Building a Credible Drizzt

[Droodle]

OK. So, we all know that whenever Wizards of the Coast publishes a build for a famous character, they tend to use an over-simplified, core only build. Let's get serious, though. Do you really think that Elminster, who meets the pre-reqs, off the top of my head, for the Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Abjurant Champion, and Eldritch Knight really would have taken 20 straight levels of Mage before branching off into the Arch-Mage PrC? I don't. But I digress. Here's my challenge. How do we build a Drizzt that Dual Wields, Rages, has the tracking feat, can calm animals, and was able to beat a Balor equipped with an artifact level magic item in single combat at level 17 (ECL 19) while equipped with only a weakly enchanted Mithril Chain Shirt, a +3 Frostbrand, and another Scimitar (which wasn't even masterwork)? Is a build that could pull this off even possible without home-brewing "Mary-Sue" into a PrC?

I have a few things I'd like to point out to guide us in the right direction. First of all, Drizzt had the tracking feat as part of his training as a drow warrior. Second of all, given the formality of his early training, I consider it highly likely that Drizzt was originally some sort of Martial Adept. Drizzt could also calm animals before he aquired his Ranger training from Montolio, and he also has never cast a spell. In my opinion, Drizzt is probably a martial adept who has taken a prestige class or 2 in order to gain his raging and his Ranger abilities. I actually doubt that Drizzt actually has any levels in either the Barbarian or Ranger base classes. Further, Drizzt may not have Rage at all. His "rages" (which actually make him harder to hit and seem to improve his mobility) might actually just be a Dervish dance, for all we know.

[Matthew]

Hah, hah. Drizzt is not really credible to begin with, but I am really interested in this process. I have seen a few builds over the years, but I'm loathe to see a Tome of Battle version and a retroactive 'that explains it'. Can we have two build processes, one including Tome of Battle and one ignoring it?

[Douglas]

If he has any barbarian levels, he's definitely using the whirling frenzy rage variant.

[Vaniel]

I don't know what you mean by "whenever Wizards of the Coast publishes a build for a famous character". They published books and the likes AFTER the setting was first published. The books are only fluff. If the build doesn't match the books, than it's the writers fault, not the builds fault.

Oh, and by the way, isn't Forgotten Realms 3.0? All your propositions from 3.5 didn't exist by the time they created the build, so don't blame Wizards.

And remember, they don't build famous characters from optimization, they build it from story, background, etc.

Wait, wait, wait... It's called a story, fun reading.

Though, having a 3.5 version of Drizzt (though I find the original good as is from the story if you transfer the classes to 3.5) could be interesting. I second Matthews proposition.

/Vaniel

[Droodle]

Hah, hah. Drizzt is not really credible to begin with, but I am really interested in this process. I have seen a few builds over the years, but I'm loathe to see a Tome of Battle version and a retroactive 'that explains it'. Can we have two build processes, one including Tome of Battle and one ignoring it?

Sure.....but, to be honest, I can't honestly see how a poorly equipped level 17 Dex-Based dual wielder would even be able to come close to beating a Balor wielding an Artifact of Immense power in single combat without using the Tome of Battle. To be even more honest, I doubt it'll be possible even with the Tome of Battle. When the day is done, I think we'll end up having to home-brew that "Mary-Sue" PrC in order to make a build that uses Drizzt's combat style, has access to the appropriate skills, and can actually beat a Balor while armed with crummy equipment.

If he has any barbarian levels, he's definitely using the whirling frenzy rage variant.

Agreed. To get even more irritating, though, Drizzt also has trouble controlling his rages......which means he probably has levels of Frenzied Berserker, too.

@Vaniel: I don't blame Wizards, either. I'm just pointing out that the builds they present for different characters aren't entirely accurate. Heck, back in 2.0 Drizzt was a Fighter18/Ranger 17 with Grand Mastery, the ability to rage, and a whole bunch of other illegal abilities. And lets not even talk about Danica and Cadderly from the Cleric quintet........

[Draz74]

Agreed. To get even more irritating, though, Drizzt also has trouble controlling his rages......which means he probably has levels of Frenzied Berserker, too.

Or, that could just be roleplay.

