoP's ability to animate Colossal non-continuous objects, the fact that Colossal size has no upper limits, and the reading that any creature can suppress its immunities. Basically, you animate something like a tree, a section of a floor, a puddle of water, an ocean, a mountain, a continental plate, "the atmosphere", or anything that can be described as non-continuous object that is in constant contact with a large number of creatures. Of course, you'll have the animated creature suppress the relevant immunities (Fort save & paralysis), and then let it forgo its saving throw for Paralysis. Voila!!

    (#3)The Carlton Special: This trick utilizes Void Disciple's Sense Void ability, in conjunction with using Paralysis on yourself, and then leaving your paralyzed body to touch other creatures. Once per day (or night, if you follow the original way this technique was done), a DC25 Spellcraft check enables you to touch and see your enemies from a thousand-mile range. Of course, you are still limited to the passing-by 1min/ML time limit of Metamorphosis.

    (#4)The Medusa: This trick utilizes Touchsight: you "see them", they get paralyzed on a failed fort save. Pretty simple...if it works.

    (#5)Dude, where's my car?: This trick utilizes the Xill's Planewalk ability, because paralyzed creatures are obviously helpless. Basically, everything you can turn to a helpless creature (like animated continental plates with suppressed immunities), you can send to the ethereal plane. Sweet!
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Choose your favorite source of a paralyzing attack, and take 7 levels in kineticist. Control Body is an excellent power that allows you to throw your victim around like a ragdoll. Target the enemy monk/monster with natural weapons first.

    Use standard concentration optimization to augment it, you're already psionic.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    You could easily also parse it in accordance with the RAI, taking "creature paralyzed by your special attack" to mean "creature [currently] paralyzed by your special attack" instead of "creature [that has at some point been] paralyzed by your special attack." I don't see a reason to take a deliberate cheese reading when the text doesn't support that reading any more than the intended one.
    I do. The reason is fun.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Spoiler: Arrus Steeludder, the Horned Hobo
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    Backstory:

    Born in a savage land to a minotaur mother and an orcish father, Arrus' childhood wasn't easy. The minotaurs of his tribe saw him as small and useless, while the orcs thought he was a mindless brute even dumber than they were.

    Arrus left his tribe at a young age, and dedicated himself to martial arts. Thousands of hours did he spend punching trees and throwing rocks, until one day he deemed himself fit to explore the world.

    One day, Arrus arrived in a city, where he became a mercenary fighting for whoever paid him. Yet luck was not on his side, and one day most of his company was killed by a group of adventurers. Struck with grief, Arrus tried to drown his sorrows.

    The minotaurling became an outcast who slowly wasted away in gutters. The will to live was gone from his body, and only his love for alcohol kept him going. Sometimes people saw him crawl through dark alleys, a liquor bottle in his hairy hand. Over time, parents started to scare their children with tales of 'the Horned Hobo' who would abduct and eat them if they didn't obey their parents.

    Then, one day, Arrus died. Yet only moments after perishing, his body stirred once more, and Arrus rose again. He looked around with surprise, then drank deeply from his bottle. The weakness of living in filth was gone from his body, but his hunger and thirst hadn't. The ghoulish minotaur didn't mind.

    Nowadays, Arrus roams the world looking for more food, whether flesh, blood, or liquor. Gluttony is his only drive, but it is a powerful drive. Arrus might be a villain, a beast, a wild card, or even an unlikely hero, but no matter what...

    there better be some booze for him.


    Arrus Steeludder:
    CE Gravetouched Ghoul Half-Minotaur Arctic Orc Ex-Cobra Style Monk 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 4/Drunken Master 10/Fighter 1

    Ability scores (32 point-buy):
    STR 36
    DEX 12
    CON -
    INT 10
    WIS 10
    CHA 12

    Feats:
    Level 1: Power Attack, DodgeB Improved Unarmed StrikeB
    Level 2: MobilityB
    Level 3: Great Fortitude
    Level 4: -
    Level 5: -
    Level 6: MultiattackB, Improved Multiattack
    Level 7: -
    Level 8: -
    Level 9: Contagious Paralysis
    Level 10: -
    Level 11: -
    Level 12: Ability Focus (Paralysis), Improved GrappleB
    Level 13: Improved FeintB
    Level 14: -
    Level 15: Improved Paralysis
    Level 16: -
    Level 17: Shock TrooperB

    Tactics:
    You begin battles by charging 100 ft. (not necessarily in a straight line) and full attacking. Three of your four natural attacks can inflict paralysis (DC 25 to resist), and you've got four unarmed strikes from Flurry of Blows, to go with this.

