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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    So this might seem a bit strange, but I am looking for means to optimize the process of growing plants for any and all purposes.

    Plant Growth seems like a good basis, although from my understanding, you can't keep stacking it.

    Wood Shape also seems like it might be useful. If I am reading things right, any wood-based plant (e.g. tree) that has been affected by the overgrowth effect of Plant Growth could then be re-shaped to just be bigger afterwards (i.e. sprout it out, pull it in).

    So yeah, what else is there that could help?
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Planar Bubble to a Fast-Time Plane, perhaps?

    What do you need this for?

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Do note that the overgrowth function of Plant Growth does not mature the plant.
    Dark Sun has a few spells you might want to look into.
    • Nurturing Seeds: make 10 seeds or cuttings able to withstand all non-animal and non-magical threats and makes a small area habitable for other plants.
    • Clear Water: double the effectiveness of water.
    • Cooling Canopy: Half required water intake for all who stay under the 30ft radius for 6+ hours.
    • Plant Renewal: Bring a plant back from near destruction
    • Rejuvenate: makes a land temporarily fertile, grass covers the area, and supplies a second source for enrichment as plant growth

    There are also the magical side effects from some Dragon Magazine, one of them is tangentially 160sq ft of grass growth which is very versatile considering grains are grass, plus bamboo, and rice.
    Last edited by Ruethgar; 2016-01-26 at 12:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Planar Bubble to a Fast-Time Plane, perhaps?
    I personally don't favor Fast-Time trait abuse, but the idea of using planar traits in general does appeal. I think Precipitate Breach (combined with something to ensure a worthwhile connection) is preferrable for this purpose though, as it lasts days rather than minutes. Just the question what some good planar traits would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    What do you need this for?
    It's mainly optimizer's curiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar
    Do note that the overgrowth function of Plant Growth does not mature the plant.
    Dark Sun has a few spells you might want to look into.
    Nurturing Seeds: make 10 seeds or cuttings able to withstand all non-animal and non-magical threats and makes a small area habitable for other plants.
    Clear Water: double the effectiveness of water.
    Cooling Canopy: Half required water intake for all who stay under the 30ft radius for 6+ hours.
    Plant Renewal: Bring a plant back from near destruction
    Rejuvenate: makes a land temporarily fertile, grass covers the area, and supplies a second source for enrichment as plant growth

    There are also the magical side effects from some Dragon Magazine, one of them is tangentially 160sq ft of grass growth which is very versatile considering grains are grass, plus bamboo, and rice.
    Interesting stuff. By "does not mature", do you mean that the plant -while getting bigger- does not sprout flowers or whatever it equivalent is?

    My familiarity with Dark Sun is essentially 0. Is that setting even 1st party?

    I shall have a look at the magical side effects, thank you

    EDIT: Can't seem to find the side-effects, only managed to get the potion ones from dragondex. Help?
    Last edited by Jowgen; 2016-01-26 at 01:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Control Weather and Move Earth seem to have some very obviously helpful uses.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Would the positive energy planar trait be helpful? I know the fluff mentions vibrant plant life.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Summoning Ragnorra would probably increase plant growth. Just don't complain when your crops start to grow arms and try to strangle you when you come close.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Dark Sun is officially licensed, but not WotC published, Just like Ravenloft, and Kalimdor.

    The magical side effects are listed, and described as potion side effects in their descriptive texts, however the paragraphs for them state that they can be applied to any magical effect, be it spell or item, and that the player can alter the randomly rolled side effects to fit the theme of the spell.

    Sorry for the errors in the post, Siri isn't the best for this. What I mean by the plant growth overgrowth not maturing plants, is that it just makes them grow bigger, like if you cast giant growth on a baby, it's still a baby, just a big baby.
    Last edited by Ruethgar; 2016-01-26 at 10:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Control Weather and Move Earth seem to have some very obviously helpful uses.
    Move Earth seems easy to replicate mundanely, but I can see Control Weather helping. Actually, going from that, I think Speak with Plants might be useful, provided plants can answer questions about their favored weather/climate for growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerefel
    Would the positive energy planar trait be helpful? I know the fluff mentions vibrant plant life.
    Don't think so, lots of planar descriptions talk about how the trees look (e.g. those Gem trees on... Bytopia?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar
    Dark Sun is officially licensed, but not WotC published, Just like Ravenloft, and Kalimdor.