Let's see ... first, what book are you thinking of where he beat a Balor with an artifact? Because I don't remember Errtu ever actually getting his hands on Crenshinibon, though he's sure tried a lot of times ...

I think Drizzt was probably a Ranger long before he met Montolio -- he took levels in Ranger without even knowing that such an order existed, while he was still in his academy training (I think his TWF feat was a Ranger bonus feat). He probably just has a two- or three-level dip in it, though. (Ranger level 3 was the one where Montolio trained him.) Among other things, this would explain his ability to calm animals even before he met Montolio.

I'm in favor of the Dervish Dance = "hunter's rage" idea.

So ... Ranger 3 / Warblade 6 / Dervish 8 sound reasonable for ECL 19?

[Talya]

Drizzt in his persona as "The Hunter," is not in a rage. It's a state of mind, that can last for months on end, as long s necessary to survive. Barbarian levels are utterly pointless here.

The one, single PrC absolutely required to build a "credible drizzt" is Dervish. The dervish dance fits his fighting style, and he definitely finesses dual scimitars.

I'd say, after Hunter's Blades trilogy, Drizzt is probably near level 20. Probably Ranger 1, Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 4, Dervish 10.

As much as I love ToB:Bo9S, it's utterly WRONG for drizzt.

[Vaniel]

I liked the Cleric Quintet!

I'm not saying they are accurate, that's like saying a Fighter can beat a Wizard, or the developers actually think about what they are doing when publishing material.

I never played 2.0, so I couldn't give out my opinion on that specific fact.

/Vaniel

[Droodle]

Let's see ... first, what book are you thinking of where he beat a Balor with an artifact? Because I don't remember Errtu ever actually getting his hands on Crenshinibon, though he's sure tried a lot of times ...

Errtu took it after the Wizard that summoned him died. Errtu used Crenshinibon to burn a hole right through the hilt of his non-enchanted scimitar (and his hand, too, I think).

So ... Ranger 3 / Warblade 6 / Dervish 8 sound reasonable for ECL 19?

It seems like a pretty accurate build (but the Warblade and Ranger levels should probably be closer together (or a third base class should be added into the mix) in order to avoid multi-class penalties.....but would it be enough to beat a Balor in single combat with just a non-enchanted scimitar, a +3 Frostbrand, and a Mithril Chain Shirt? That, in my opinion, is the real challenge.

[Talya]

I liked the Cleric Quintet!

I'm not saying they are accurate, that's like saying a Fighter can beat a Wizard, or the developers actually think about what they are doing when publishing material.

I never played 2.0, so I couldn't give out my opinion on that specific fact.

/Vaniel

CQ was a fun series.

If you read Salvatore's entire FR line of books in the order they were written, you quickly see a progression and evolution as a writer, though.

While he's always made wonderful characters, fun plots, and narrated action beautifully, his character narrative started off as attrocious...the dialogue and the thoughts going through their heads (other that Drizzt's little chapter beginnings, which could be neat.) Salvatore was a terrible writer, but with enough good ideas to make his stuff entertaining anyway. But as he has written more and more, his style has greatly improved. You wouldn't know that the Hunter's Blades trilogy was written by the same guy that did Icewind Dale. He's improved a thousandfold in that time.

CQ is far enough back into his early writings that it still suffers from many of his older writing style flaws, and can be eye-rollingly stupid at times, but it's still just as entertaining as anything he has written.

[Droodle]

As much as I love ToB:Bo9S, it's utterly WRONG for drizzt.

I disagree. He trained one on one with a weapons master for years, and then trained for another 10 years at a massive martial institution that, at least according to it's name, only taught melee combat. Before ToB, I would have said his initial training was definitely as a fighter, but Martial Adept is a much better fit, given the nature of his early training.

[Talya]

If Melee Mag'there taught them to be warblades, crusaders, or swordsages, you'd be right.

It teaches them to be fighters, period. Martial Adepts are not generic, "fit anywhere" classes. They are very very specific in their flavor, and very much on rails as far as crunch goes, apart from the maneuvers and stances themselves. (Of which Drizzt has never demonstrated any knowledge of ANY of them.) They are not the generic, every-day melee classes of Faerun. There are no written characters in any faerun book that would fit as a martial adept at all, actually. With the combat detail that most FR authors go into, you'd know if they ever switched stances, or used a martial maneuver.

