A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Bugs, spiders, mites, leeches and crabs. These are the little bugs that so many class features, particularly ACFs and drow related prestige classes, refer to. But they don't really hang out in the same place. So I did my best to fix that. I searched through the following sources for all the vermin.

    Maybe you want to vermin wild-shape. Maybe you want a vermin companion. Maybe you are thinking of being an entomathrope.

    Spoiler: Sources Checked
    Show

    Core
    SRD, Monster Manual 1, DMG, PHB

    CORE PLUS
    defenders of the faith
    complete scoundrel
    Lord of Iron Fortress
    Races of the Wild
    masters of the wild
    complete warrior
    Heroes of Horror
    Races of the Dragon
    sword and fist
    Draconomicon
    Ghostwalk
    Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard
    song and silence
    Dragon Compendium
    FrostBurn
    stormwrack
    Arms and equipment guide
    expanded psionics handbook
    Fiendish Codex 2
    TOB
    cityscape
    epic level handbook
    Fiendish Codex 1
    TOM
    complete adventurer
    Dragon Magic
    Expedition to demonweb pits
    Book of Exalted Deeds
    complete arcane
    Drow of the Underdark
    Magic item Compendium
    Book of Vile Darkness
    complete champion
    Dungeonscape
    Races of Stone
    Fiend Folio
    complete divine
    Magic of Incarnum
    Races of Destiny
    Libris Mortis
    DMG2
    Manual of the planes
    Weapons of Legacy
    Lords of Madness
    Enemies and Allies
    Miniatures Handbook
    Sandstorm
    Fortress of the Yuan-ti
    complete mage
    Monster Manual IV
    Monster Manual III
    PHB2
    Monster Manual II
    Planar Handbook
    DMG2
    Unearthed Arcana

    Faerun
    Monsters of Faerûn
    Lost empires of Faerun
    underdark
    Expedition to Undermountain
    Anauroch The Empire Of Shade
    Twilight Tomb
    Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
    Mysteries of the Moonsea
    Champions of Valor
    Unapproachable East
    Champions of Ruin
    Silver Marches
    City of Splendors, Waterdeep
    Shining South
    Cormyr tearing of the Weave
    Shadowdale the scouring of the land
    Dragons of Faerun
    Serpent Kingdoms
    Faiths and Pantheons
    Races of Faerun
    Heroes of Battle
    Power of faerun
    Lords of Darkness
    magic of faerun
    Player’s guide to faerun

    Eberron
    Faiths of Eberron
    Grasp of the emerald claw
    secrets of xendric
    Voyage of the golden dragon
    secrets of sarlona
    Eyes of the lich queen
    Dragons of eberron
    sharn, city of 2 towers
    shadows of the last war
    explorers handbook
    5 nations
    magic of eberron
    dragonmarked
    the forge of war
    city of storm reach
    eberron campaign setting

    Other
    Dragonlance Campaign setting


    So, Here they are, Every Vermin allowed in the game, Sorted by HD.

    Over the next few days/weeks, I will be adding in quick ability summaries and ratings for power per HD. The problem is that I cut and pasted my entire table together, and thus need to transcribe things to give you an overview that works within the rules of fair use.

    You will see that I have not included swarms, with the exception of the rot grub swarm. Swarms follow slightly different rules and shall be added in later, when I familiarize myself with more swarm rules. You will also notice that there are two different maggot entries but not a single adult giant fly, or screwfly entries. What the heck wizards?