    The magical side effects are listed, and described as potion side effects in their descriptive texts, however the paragraphs for them state that they can be applied to any magical effect, be it spell or item, and that the player can alter the randomly rolled side effects to fit the theme of the spell.
    Dark Sun. Noted.

    I've had another look at the side-effects, and while the adaptation part does fit, I did not see any particular side-effect among the 60 listed that would be useful for horti/agricultural purposes.

    I thought that's what you meant, and I believe I agree. I do think it might be possible to induce maturing otherwise (e.g. Speak with Plant to deterine right soil/weather conditions, Control Weather and such to make it happen).
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    A maxed Profession: Farmer or something like that would help, although the skill only measures output in its worth in gold. Still, if one untrained guy with as much farm as one person can handle only makes 1sp per day, and someone with the skill can get 1/2 their skill check in gold every week, then monetarily that works out to quite the multiplier (slightly depends on if you're using a regular week or a Faerunian tenday, I guess).

    Tree-style feather tokens can pop out one mature oak tree each, so you might try to make custom items for other plants, and/or maximize how many of them you can get through various shenanigans.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    I've had another look at the side-effects, and while the adaptation part does fit, I did not see any particular side-effect among the 60 listed that would be useful for horti/agricultural purposes.

    I thought that's what you meant, and I believe I agree. I do think it might be possible to induce maturing otherwise (e.g. Speak with Plant to deterine right soil/weather conditions, Control Weather and such to make it happen).
    The side effect in question is the Rod of Wonder, it has both Rain and Grass Growth. I realize this is a bit of a stretch, a Dragon Magazine article, and hand picking what is listed as a doubly random effect. But I thought it should be mentioned for completeness' sake as it can be fairly potent depending on grass choice leniency.

    Bestow Curse to age the plants might work, may have to be animated first, but that is a bit of a round-about way to do things.

    It should also be noted that the item creation effect of Prestidigitation is not among the effects that has a limited duration and that the entire matter of a seed so created will dissipate fairly quickly as it grows making its frailty less of an issue and even less so with Nurturing Seeds.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Take Leadership - have your followers be Gardeners / Farmers.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Probably not quite what you're looking for, but tree token: 400 gp for an instantaneous, 60' tall, 5' diameter oak tree.

    I don't think anything grows a plant faster than that.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Stegyre View Post
    Probably not quite what you're looking for, but tree token: 400 gp for an instantaneous, 60' tall, 5' diameter oak tree.

    I don't think anything grows a plant faster than that.
    It takes essentially a day to grow with item creation rules unless the DM is going to say "Sure, the entirety of this cities available wealth is made up of trees." And while it might be the fastest for giant oaks, you could be spending your day on other things... unless you want to be a Warforged, then just take an 8hr morning of farming, 8hr evening of tree making, 8hr night of spell and other horticultural and agricultural boons.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk
    A maxed Profession: Farmer or something like that would help,
    Quote Originally Posted by nedz
    Take Leadership - have your followers be Gardeners / Farmers.
    That stuff ain't "magic" horti/agriculture

    The side effect in question is the Rod of Wonder,
    Ahh, I see. Makes sense, I see what you were going for.

    Bestow Curse to age the plants
    While I can conceive the notion of a DM allowing curse-aging for Dragon-optimization, I can not see anyone allowing curses aging plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk
    Tree-style Token
    I don't think this works, actually. The tokens work of Major Creation, which works like minor creation, which specifically can only create non-living objects. Unless a DM arbitrarily decides that the Oak Tree is a real live one, the created tree would essentially be a dead fake.