[Draz74]

Oh, and ...

I don't know what you mean by "whenever Wizards of the Coast publishes a build for a famous character". They published books and the likes AFTER the setting was first published. The books are only fluff. If the build doesn't match the books, than it's the writers fault, not the builds fault.

I think this is quite wrong. I think Elminster was in quite a few books before he was ever published as a stat block. He was definitely in a lot of books before he was published as a 3.5 stat block. Same goes for the others.

If you read Salvatore's entire FR line of books in the order they were written, you quickly see a progression and evolution as a writer, though.

While he's always made wonderful characters, fun plots, and narrated action beautifully, his character narrative started off as attrocious...the dialogue and the thoughts going through their heads (other that Drizzt's little chapter beginnings, which could be neat.) Salvatore was a terrible writer, but with enough good ideas to make his stuff entertaining anyway. But as he has written more and more, his style has greatly improved. You wouldn't know that the Hunter's Blades trilogy was written by the same guy that did Icewind Dale. He's improved a thousandfold in that time.

I agree his dialogue has improved greatly, and probably his prose style too. Unfortunately, IMHO, at the same time his plots have gotten shallower and more predictable. I don't know, maybe this is just because I'm a much harsher critic now than I was as a teenager, but I enjoy Salvatore's style less and less as the series goes on.

[sleeping fishy]

If Melee Mag'there taught them to be warblades, crusaders, or swordsages, you'd be right.

It teaches them to be fighters, period. Martial Adepts are not generic, "fit anywhere" classes. They are very very specific in their flavor, and very much on rails as far as crunch goes, apart from the maneuvers and stances themselves. (Of which Drizzt has never demonstrated any knowledge of ANY of them.) They are not the generic, every-day melee classes of Faerun. There are no written characters in any faerun book that would fit as a martial adept at all, actually. With the combat detail that most FR authors go into, you'd know if they ever switched stances, or used a martial maneuver.

*shrug* "stance" could be "being quick", "mountain hammer" could be "i hit him hard"... 9 swords stuff can be used without being all "omg i am using my leet kung fu, MOON POWER MAKEUP!"

[Talya]

I agree his dialogue has improved greatly, and probably his prose style too. Unfortunately, IMHO, at the same time his plots have gotten shallower and more predictable. I don't know, maybe this is just because I'm a much harsher critic now than I was as a teenager, but I enjoy Salvatore's style less and less as the series goes on.

Blame WotC for that. They made him resurrect Wulfgar, they won't let him seriously change any of his established characters or kill any of them off.

Read Promise of the Witch King & Road of the Patriarch for a better feel for it. He's only using two "iconic" characters in those books (Jarlaxle and Entreri), and the books are better for it. He kills off characters unpredictably, the plot twists are still typical, but a bit harder to predict.

[Droodle]

It teaches them to be fighters, period. Martial Adepts are not generic, "fit anywhere" classes. They are very very specific in their flavor, and very much on rails as far as crunch goes, apart from the maneuvers and stances themselves.

Actually, Salvatore describes stances and maneuvers all the time. He's constantly talking about Drizzt's footwork and frequently describes special attack patterns he employs....especially when he's fighting Entreri. Salvatore even gives Drizzt's different moves special names. The fact that the names and fluff don't perfectly match the names and fluff from the ToB probably has a lot to do with the fact that it wasn't published, yet.

[sleeping fishy]

im getting kinda tired of entreri, actually... "look character grwoth!" but jarlaxle is awesome!!

[Talya]

im getting kinda tired of entreri, actually... "look character grwoth!" but jarlaxle is awesome!!

Entreri's a dead end. He was only used as the straight-man serious foil to Jarlaxle's awesome and utter ridiculousness...I like the dwarf he added to the pair of 'em, Athrogate. I see interesting futures for Jarlaxle and Athrogate.

[sleeping fishy]

rly? i thouhgt the dwarf was too, ummm, over the top, myself?? i hope he can keep it up w/ jarlaxle, though... not make him too invincible/can do anything/item for everything/etc, i mean moreso than he is... then again i guess hes no more invicnible than drizzt.