    Name CR Size Type (subtype) HD Book
    Monstrous Centipede, Small <1 Small vermin 0 SRD
    Monstrous Centipede, Tiny <1 Tiny vermin 0 SRD
    Monstrous Scorpion, Tiny <1 Tiny vermin 0 SRD
    Monstrous Spider, Tiny <1 Tiny vermin 0 SRD
    Argent Spider, tiny 1 Tiny Vermin 1 web
    Spider, Subteranean, Hairy <1 Fine vermin 0 MF 79
    Ectoplasmic Vermin, Small 1/2 Small Vermin 1 GW 161
    Ectoplasmic Vermin, Tiny 1/3 Tiny Vermin 1/2 GW 161
    Fire Beetle, Giant <1 Small vermin 1 SRD
    Fulminating Crab 1 Small vermin 1 Web
    Giant Fly 1/8 Tiny Vermin 1 Web
    Monstrous Centipede, Medium <1 Medium vermin 1 SRD
    Monstrous Scorpion, Small <1 Small vermin 1 SRD
    Monstrous Spider, Small <1 Small vermin 1 SRD
    Hoard Scarab 1/2 Fine vermin 1 Dragonomicon
    Snow Spider, small 1/2 small vermin 1 FB
    Giant Termite, worker 1/3 Small Vermin 1 SSt
    Monstrous Crab, small 1/2 Small Vermin 1 SW
    Leech, Giant 1/3 small Vermin 1 SW
    Hairy Spider - Fine Vermin 1 Faiths and Pantheons
    Wiggling Maggot 1/10 diminutive Vermin 1 Web
    Ant, Giant, Soldier 2 Medium vermin 2 SRD
    Ant, Giant, Worker 1 Medium vermin 2 SRD
    Bombardier Beetle, Giant 2 Medium vermin 2 SRD
    Monstrous Scorpion, Medium Medium vermin 2 SRD
    Monstrous Spider, Medium 1 Medium vermin 2 SRD
    Snow spider, medium 1 medium vermin 2 FB
    Giant Maggot 1/2 small Vermin 2 Und
    Giant Whip Spider 1 Medium Vermin 2 LEoF p. 161
    Ectoplasmic Vermin, medium 1 Medium Vermin 2 GW 161
    Bee, Giant 1 Medium vermin 3 SRD
    Monstrous Centipede, Large 1 Large vermin 3 SRD
    Giant Dragonfly 1 Large vermin 3 AEG
    Giant Firefly 1/2 Large vermin 3 AEG
    Giant Termite, Soldier 2 Medium Vermin 3 SSt
    Monstrous Crab, Medium 2 Medium Vermin 3 SW
    Ant, Giant, Queen 2 Large vermin 4 SRD
    Argent Spider, Medium 3 Medium Vermin 4 Web
    Monstrous Spider, Large 2 Large vermin 4 SRD
    Praying Mantis, Giant 3 Large vermin 4 SRD
    Snow Spider large 2 large vermin 4 FB
    Giant Cockroach 2 medium Vermin 4 Underdark
    Giant Whip Scorpion 2 Large Vermin 4 LEoF p. 160
    Monstrous Scorpion, Large Large vermin 5 SRD
    Neogi, Great Old Master 6 Huge verminAberration: updated in LoM 5 MM2 159 LoM p.91
    Spider, Subteranean, Sword 5 Large vermin 5 MF 79
    Wasp, Giant 3 Large vermin 5 SRD
    Brine Swimmer 3 Large Vermin 5 SSt
    Argent Spider, Large 5 Large Vermin 8 WEB
    Dire Maggot 2 Small vermin 6 LMo 95
    Knell Beetle, Lesser 5 Medium vermin 6 MM3 89
    Monstrous Centipede, Huge 2 Huge vermin 6 SRD
    Giant Termite, Queen 1 Large Vermin 6 SSt
    Monstrous Crab, Large 4 Large Vermin 6 SW
    Giant Sun Spider 2 Large Vermin 6 LEoF p. 162
    Stag Beetle, Giant 4 Large vermin 7 SRD
    Spitting Spider 5 Large vermin 7 DOTU
    Monstrous crab 3 Large vermin(aquatic) 7 web-far corners
    Monstrous Spider, Huge 5 Huge vermin 8 SRD
    Giant ant lion 5 Large Vermin 8 SSt
    Monstrous Scorpion, Huge Huge vermin 10 SRD
    Velvet worm, Giant 5 Huge Vermin 10 LEoF p. 191
    Monstrous Toebiter 7 Large Vermin 10 web-far corners
    Gajusian (Sonic) Crawler 6 Huge Vermin 10 Web
    Chelicera 6 Medium vermin 12 MM3 27
    Knell Beetle 10 Large vermin 12 MM3 88
    Monstrous Centipede, Gargantuan 6 Gargantuan vermin 12 SRD
    Tangle Terror Spider 8 Medium vermin 12 DOTU
    Rot Grub Swarm 6 Diminutive vermin(swarm) 12 DS
    Monstrous Crab, Huge 7 Huge Vermin 12 SW
    Leechwalker 10 Medium vermin 13 MM2 135
    Widowmaker 10 Large vermin 13 DOTU
    Bonespear 12 Large vermin(extraplanar) 15 FF 24
    Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan 8 Gargantuan vermin 16 SRD
    Argent Spider, Huge 7 Huge Vermin 16 web
    Astral Kraken 16 Gargantuan vermin(extraplanar) 20 PlH 109
    Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan Gargantuan vermin 20 SRD
    Siege Crab 14 Gargantuan vermin(aquatic) 20 MM3 157
    Monstrous Centipede, Colossal 9 Colossal vermin 24 SRD
    Monstrous Crab, gargantuan 10 Gargantuan Vermin 24 SW
    Megapede 20 Colossal vermin 32 MM2 148
    Monstrous Spider, Colossal 11 Colossal vermin 32 SRD
    Siege Crab, Greater 18 Colossal vermin(aquatic) 32 MM3 157
    Argent Spider, Gargantuan 10 Gargantuan Vermin 32 Web
    Century Worm 19 Gargantuan vermin 40 FF 31
    Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal Colossal vermin 40 SRD
    Monstrous Crab, colossal 13 Colossal Vermin 48 SW