    It should also be noted that the item creation effect of Prestidigitation is not among the effects that has a limited duration and that the entire matter of a seed so created will dissipate fairly quickly as it grows making its frailty less of an issue and even less so with Nurturing Seeds.
    Interesting. Very interesting...
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    This link might have a couple of items that might interest you.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Talk a Dwarven Chanter into doing the Timing Chant for your peasant farmers ... +20 untyped bonus to Profession: Farmer to everyone that join the chant.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Talk a Dwarven Chanter into doing the Timing Chant for your peasant farmers ... +20 untyped bonus to Profession: Farmer to everyone that join the chant.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    That stuff ain't "magic" horti/agriculture
    Maybe... use magic to boost their skills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    I don't think this works, actually. The tokens work of Major Creation, which works like minor creation, which specifically can only create non-living objects. Unless a DM arbitrarily decides that the Oak Tree is a real live one, the created tree would essentially be a dead fake.
    Heh, that's a new one! I think having a tree 'spring into being' covers it enough that it would have to specify 'dead' if that's what it meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    While I can conceive the notion of a DM allowing curse-aging for Dragon-optimization, I can not see anyone allowing curses aging plants
    Ah, but plant creatures? You could even curse their seeds!

    Oh, how about a captive (details... unimportant?) time dragon, maybe lashed to a cart so you can bring it around and aim its breath weapon at your longer lived plants to age them up?

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Self resetting trap of create water seems like a no brainer. Set it at the top of a dripping array (a horizontal pipe with holes drilled in it) for irrigation.

    Those feather tokens might be helpful to grow certain shady area preferring plants. Even if they are just facsimile trees...Plus, you can chop them down for lumber.

    I suppose exemplar (CA) can use profession: gardener as a diplomacy check...

    Although 3.0, Verdant lord gets infusions at first level, and there are a myriad of rules about gardening infusion ingredients. You might be able to garden up infusions that make better gardens...p.32 of Master's of the wild. Infusions are basically scrolls that you eat. So you can make a berry pie that allows you to control weather!

    At 8th level you can animate a tree once a day. Congratulations, I hope you have [creature type] trainer because you can train these trees to do the grunt work of farming so long as they remain within 180 feet of the caster. The way that the ability is worded is such that you can have any number of animated trees that can be fit within 180 feet of yourself, animating them once a day over the course of a few days.

    Also, remember that command plants and control plants swapped names in the transition between 3.0 and 3.5, and so you can get into this class by level 8.

    Also, Making the infusions yourself increases the caster level of the infusion by 1. It appears to actually works better on an artificer than a druid though. Mostly because of the high Int score granting the necessary skill points and the UMD ranks to use the infusion. Although you're gonna have to blow a feat or a class level to get survival ranks. I suggest human paragon 1/artificer 19. You literally make free scrolls that you eat. Your class levels give you the XP pool.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-28 at 03:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    That link redirects to an article on vermin companions.
    somehow managed to copy the wrong link ... Here it is.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    I built an Exemplar intended to do something like this for Junkyard Wars here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...9&postcount=66

    Worked out pretty well. Have him pick up a Druid cohort and go nuts.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    There are lots of rare and magical plants you may want to look into growing. Often with long maturity times. An accelerated time plane may help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Summoning Ragnorra would probably increase plant growth. Just don't complain when your crops start to grow arms and try to strangle you when you come close.
    I once had a character who was deathly afraid of some magical produce the DM put in the campaign. Eventually he picked up the custom spell protection from weaponized horticulture. If you make magic horticulture big enough then researching such a spell may become a bit more popular.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    .At 8th level you can animate a tree once a day. Congratulations, I hope you have [creature type] trainer because you can train these trees to do the grunt work of farming so long as they remain within 180 feet of the caster. The way that the ability is worded is such that you can have any number of animated trees that can be fit within 180 feet of yourself, animating them once a day over the course of a few days.

    Also, remember that command plants and control plants swapped names in the transition between 3.0 and 3.5, and so you can get into this class by level 8.
    AFB right now, but see about using Acorns of Far travel from the animated trees to extend the area they can cover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    AFB right now, but see about using Acorns of Far travel from the animated trees to extend the area they can cover.
    Beautiful. You can make them by casting spells from infusions to keep the cost down.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Found something of interest. A Basket of Delights "fills with all manner of ripe, delicious-looking fruit, sufficient to feed three humans for one day". Fruits, by definition, contain seeds, and since the fruit is described as ripe, the seeds must be viable.

