When does a magic item become a construct?

[Fixer]

Ok, I was just going over the saves for magic items and something struck me as odd.

Magic items have, essentially, all saving throws favored. (2 + ½ caster level)
Constructs (which, one would have to assume are all magic items in some fashion) have all saving throws as non-favored. (⅓ HD)

Has Wizards ever given any justification for this odd discrepancy?

(EDITTING OUT BAD EXAMPLE)

[Piccamo]

Magic items are still not constructs.

[Fixer]

Magic items are still not constructs.

Ok, my original subject is moot as you cannot animate a magic item, but that still doesn't explain the underlying discrepancy.

Why is it that when an object is enchanted as an item is gets one kind of saving throw but, when the object is enchanted as a construct it gets a lower saving throw?

An Apparatus of the Crab has saves of +11 across the board. If it is an intelligent item, it gets a bonus to will saves based on its Wisdom score. It possesses 200hp, AC 20, and a move of 20ft. It has its own attack bonus (+12) and damage.

Compare it to an iron golem. +6 to saves, 129hp, AC 30, move of 20ft. Attack bonus of +23.

Other than the fact one has been identified as a magic item, and the other as a construct, what's the difference?

[Keld Denar]

Noted...from now on, I will be adding 2 to all of my constructs saving throws. To whome should I send my players when they protest?

[Lemur]

There are numerous differences. One has hit dice, one has a fixed amount of hitpoints. A magic item doesn't have a base attack bonus. Also, golems (but not animated objects) use DR to reduce damage, objects (and animated objects) use hardness. Golems are also infused with an elemental spirit, which gives them their false life, something that magic items don't have.

In any case, you're probably thinking about it too much. It's magic, it doesn't need to make sense.

[Fixer]

There are numerous differences. One has hit dice, one has a fixed amount of hitpoints. A magic item doesn't have a base attack bonus. Also, golems (but not animated objects) use DR to reduce damage, objects (and animated objects) use hardness. Golems are also infused with an elemental spirit, which gives them their false life, something that magic items don't have.

In any case, you're probably thinking about it too much. It's magic, it doesn't need to make sense.

In my example of the intelligent Apparatus of the Crab, I point out that all but two of your differences are not present. The ONLY things that seems to seperate them is Hit Dice and DR. Are those two things that great of a difference?
(I am not including the example of infusion with elemental spirit. That is grey area as it is not explained where intelligent magic items get their intelligence from and it could be the same source.)

I am thinking just homerule the favored saving throws on constructs to all instead of none. Most constructs (well, golems) do not make saving throws anyway, they have spell immunities for that.

Is there a better way to adjust for the disparity?

[Jasdoif]

In general, a construct is not rendered powerless inside an antimagic field, and is not suppressed by dispel magic or wiped out by disjunction. A magic item, meanwhile, is.

Think of it as magic items having all their...magic stuff...floating on the surface, giving them really dang good saves but leaving them vulnerable to such effects. A construct, meanwhile, has its...magic stuff...so ingrained into its material that such effects don't bother it, but it has to acquire its saves and such in a more normal fashion.

[Fixer]

Ok, I have adjusted the title on the thread. This situation is just too odd to not discuss.

At what point does a magic item become a construct?

Oh, and looking up Intelligent items:

"Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. "

Does this mean that once a magic item becomes intelligent it loses its better saving throws and becomes more useful in an anti-magic field (as it is now a construct)? Are intelligent magic items immune to Mage's Disjunction? What about intelligent artifacts?

[Indon]

Ok, I have adjusted the title on the thread. This situation is just too odd to not discuss.

At what point does a magic item become a construct?

When it gets Construct Hit Dice, I imagine.

Something with one Construct HD defines it as a monster with Construct traits.

An intelligent, mobile magical item without any Hit Dice is a piece of equipment, not a monster.

[Lemur]

Hit Dice is the main point, and there's nothing that can get around it. A monster's hit dice and the caster level of a magic item are two very different things.

Consider a stone golem. A basic stone golem is a CR 11, 14 HD creature. It's base save is +4. A caster level 11 magic item has a base save of +7. Now, what happens if you compare caster level and hit dice: a caster level 14 magic item has a base save of +9.

Now, look at a fully advanced stone golem. He's CR 16, and has 42 HD. A caster level 16 item has base saves of +10. The Golem has saves of +14. A caster level 42 magic item isn't just epic, it's very epic. There's no parallel between caster level and construct hit dice.

As another example of the difference between magic items and constructs, you can't dispel magic on a golem to make it stop working.

Also, you're logic of "most of the time, golems can avoid making saving throws, so there's nothing wrong with giving them really good saves" is pretty flawed. Tack on "so even the things they aren't outright immune to are hardly a threat as well" to the end of that phrase and you should see why.

[Fixer]

Ok, since a couple of you cross-posted with my edit, what about the fact that in the SRD it says, "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

[Indon]

Ok, since a couple of you cross-posted with my edit, what about the fact that in the SRD it says, "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

It means they have construct traits that are independent of Hit Dice, such as immunity to the same things constructs are immune to.