    As it stands, my first impression is that there are couple clear winners and wierders.
    Bonespear is fantastic,
    Monstrous crabs are king! Seriously, get vermin shape and monster crab all over your enemies.
    Sword subterranean spider has a really neat scaling jump attack that might pair well with TOB.
    Giant leech is pretty neat if you can find a way to carry murky water with you to attack from.
    Leechwalker is also weird as heck.

    Other important trends: For those who are considering vermin wildshaping.
    Every poison DC scales off of constitution bonus, and most of these bugs have low constitution scores as compared to animals. If you can boost your constitution, your poisons will have a higher DC, and therefor be more useful.

    No vermin power keys off of will saves. Most vermin abilities key off fort saves. Which makes you good at wizard slaying, bad at bruiser beating. To compensate, there are a number of vermin forms that come online that allow you to siphon off constitution through ability damage, assuming you have access to multiple vermin. This will depress the fort saves and make them more amenable to poisoning.

    Improved grab is great, so you have to bone up on your grappling knowledge.

    At every HD there are some good jump, climb, spot, hide, and move silently bonii.

    Every locomotion form is represented, including burrowing.

    Very few supernatural abilities. No spell like abilities.

    Other vermin related stuff:
    Epic level handbook Devastation Vermin
    Complete Scoundrel Gut mites
    Torch Bug
    DMG2 VESTMENT OF VERMINSHAPE
    Ghostwalk Ectoplasmic vermin
    stormwrack diving spiders p.169
    underdark vermin keeper prestige class
    sharn city of 2 towers rancid beetle swarm
    web vineswarm, skitterhaunt template (vermin to ooze)

    If you can find any web features that highlight vermin, or you know of some great vermin enhancing items, feel free to contribute.

    For general swarms, this thread is helpful: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...eds-more-Swarm!
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-09-14 at 10:16 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Spoiler: Table 2: Vermin Skills and ability scores relevant to wild shape
    Show