    So, yeah, one of these should be able to function as a reliable supply of seeds for any plant that can be argued to bear fruit.
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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Maybe a mass version of the Sandstorm spell hydrate? In my head that spell brings can't over water plants, but it might only work if the plant is already wilting (i.e. taken dehydration damage.) Admittedly this idea is pretty silly and probably not that useful when you could just create rain and hit way more plants, but I really like this spell for some reason. My favorite use is to cure hangovers!

    Also, I happen to be a horticulturalist so if anyone one has questions on how plants grow in real life feel free to ask.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Warforged titan (from ECS is a 12 HD Huge Construct. With an elite array, you can get an intelligence as high as 7. If you then change it's feats from HD to Ironwood Body (HD 1), and Apprentice (woodsman) (HD 3), and open mind (HD 6 & 9) you can qualify for landforged walker. At level 3: You get Body of Nature, wherein you can coax beneficial herbs to grow on your HUGE body.

    Spoiler: Body of Nature Class Ability
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    Level 1: Upon taking your first level in this prestige class, you sprout a second skin composed of tiny plants native to your chosen terrain. For instance, a desert landforged walker might appear covered with tiny cacti, while an underground landforged walker might grow a skin of moss and fungi. This living skin is a mystical representation of your bond with the earth, and it requires neither water nor sunlight. Damaged or harvested areas regenerate almost instantly.

    3rd level: Three times per day, you can harvest these herbs as a move action. Once harvested, they remain potent for 1 hour. When consumed by a living creature (a standard action), the herbs heal damage equal to your class level your Wisdom bonus. These herbs work equally well on all living creatures, including living constructs, but have no effect on other creatures.


    You get tiny localized plants that instantly grow back when removed. You can feed an entire army unlimited alfalfa sprouts! You'll have the healthiest army in the world.

    So, you basically turn the most intelligent warforged titan ever forged into a giant mobile flower bed. Depending on your campaign needs, you can dip those herbs in quintessence to cure them permanently (they won't age beyond that hour) and you can save them as static healing potions that would work on constructs. Throw a wisdom boosting item on the warforged to get crazy awesome healing options (up to +20 - +30 per herb). After finding a warforged titan, all you need is a psion with expanded knowledge (for quintessence building) and them you psychically reformat him to be your garden.

    Same idea can work with a warforged scorpion (SoX p.75) but it is only a large construct, but your garden wont be as big. It will, however, be closer to the ground, which is more friendly to old people. Depending on your staff, this might be a necessity.

    There is Fluff support for the steel kraken (5N p.93) to be considered warforged, if you wanted your flower bed to be entirely aquatic. You could grow kelp or edible seaweeds from it's underbelly.

    The Duststuffed Template from the Explorer's handbook allows you to apply the living construct type to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid. I'm sure that there's a way to muck around with that to make the perfect flower pot.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagernaut View Post
    Also, I happen to be a horticulturalist so if anyone one has questions on how plants grow in real life feel free to ask.
    What exactly do plants need and could they be provided for by spells?

    Nurturing Seeds seals the deal so they don't die except by magic and animal intervention. But without nutrition, I assume they would not grow and certainly not flower(example being various spicy peppers requiring extra calcium).

    Create Water/Hydrate of course.

    Chicken Infested can help with fertilizer. But what else would you need?

    Daylight makes light as bright as daylight, one can assume that is in all spectrums else if wouldn't be as bright. This makes a fine 24hr sun if we use RL growth. However I am AFB and do not know if the sun is explicitly responsible for plant growth because of it being a hole to the positive energy plane, or if it is unspecified leaving it to the default "as real life" ruling.

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    Default Re: Magic Horti-/Agri-culture Optimization

    This just came up in another thread: the 'Fruit Blossom Spike', which turns out to be from the Arms and Equipment Guide. Hammer it into a fruit tree, and within one round the tree perks up, grows an 'enormous amount' of fruit, drops the fruit, and the tree dies. The fruit lasts for 3 days but has magic properties, then turns to mush. Can't be used on plant creatures.

    Seems like a decent way to harvest fruit you're going to use quickly, as well as to gather seeds.

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