How to Tell a DM I Hate His DMPCs

[kraftcheese]

The guy our game is being run by is a good friend, and usually a pretty fun, flexible DM; his one fault is he loves his PCs so much that he uses every chance he gets to enthusiastically slot them into the campaign, using the excuse that "it's Planescape, so all the worlds my characters are from are linked to Sigil and do merc work for the not-Harmonium you two are part of."

We've recently only been playing with two players (down from 4, long story), me and another player; I suggested to the DM that so we could still survive encounters, maybe we could use some player controlled hireling type dudes to bring our party up to 4, having them restricted to combat and no complex skills or spells.

The DM has, instead of that, decided that we could choose from a roster of DMPCs (not specially made for this campaign, just his chars from previous games where he was the player) to take with us; they still only participate in combat, but we get vivid descriptions of his very out-of-place PCs doing whatever theyre doing and how cool the bladed chain whip of one of them looks when he draws it from his Victorian waistcoat (ugh) and stuff like that, and because they have all the abilities on .

He does good descriptions of combat with our characters and monsters too but I just HATE how he's subconsciously pushing his characters from different settings into the story and how they take away from us achieving things in combat through our ingenuity, but I like the DM and I don't want to say "I hate your DMPCs theyre boring and bad".

Has anyone got any advice on how to handle this?

[JNAProductions]

You're friends, right?

Then try saying this: "I really don't like your DMPCs. They're bad for the tone and take away from our accomplishments. Can we use player controlled hirelings instead, or just play multiple characters or something?"

[kraftcheese]

You're friends, right?

Then try saying this: "I really don't like your DMPCs. They're bad for the tone and take away from our accomplishments. Can we use player controlled hirelings instead, or just play multiple characters or something?"

Yeah, honestly I probably should; we dropped his DMPCs "back to base" at the end of the last session, so before the next session is as good a time as any I suppose.

[Lacco]

...shouldn't you, as the players choose from the roster the ones you want to take with you?

However, I agree - this should be just a point for discussion. Polite, without saying you hate his PCs, maybe just tell him you would like to have more power over the "hirelings".

[BWR]

Yes, straight up tell the DM what he's doing isn't fun and is actively unfun. If you want to soften the blow, seem very apologetic and make it out to be a problem with you and not so much him doing anything wrong.

[Nobot]

I think a lot of DMs have to learn this lesson (myself included). It can be a difficult one.

I would definitely talk to him about it and make it sincerely positive, for instance by first praising him for his good descriptions and then adding that there's room for improvement in the NPC field as you guys sometimes feel more like you're watching a movie (a cool movie, but a movie nonetheless) instead of taking part in a story. You could suggest to him that this is easily remedied by giving you guys a little more control over the story and the characters that are on your team. Let him come up with a suggestion based on that info and take it from there.

[MrZJunior]

I believe a dagger in the back is traditional.

[Cluedrew]

As long as you have a reasonable DM, if you bring this up in a reasonable way, you should be fine. Just avoid being too confrontational or accusatory about it. Maybe even start by mentioning it in passing.

[Geddy2112]

DMPC's are almost always brought in with the best of intentions, but rarely if ever work. Just let him know you want hirelings, not other PC's. Tell him it is not fun to have DMPC's. He seems pretty reasonable, so I think just being friendly about it will fix it. If he does not get the message, leave the game.

Alternatively, find new players and eliminate the need for DMPC's.

[Airk]

Gently, but firmly. :P

Don't cast blame, and try to avoid saying that you "Hate" it, but point out what it is doing to your enjoyment of the game.

[OldTrees1]

How to tell X that you hate their Y:

Clearly with calm/muted terms while standing next to them and aiming away from both of you.
Clearly: Communication is key. Do not clutter the message with misunderstandings
Calm/muted terms: Hate is strong even if true, calm terms tend to slip under people's defenses
Standing next to them: You are on their side even on this. It is harder to be defensive against a perceived ally and we see our allies as less threatening.
Aiming away: Do not focus blame on or let your words attack X. It is harder to perceive something as an attack(to react defensively towards) if it is not an attack.

Example:
[Greetings]. I really appreciate the work you put into making this enjoyable game we all enjoy. I really enjoy the [Recent enjoyable specifics]. However I have been finding these [Y] have been detracting from my ability to enjoy all these enjoyable things that you have worked to put in the campaign for us all to enjoy. [Give a specific example IF AND ONLY IF they focus on concrete examples]. * Thank you for listening. * See you next [Session time].
"*" marks points that they might interject resulting is a period of unscripted important communication.

