A Question on Spells

[CrazedGoblin]

in the campaign i am running i was wondering if "Alter Self" and similar spells should be banned from being used by the PCs as they seem a little over powered, any thoughts on this?

[dauphinous]

What exactly do you find offensive about Alter Self? It is a low-grade polymorph that affects only the caster and only changes their shape. You can get a boost to your movement capabilities, and maybe a bonus to some skills, like Hide, maybe natural armor, but you don't get much else. It seems pretty much in line with 2nd level spells to me.

What I'm asking is, how, in your opinion, is it greatly better than Continual Flame (which makes a permanent torch with no xp spent), or Blindness/deafness (which permanently blinds or deafens a creature), or Invisibility?

[Spiryt]

For what I heard Alter Self is often banned. I usualy bann Polymorph but Alter Self can be broken too.

[bosssmiley]

You might want to look at any of the sundry fixes WOTC has offered to the Polymorph sub-school. They are probably posted on the WOTC website, then critiqued on the boards.

Other than that all I can suggest is: apply common sense to player demands for great justice. Don't let them try to get away with stuff you all know is against the spirit of the spell description.

[CrazedGoblin]

What exactly do you find offensive about Alter Self? It is a low-grade polymorph that affects only the caster and only changes their shape. You can get a boost to your movement capabilities, and maybe a bonus to some skills, like Hide, maybe natural armor, but you don't get much else. It seems pretty much in line with 2nd level spells to me.

What I'm asking is, how, in your opinion, is it greatly better than Continual Flame (which makes a permanent torch with no xp spent), or Blindness/deafness (which permanently blinds or deafens a creature), or Invisibility?

it seems to allow the wizard/sorcerer to alter themself to much for a level 2 spell

[Douglas]

Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are all extremely overpowered. WotC has tried to fix them multiple times, but some time ago they officially gave up and pretty much announced that these spells were to be "used at your own risk". ISTR that they are all banned in Living Greyhawk, with the possible exception of Alter Self.

The core problem with all four of these spells is that they essentially let you look through the entire Monster Manual, plus whatever other sources of creatures your DM is using, and pick any one of hundreds of options to change into, few or none of which were designed with the Polymorph line of spells in mind. Since WotC's declaration of imbalance, they have released rules for a Polymorph subschool, along with quite a number of new spells to go in it. Every single one of these new spells features the crucial difference of having a very limited list of things it can change you into.

[Matthew]

Yup, it's usually case by case with this Spell.

Personally, I apply pretty much all the caveats of Change/Disguise Self to this Spell when using it [i.e. you can make cosmetic changes and slight physical alterations that will result in apparent Race change, but same size category and only the most minimal of benefits]. No object melding, only physical changes.

[Kurald Galain]

Does anyone have a link to WOTC's attempted Alter Self fixes?

[Morty]

Well, if you have too much time on your hands, you can create some sort of penalties for abusing shapechange- like character's body reacting badly to sudden changes. Penalties would be bigger when creature you change into looks very different than you. For example, when human transforms into ooze .

[Saph]

in the campaign i am running i was wondering if "Alter Self" and similar spells should be banned from being used by the PCs as they seem a little over powered, any thoughts on this?

Alter Self is an extremely powerful spell, too powerful for level 2. It allows you to fly, climb, get a high natural armour bonus, or several skill bonuses. Its strength is its flexibility - you can pick any form you like, depending on what you need at the time.

That said, on its own Alter Self isn't game-breaking. It becomes game-breaking when you combine it with something that makes your character count as a non-humanoid, allowing you to turn into one of those forms. E.g., combine Alter Self with the Otherworldly feat, which makes you an outsider, and turn into a Dwarf Ancestor for a +18 bonus to Natural Armour.

Every other spell from the Polymorph line is just game-breaking, full stop, and pretty much all sane DMs ban or heavily restrict them. Turning into a Wyvern at level 7 is ridiculous, and that's not even the most powerful form out there.

- Saph

[Inyssius Tor]

Ah, you've got to love the Rukanyr.

Seven HD, full attack: Slam attack +9 and 6 claw attacks +7 and 3 bite attacks +5.
The bite attacks are poisoned, the slam attack stuns, any weapon that hits it is essentially destroyed and disarmed, it has fast healing 5, and it can emit a crazy sonic roar every 1d4 rounds.

[sleeping fishy]

Ah, you've got to love the Rukanyr.

Seven HD, full attack: Slam attack +9 and 6 claw attacks +7 and 3 bite attacks +5.
The bite attacks are poisoned, the slam attack stuns, any weapon that hits it is essentially destroyed and disarmed, it has fast healing 5, and it can emit a crazy sonic roar every 1d4 rounds.

omg, wtf!! thats ridiculous... whats the cr on that thing, what book is it from?? what creature type?

polymorph is totally broke...

[Inyssius Tor]

CR 9, Aberration, Fiend Folio.

Oh, and it's large.

EDIT: Actually, if you Polymorph into it, it doesn't get Reflexive Sunder or Fast Healing 5. Oh noes.

[Jasdoif]

See Fax's pauper of smack build for more rukanyr fun.

[sleeping fishy]

CR 9... umm... whats its hp/saves??

fiend folio is 3.0 also isnt it...

[nagora]

in the campaign i am running i was wondering if "Alter Self" and similar spells should be banned from being used by the PCs as they seem a little over powered, any thoughts on this?

It should be modified to only allow the appearance of the desired creature/person. So wings don't work (unless your character had wings), scales etc are actually just your normal flesh. Natural attacks like claws are limited to the damage a dagger would do (it's not a real claw, it's really just a pointy finger). etc.

Basically, you would take on the appearance and it would be real in the sense of not being an illusion but fake in the sense of just being like a costume.

This basically makes it a weak form of 1st Edition's Polymorph Self (a 4th level spell). As written, I'd probably call Alter Self a 6th level spell.

What the hell anyone was thinking when they wrote the spell as it is in 3rdE I don't know; 1st edition had plenty of debates on polymorph self and Shape Change so it's not like they have any excuse for introducing such a powerful spell as 2nd Level.

[Inyssius Tor]

7d8+49, Fort +9, Ref +0.

Not anymore it isn't!

Nagora: Isn't that just Disguise Self?

[sleeping fishy]

hmm, not so bad with, with ref +0 grease would be very bad for it & if will save is also low then hitting it with will save spells would be easy... mostly just bad for meleers, like most melee monsters...

[Inyssius Tor]

... You are a wizard. Will saves are your thing.

[nagora]

7d8+49, Fort +9, Ref +0.

Not anymore it isn't!

Nagora: Isn't that just Disguise Self?

It's more powerful in what range of appearances it allows; so 2nd level would seem about right.

This is assuming that my frantic Googling is correct in saying that Disguise Self is a 1st level spell - we don't have it at all over here in 1st edition land, a land unsullied by Cooke, Tweet & Williams' brand of munchkin gaming, thank goodness.