[Draz74]

Read Promise of the Witch King & Road of the Patriarch for a better feel for it. He's only using two "iconic" characters in those books (Jarlaxle and Entreri), and the books are better for it. He kills off characters unpredictably, the plot twists are still typical, but a bit harder to predict.

I've read PotWK and half of RotP (I'll finish it soon, when I get time). Meh. They're entertaining, but my statements still stand.

[Ikkitosen]

Errtu took it after the Wizard that summoned him died. Errtu used Crenshinibon to burn a hole right through the hilt of his non-enchanted scimitar (and his hand, too, I think).

This is wrong. Akar Kessell was Crenshinibon's wielder, and was the one that burned through Drizzt's scimitar and hand inside Cryshal Tirith. Errtu was banished by this time thanks to Drizzt in a battle in a cave on the side of Kelvin's Cairn.

Remember, Drizzt won that fight largely by choosing the battlefield - what are the rules for squeezing into spaces too small for you again? The cave was too small to allow Errtu to unfurl his wings or to dodge Drizzt's attacks. Also don't forget that Guenhywvar played a significant role in distracting/injuring Errtu.

I agree that ToB should not be used for Drizzt. A fighter/ranger/whirling frenzy barbarian/dervish would be my bet.

Fighter from Melee Magthere.

Ranger and Barbarian from the events of Exile.

More ranger from training with Montolie Debrouchee.

Dervish from the evolution of his style.

I'd like to suggest some Scout to explain why he can win so many fights by constantly running around hitting things in vital areas but the medium BAB puts me off.

[Droodle]

Fighter from Melee Magthere.

Ranger and Barbarian from the events of Exile.

More ranger from training with Montolie Debrouchee.

Dervish from the evolution of his style.

Given the emphasis on stealth, trap setting, tracking, and choosing the battlefield in the training given at Melee Magathere, Fighter isn't a very good fit, either. They don't set traps, they don't have good stealth, they don't get trap setting......If you are looking at core classes Ranger, Thug Variant Sneak attack Fighter, or (God Forbid) Feat Rogue make a lot more sense than straight Fighter for what they are trained to do.

[Ikkitosen]

Given the emphasis on stealth, trap setting, tracking, and choosing the battlefield in the training given at Melee Magathere, Fighter isn't a very good fit, either. They don't set traps, they don't have good stealth, they don't get trap setting......If you are looking at core classes Ranger, Thug Variant Sneak attack Fighter, or (God Forbid) Feat Rogue make a lot more sense than straight Fighter for what they are trained to do.

Well, here's the thing - drow elves are sneaky because they're dextrous. They train their children from a young age, and so tend to be of higher level than other races who have an easier time of it and can thus be comparatively skilled with only cc ranks. I don't think hide and ms are class skills for melee magthere graduates.

More likely however is that they are all taught the Guerilla Warrior feat that allows them to purchase hide/ms at a 1-for-1 rate and to move easily in lighter armours (they're not as sneaky as rogues after all). Admittedly some would probably choose not to learn it (Uthegental Armgo anyone?) but I'd say it's something they're "encouraged" (in a Darwinian way) to learn.

They can't be rangers since most have no connection with animals and twf/archery are not the only styles they learn (admittedly this opens up if you include variants). Thug variant sneak attack fighter lacks the feats to represent the intense fighting styles many candidates learn. Rogues of any type lack the BAB.

Of course it's entirely possible that they can level in whatever combat class they choose, but IMO Drizzt - who's build is unlikely to be optimal since he had no idea where his life was going to lead him -took Fighter levels and bought Guerilla Warrior, Track and TWF feats. Maybe he retrained them later though when he started taking Ranger levels

Soooooo....Fighter 4 / WF Barb 1 (remember that when the Hunter first surfaced Drizzt couldn't control it) / Ranger 3 / Dervish X assuming you can qualify from there. Like I said, some retraining when he got to the surface is likely - Mooshie likely had different methods to Hatch'net et al.

[Narmoth]

You have all to remember that Drizzt was made after some broken down 2nd ed rules, not the D&D 3.5 -rules.
I think Elminiser was made first with 1st edition rules in some compendium, but I'm not shure. To try to make them fit a set of rules they weren't made after can be possible, but you shouldn't complain if it doesn't work.