    Once you paralyze an enemy, you can pick them up and wield them as an improvised weapon. This gives you a slight damage boost, and (more importantly) makes your attacks with said enemy paralyze foes on contact. If you want to get even cheesier, you can enforce the rule that a natural 1 rolled by you kills whatever you are swinging around.

    In addition to all this, your strength is through the roof (40 while raging), and you've got power attack and shock trooper. Oh, and you'll also be stunning and bullrushing foes on a successful charge.

    Adaption:
    If LA buyoff is on the table, take Unorthodox Flurry as your 18th-level feat, which should let you make FoB attacks with your teeth. It fits the gluttony theme while also increasing your number of paralysis attempts.


    TL;DR Ubercharger paralyses foes, uses them as weapons, and paralyses more people.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2016-01-23 at 10:45 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    What a TO feat?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetapup
    Rather amusingly, the wording of this feat doesn't seem to require that the paralyzed creature remain paralyzed for it to spread paralysis. "Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected...". There doesn't seem to be any end or cure to this, so you could go around the local enemy kingdom paralyzing everyone in sight. They would paralyze anyone who touches them, ever. I'm sure there's an amusing way to utilize that.
    Funny! I swear, If I ever have legal troubles, I'm just going to print the text of the law in a spoiler and put it on the forum here...

    For the purpose of coralling the focus towards things that DM's allow, lets assume that the paralysis is only transmissible while a creature is suffering the effects of paralysis.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-23 at 02:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Surprised no on has mentioned this, as I thought it was fairly obvious. Could make a Lich Sorcerer that simply pick up this feat and abuses telekinesis with it. Simple Build:

    Spoiler
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    LE Undead (Human) Sorcerer
    Base Stats
    10 Str
    15 Dex
    - Con
    14 Int
    12 Wis
    21 Cha

    Feats: Craft Wondrous Items at level 6 and Contagious Paralysis at 12. Maybe Extend Spell and some other meta-magic. Take enough meta-magic and should probably take the rapid meta-magic feat. Or just have some rods of Extend and/or Empower Spell.

    Take Sorcerer for 11 levels to qualify for Lich. After becoming one and gaining your 12th level you qualify to take the feat. Pump CHA as much as you can as it helps your spell casting and the DC for your paralyzing touch.

    Spells don't matter too much, but we want Telekinesis for sure. A cheap lower level summoning spell works well to so we can summon a group of small defenses-less monsters to paralyze and chuck around. Also on that note, if a target is paralyzed shouldn't it take a penalty on opposing Bull Rush attempts? Could make a line of parallelized creatures we just push into each-other here.

    After level 12, just take another 4-7 levels of Sorcerer depending on whether or not LA-buyoff is on the table. Though to be honest this would probably make a much better villain than a PC.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Surprised no on has mentioned this, as I thought it was fairly obvious. Could make a Lich Sorcerer that simply pick up this feat and abuses telekinesis with it. Simple Build:

    Spoiler
    Show
    LE Undead (Human) Sorcerer
    Base Stats
    10 Str
    15 Dex
    - Con
    14 Int
    12 Wis
    21 Cha

    Feats: Craft Wondrous Items at level 6 and Contagious Paralysis at 12. Maybe Extend Spell and some other meta-magic. Take enough meta-magic and should probably take the rapid meta-magic feat. Or just have some rods of Extend and/or Empower Spell.

    Take Sorcerer for 11 levels to qualify for Lich. After becoming one and gaining your 12th level you qualify to take the feat. Pump CHA as much as you can as it helps your spell casting and the DC for your paralyzing touch.

    Spells don't matter too much, but we want Telekinesis for sure. A cheap lower level summoning spell works well to so we can summon a group of small defenses-less monsters to paralyze and chuck around. Also on that note, if a target is paralyzed shouldn't it take a penalty on opposing Bull Rush attempts? Could make a line of parallelized creatures we just push into each-other here.

    After level 12, just take another 4-7 levels of Sorcerer depending on whether or not LA-buyoff is on the table. Though to be honest this would probably make a much better villain than a PC.
    Nice. Make that a silverbrow human and take silver dragon dragon lineage too as a type of nova...plus, you'll want that disguise skill for your lichly purposes.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    How about this:

    Summon enough swarms to blanket the battlefield. The bigger the swarm the better. Command line of the swarms to willingly fail a save against your paralysis. The swarm now forces a save against all the other swarms, which you command then to fail, and against everything else in the battlefield.

    This strategy needs a little love to make it more elegant, but I think it has potential.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Step 1) Cast Planar Binding a Bunch to get a bunch of Demodand allies.
    2) Paralyze them all with your paralysis.
    3) Paralyze yourself, also polymorph yourself into a Demodand and/or wear a Ring of Freedom of Movement and/or cast/persist FoM.
    4) Run around doing other stuff, casting spells, whatever. Have your Demodands punch people.