As magic items have no HD, if you treated them as a construct for _everything_, they'd have _no_ saves or hit points. You could give an intelligent magic item HD, though, I imagine.

[Jasdoif]

Ok, since a couple of you cross-posted with my edit, what about the fact that in the SRD it says, "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

The FAQ talks about this a bit.

Would Mordenkainen’s disjunction affect an intelligent magic item?

Mordenkainen’s disjunction states that it affects all “magic items” within the radius of the spell. Even though intelligent items are considered to be creatures (specifically constructs, according to page 268 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide), they are also still “magic items” and thus can be affected by Mordenkainen’s disjunction.

The Sage can already hear the next question: What’s the difference between a golem (creature; immune to Mordenkainen’s disjunction) and an intelligent magic item (creature; not immune to Mordenkainen’s disjunction)?

Unfortunately, this is just one of those places where two completely separate areas of the rules have grown together in an unusual manner. Historically, golems and intelligent magic items haven’t shared much (if anything) in common. But as the rules for golems have made them more like magic items (in that they’re crafted in a similar manner) and the rules for intelligent magic items have made them more like golems (in that they’re considered creatures with the construct type), weird situations like this occur. Two adjacent branches, but growing from slightly different trees, and therefore interacting slightly differently in occasional corner cases of the rules.

Here’s the important distinction: Golems are not magic items, and Mordenkainen’s disjunction affects only “magical effects and magic items.” Intelligent magic items are, as one would expect from their name, magic items (even though they’re also creatures), so the spell affects them.

If Mordenkainen’s disjunction stated that it affected only objects, the answer might be different (since an intelligent magic item is a creature, not an object). But it doesn’t, so it’s not.

[Fixer]

That answers a lot, but it does leave me a question as to which might be better: Golems or Intelligent, animated magic items?

[bosssmiley]

Noted...from now on, I will be adding 2 to all of my constructs saving throws. To whome should I send my players when they protest?

Great Cthulhu; problem solved.

I'd say a magic item becomes a construct when you need the Craft Construct feat (MM, pg30x) to create it. Until that point, it's probably only an animated object.

[Fixer]

{table] |Apparatus of the Crab|Iron Golem
Hit Dice|N/A|18
Hit Points|200|129
Armor Class|20|30
Attacks|+12 claws (2 @ 2d8 damage each)|+23 slams (2 @ 2d10 + 11 each)
Damage Reduction|Hardness 15/-|DR 15/adamantine
Saves|+11|+6
Stats|S10 D10 C- I19 W10 Ch19|S33 D9 C- I- W11 Ch1
Other|Speech, Telepathy, 4 Lesser Powers, 3 Greater Powers, Speaks 4 languages, Read Magic, 120ft Darkvision, 120ft Blindsense, Hearing, Construct Traits, Ego: 21|Breath Weapon, Construct Traits, Immunity to Magic, Low-Light Vision
Cost|105000|150000gp[/table]

The golem wins versus spellcasters and is harder to hit for damage. The crab has more potential due to its intelligence and versatility.

Kind of like a mage vs. a fighter.

[Yuki Akuma]

A magic item becomes a Construct as soon as it gains a Charisma and Wisdom score (these are the only scores a creature needs to have to be defined as a 'creature'). But it's still a magic item, as was said previously.

Also, I think an intelligent Apparatus should have Strength and Dexterity scores, although gods know what they would be.

10s, most likely.

[Fixer]

Added in the 10s. Thanks.

I hope the construct/magic item oddity is cleared up in 4.0. I do not see this clearing up decisively before that.

I used to really like constructs. Now I am thinking making intelligent magic items makes more sense.

[Jasdoif]

I used to really like constructs. Now I am thinking making intelligent magic items makes more sense.

You might be annoyed if a targeted dispel magic immobilizes your sentry, though. A construct doesn't have this problem.

That's really what it comes down to. Dispelling a magic item suppresses its magical properties for 1d4 rounds and removes any buffs it may have, while dispelling a construct only removes its buffs. Constructs are good for standalone uses, magic items work better as equipment (since you're more likely to be a target then your gear, and attacks directed at your gear aren't directly harming you).

[RandomNPC]

my two coppers.

a dancing weapon (or shield) can stay dancing for 5 rounds and then needs to be held onto for a moment and told what to do again. between the start of the 1st round and end of the 5th it does as instructed.

a golem (dancing or otherwise) will do as commanded untill it becomes impossible to do so, or untill ordered to stop.

it's all about the duration of how long they can act themselves so far however...

if i remember the rules on inteligent items activating abilities...
an inteligent dancing weapon may (DMs call) continuosly activate its dancing ability and go on adventures all its own. at that point i would stat it out and make it a character, cause honnestly who doesn't want to play a trash talking pole arm.

[Matthew]

I kinda do... now

[TheOOB]

If it helps, think of magic item as a subtype that can exist on a construct. A magic item with a Wis and a Cha score is a construct, but it's a magic item as well, just as an elf is a humanoid, but also an elf as well.

Basically, anything made with a feat other then craft construct would be considered a magic item.