[Turcano]

My hypothesized build would be Ranger 6/Tempest 5/ Dervish 7/Wildrunner 2. The ranger levels give him TWF, tempest and dervish fill the Cuisinart™ fighting style, and wildrunner gives primal scream, which fills in for rage.

[Matthew]

Actually, both Drizzt and Elminster were originally First Edition (A)D&D Characters. Drizzt makes his first published appearance in FR5 - The Savage Frontier as a Chaotic Good Level 10 Dark Elf Ranger with a Frostbrand Scimitar +3 (+6 versus Fire Using/Dwelling Creatures) and his Onyx Panther. He has no 'notable' Attributes, which means nothing above 15 at this point, though it could be a simple oversight.

By the end of the first nine books (Homeland, Exile, Sojourn, The Crystal Shard, Stream of Silver, The Halfling's Gem, The Legacy, Starless Night, Siege of Darkness), he was republished in the Heroes Lorebook with a load of broken rules as a Level 16 Ranger and some very notable Attributes (Dexterity 20, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 17).

[Draz74]

Of course it's entirely possible that they can level in whatever combat class they choose, but IMO Drizzt - who's build is unlikely to be optimal since he had no idea where his life was going to lead him

I think in spite of his uncertainty, Drizzt's natural curiosity (a tendancy to develop lots of skill points) and ambidexterity (a natural focus on the TWF tree) made him a better fit, right from the start, for Ranger than for any other class. I think if you approximated him as well as possible at the time he entered the Academy, the best fit you would find would be Ranger 2.

Granted, Ranger levels would not be a common choice for his classmates, even with TWF styles. But they work for Drizzt.

Then I still think he learned to be a Warblade as he kept training. Tiger Claw just makes sense in so many ways ...

[Behold_the_Void]

Warblade works really well for Drizzt. Remember, Tome of Battle Ranger also works really well for Drizzt and is not as uncommon as you guys are making it out for a drow. Think about it.

Tracking? Check.

Skilled in hiding and moving silently? Check.

Skilled in surviving in a hostile wilderness (in this case subterranean but it still counts as its populated by creatures and generally "uncivilied") environment? Check.

Skilled at fighting certain kinds of enemies? Check.

Skilled at either two-weapon combat or ranged combat? Check.

Just because they aren't frolicking in the forest with the cuddly animals doesn't mean they aren't rangers. I remember the 3.0 PHB at least had something about Dwarven underground rangers. If the dwarves have them, why can't the drow? Or at least some subterranean variant thereof.

His "hunter" aspect, the way I see it, is a completely roleplay mechanic. There are many examples of how even fighter-types can be played entirely differently, I'd say the Hunter is just the player behind the Drizzt PC saying "all right, he's in a different mode now, he does this differently than this." If done correctly, there's no need to make it any mechanically different.

Be that as it may, I realize it can be argued that the hunter is an altered state, in which case Frenzied Berserker or a simple Rage probably works best.

If you throw Warblade into the mix (I'd say Drizzt probably has Iron Heart, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw focus, maybe with some Stone Dragon or even White Raven Tactics at later levels) it also offers a very good way to play up the differences in his patterns from Hunter to normal Drizzt. Different maneuver and stance preparation can represent a completely changed mindset. Also remember, Warblade disciplines are not highly visible nor are they really supernatural, and there is precedence within the book regarding how Drizzt fights to further give credence to a Tome of Battle-style build. I've easily and seamlessly integrated Tome of Battle into a normal campaign setting, it served to give different fighting schools in different regions a lot more flavor than some bland feat-selection variations. Why can't the drow have their own Tome of Battle-like stye? And why couldn't Drizzt make use of it?

[Matthew]

Yeah, you're almost perfectly right about Ranger not being uncommon.

There are some issues, though. In previous Editions it was Alignment, but now it's the Divine Power of Nature/Spell Caster/Animal Companion part. A variant Ranger I could totally see as being appropriate, but a straight Ranger has too many niggling issues for my liking. Still, maybe most Drow Rangers don't go past Level 3 anyway or else Multi Class into Fighter or some other Base Class.

[Raistlin1040]

So we can't agree that Drizzt is a fantasy character, and thus making him statted would be as pointless as statting Superman, Achilles, or Raistlin? (Yes I know Raistlin has been statted, but it was a bad interpretation of his power.)