    Result: Anyone who attacks you or your Demodands in a way that touches you (natural attacks mostly) also has to make a save against Paralysis. Also all of your many Demodands get a free save vs paralysis with all their natural attacks.

    Basically, FoM allows you to move freely, but doesn't make you not Paralyzed. So you can still rock out, but also anything that touches you might get paralyzed, and you can get all your demodands a free save or lose on every attack, since they are all constantly FoM.

    Presumably this is best on fullcaster/lich? Maybe there is a better way to get a paralyzing touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nashira View Post
    How about this:

    Summon enough swarms to blanket the battlefield. The bigger the swarm the better. Command line of the swarms to willingly fail a save against your paralysis. The swarm now forces a save against all the other swarms, which you command then to fail, and against everything else in the battlefield.

    This strategy needs a little love to make it more elegant, but I think it has potential.
    Might not be allowed, since touch attacks might fall under "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures."
    Last edited by Beheld; 2016-01-23 at 06:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Liches' Paralyzing Touch does not appear to qualify them to take Contagious Paralysis by RAW.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Might the swarm idea work with an area-based paralysis attack?

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Liches' Paralyzing Touch does not appear to qualify them to take Contagious Paralysis by RAW.
    They very much appear to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Special Abilities
    Paralysis
    Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below.)

    A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components. Paralysis works on the body, and a character can usually resist it with a Fortitude saving throw (the DC is given in the creature’s description). Unlike hold person and similar effects, a paralysis effect does not allow a new save each round.

    A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
    Any monster with a supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze victims has "Paralysis" Presumably if your "Paralyzing Touch" was (Ex) you would not qualify, but it seems that any supernatural or SLA ability to paralzye counts.

    So apparently, my new answer is forget Lich, just be an Archmage and get a Ghoul Touch SLA. (Or you know, a better SLA that has a much longer duration).
    Last edited by Beheld; 2016-01-23 at 09:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Fling Ally/Fling Enemy allow you to throw a creature, while Lightning Throw allows you to throw that creature in a 30 foot line and then return that thrown creature to your hand at the end of the throw. The applications of this should be both obvious and hilarious.

    EDIT: Comet Throw, Ballista Throw, Mighty Throw, Soaring Throw, Devastating Throw and Tornado Throw are all hilarious for this too.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-01-23 at 10:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Fling Ally/Fling Enemy allow you to throw a creature, while Lightning Throw allows you to throw that creature in a 30 foot line and then return that thrown creature to your hand at the end of the throw. The applications of this should be both obvious and hilarious.

    EDIT: Comet Throw, Ballista Throw, Mighty Throw, Soaring Throw, Devastating Throw and Tornado Throw are all hilarious for this too.
    Penetrating shot from PHB2 might be fun with this if you have gauntlets that somehow count as projectile weapons...:)

    or you can shrink someone to a small enough size that you can use them in a sling somehow...

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    I've got it.

    Drunken Master to get the same reach as the size of your weapon, plus spool of endless rope, great cleave, and great throw. Great throw allows you to put a creature you drop - typically by reducing it below 0 hit points, but today by tripping it - you get a new, free action against it. Paralyse a creature, so that you always pass your trip attacks against it, and then trip it, putting it on top of another creature you want to paralyse. You've just tripped the creature, so it's dropped, so you can trip it again, and dump it on another creature you want to paralyse.

    If you're not sure that great cleave works, you can place the creature 10 feet in the air, and make an attack of opportunity with epic combat reflexes as it comes down instead.

    Another fun trick is that creatures 2 or more sizes below you are light weapons, so they work with Storm of Throws.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Liches' Paralyzing Touch does not appear to qualify them to take Contagious Paralysis by RAW.
    Umm:

    Paralyzing Touch (Su)

    Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

    The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Spot check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive..
    The Feat it's self:

    Your paralyzing attack is contagious.
    Prerequisite
    You must have "Paralysis as an extraordinary or supernatural ability"
    Benefit
    Any creature paralyzed by your special attack can confer paralysis to other creatures that touch it. Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected as if you had delivered a paralyzing attack upon it (using the same save DC to resist, if allowed). If a creature successfully saves against your contagious paralysis attack, it can't be affected by your attack for 24 hours.
    So the Feat's pre-req is
    A) An Extraordinary or Supernatural Ability. Su for Lich's Paralyzing Touch means it is supernatural
    B) You must actually inflict the "Paralyzed" Status effect with said ability. I don't think it matters if the attack is touch, or had infinite duration.

    So not sure how by RAW a Supernatural ability that let's you permanently paralyze someone with a touch attack doesn't qualify for the feat.
    Last edited by Zancloufer; 2016-01-23 at 11:03 PM.

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