[JNAProductions]

How to tell X that you hate their Y:

Clearly with calm/muted terms while standing next to them and aiming away from both of you.
Clearly: Communication is key. Do not clutter the message with misunderstandings
Calm/muted terms: Hate is strong even if true, calm terms tend to slip under people's defenses
Standing next to them: You are on their side even on this. It is harder to be defensive against a perceived ally and we see our allies as less threatening.
Aiming away: Do not focus blame on or let your words attack X. It is harder to perceive something as an attack(to react defensively towards) if it is not an attack.

Example:
[Greetings]. I really appreciate the work you put into making this enjoyable game we all enjoy. I really enjoy the [Recent enjoyable specifics]. However I have been finding these [Y] have been detracting from my ability to enjoy all these enjoyable things that you have worked to put in the campaign for us all to enjoy. [Give a specific example IF AND ONLY IF they focus on concrete examples]. * Thank you for listening. * See you next [Session time].
"*" marks points that they might interject resulting is a period of unscripted important communication.

This. This all the way. Make it clear you like their game, make it clear you're having fun, but also make it clear that this aspect is detracting from the fun, and should be removed.

[Rusvul]

Perhaps tell him that the requirements for good PC and good DMPC are very different, and while his characters are absolutely the first they're not so much the second.

[Velaryon]

How to tell X that you hate their Y:

Clearly with calm/muted terms while standing next to them and aiming away from both of you.
Clearly: Communication is key. Do not clutter the message with misunderstandings
Calm/muted terms: Hate is strong even if true, calm terms tend to slip under people's defenses
Standing next to them: You are on their side even on this. It is harder to be defensive against a perceived ally and we see our allies as less threatening.
Aiming away: Do not focus blame on or let your words attack X. It is harder to perceive something as an attack(to react defensively towards) if it is not an attack.

Example:
[Greetings]. I really appreciate the work you put into making this enjoyable game we all enjoy. I really enjoy the [Recent enjoyable specifics]. However I have been finding these [Y] have been detracting from my ability to enjoy all these enjoyable things that you have worked to put in the campaign for us all to enjoy. [Give a specific example IF AND ONLY IF they focus on concrete examples]. * Thank you for listening. * See you next [Session time].
"*" marks points that they might interject resulting is a period of unscripted important communication.

This right here is the best framework for your argument. Just personalize it as necessary and you should be good to go.

Another good thing you can add, if necessary, is that you know he loves his old characters (we all tend to love our old characters), but they had their story. This time the story is about your characters. Cameos are cool and all, but when they start taking over the spotlight from the PCs (which is the great danger of the DMPC), then they're not serving their purpose and they're actually harming the fun. That's not the fault of the character, just the role in which they're being used.

[kraftcheese]

We were hanging out yesterday and when we were talking about our next session he brought it up, asked ME if we'd prefer to have hirelings/secondary PCs rather than DMPCs considering he felt like he was dominating combat last session, and that it would mean he'd have two less character sheets to keep track of, so I guess the problem kinda sorted itself?

[Quertus]

We were hanging out yesterday and when we were talking about our next session he brought it up, asked ME if we'd prefer to have hirelings/secondary PCs rather than DMPCs considering he felt like he was dominating combat last session, and that it would mean he'd have two less character sheets to keep track of, so I guess the problem kinda sorted itself?

Seems like. Was he dominating combat? Was your only issue with them that they were out of place?

[Sam113097]

The important thing to remember is that, even though it's the Game Master telling the story, the PCs are the main characters of that story. If you introduce something that overshadows the PCs too much, the players no longer feel like it's their story. Avoiding GMPCs is one of the major lessons that a GM needs to learn. I'm glad everything worked out in this case!

[kraftcheese]

Seems like. Was he dominating combat? Was your only issue with them that they were out of place?

Well, not necessarily dominating combat; more that half of the decisions on our side of the fight were being made by the DM, and it kinda felt like it was taking away from the players contributions, you know?

And I kinda felt they were out of place, his previous campaigns characters all seem to have a sort of cheesy steampunk or anime influence which I just personally don't like and felt like it didn't fit our campaign much (unnaturally coloured hair for no reason, out of place clothes in a vaguely medieval setting, use of goofy, inconvenient weapons like extendo-cane-that-becomes-a-chain-whip-with-10-ft-reach-and-slashing-blades-on-it etc) and I understand that some people like that stuff, but the rest of the campaign hasn't had any of that feel, and I personally don't like the goobyness of it.

[Jay R]

Don't tell him that you hate his DMPCs. Tell him that you hate the idea of DMPCs. It shouldn't be about him.

His job is to set up problems to solve. Your job is to solve them. If he takes on both jobs, then there's nothing left for you. Ask him to play the game with his DMPCs some other night, so you can play the game of actual PCs without the DM solving the problems for you.

[valadil]

If you want to be more diplomatic, "Your DMPCs are cool characters, but they're stealing the spotlight from the PCs. This game is supposed to be about this PCs, but the DMPCs put us on the backburner."