    Name Book Size HD STR DEX CON Movement Skills
    Monstrous
    Centipede,
    Tiny
    SRD Tiny 0 1 15 10 20, Climb 20 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Monstrous
    Centipede,
    Small
    SRD Small 0 5 15 10 30, climb 30 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Monstrous
    Scorpion, Tiny
    SRD Tiny 0 3 10 14 20 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Spider, Tiny
    SRD Tiny 0 3 17 10 20, Climb 10 Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial , +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Spider,
    Subterranean,
    Hairy
    MF 79 Fine 0 1 14 10 Hide: +4 racial
    Jump: +6 racial
    Spot: +12 racial
    Ectoplasmic vermin, tiny GW 161 Tiny 0 3 15 10 20, 10 climb
    Fire Beetle,
    Giant
    SRD Small 1 10 11 11 30 -
    Monstrous
    Centipede,
    Medium
    SRD Medium 1 9 15 10 40, climb 40 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Monstrous
    Scorpion, Small
    SRD Small 1 9 10 14 30 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Spider, Small
    SRD Small 1 7 17 10 30, climb 20 Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial , +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Hoard Scarab Drconmcn Fine 1 1 13 13 20, 20 climb Listen: +4 Racial
    Hide: +4 racial when concealed among 10 or more coins
    Climb: +8 racial
    Snow Spider,
    small
    FB small 1 7 18 11 30, climb 30 Hide: +4 racial
    Jump: +20 racial
    Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Giant Termite,
    worker
    SSt Small 1 8 10 10 30, climb 20 Climb: +8 racial
    Monstrous Crab,
    small
    SW Small 1 10 11 12 20 Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Leech, Giant SW small 1 6 12 11 Swim 10 Hide: +4 racial
    Swim: +8 racial
    Hairy Spider F&P p183 Fine 1 20, 10 climb -
    Ant, Giant,
    Soldier
    SRD Medium 2 14 10 13 50, climb 20 Survival +4 racial ,when tracking by scent
    Climb: +8 racial
    Ant, Giant,
    Worker
    SRD Medium 2 10 10 10 50, climb 20 Survival +4 racial ,when tracking by scent
    Climb: +8 racial
    Bombardier
    Beetle, Giant
    SRD Medium 2 13 10 14 30 -
    Monstrous
    Scorpion,
    Medium
    SRD Medium 2 13 10 14 40 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Spider,
    Medium
    SRD Medium 2 11 17 12 30, climb 20 Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial , +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Snow spider,
    medium
    FB medium 2 11 18 13 40, climb 40 Hide: +4 racial
    Jump: +20 racial
    Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Giant Maggot Und small 2 7 13 13 20 -
    Giant Whip
    Spider
    LEoF p 161 Medium 2 13 14 14 40 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Bee, Giant SRD Medium 3 11 14 11 20, 80 fly (good) Spot: +4 racial
    Survival: +4 racial on Survival checks to orient themselves
    Monstrous
    Centipede,
    Large
    SRD Large 3 13 15 10 40, climb 40 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Giant Dragonfly AEG Large 3 18 12 13 20, 60 flying (good) -
    Giant Firefly AEG Large 3 16 15 14 20, 50 flying (good) -
    Giant Termite,
    Soldier
    SSt Medium 3 16 10 13 30, climb 20 Climb: +8 racial
    Monstrous
    Crab,
    Medium
    SW Medium 3 15 11 12 20 Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Ant, Giant,
    Queen
    SRD Large 4 16 9 13 40 Survival +4 racial ,when tracking by scent
    Climb: +8 racial
    Monstrous
    Spider,
    Large
    SRD Large 4 15 17 12 30, climb 20 Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial , +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Praying
    Mantis, Giant
    SRD Large 4 19 8 15 20, 40 flying (poor) Hide: +4 racial , +12 when surrounded by foliage
    Spot: +4 racial
    Snow Spider,
    large
    FB large 4 15 18 14 40, climb 40 Hide: +4 racial
    Jump: +20 racial
    Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Giant
    Cockroach
    Und medium 4 21 18 16 40, climb 40 Climb: +12 racial
    Hide: +10 racial
    Move Silently: +6 racial
    Giant Whip Scorpion LEoF p 160 Large 4 15 12 14 50 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Scorpion,
    Large
    SRD Large 5 19 10 14 50 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Spider,
    Subterranean,
    Sword
    MF 79 Large 5 18 10 14 20, 20 climb Hide: +4 racial
    Jump: +6 racial
    Spot: +12 racial
    Wasp, Giant SRD Large 5 18 12 14 20, 60 flying (good) Spot: +8 racial
    Survival: +4 racial on Survival checks to orient themselves
    Brine
    Swimmer
    SSt Large 5 17 16 15 20, 40 swim Swim: +8 racial
    Dire Maggot LMo p95 Small 6 13 15 12 40, climb 40 -
    Knell Beetle,
    Lesser
    MM3 p89 Medium 6 18 12 18 40, burrow 10 Balance: +4 racial
    Listen: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Centipede,
    Huge
    SRD Huge 6 17 15 12 40, climb 40 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Giant Termite,
    Queen
    SSt Large 6 8 3 16 5 -
    Monstrous
    Crab, Large
    SW Large 6 21 11 12 20 Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Giant Sun
    Spider
    LEoF p 162 Large 6 17 15 14 40 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Stag
    Beetle,
    Giant
    SRD Large 7 23 10 17 20 -
    Spitting
    Spider
    DOTU Large 7 22 17 18 40, climb 20 Climb: +8 racial
    Move Silently: +8 racial
    Spot: +8 racial
    Jump: +10 racial
    Monstrous
    crab
    web-
    far corners
    Large 7 22 14 21 40, 30 swim -
    Monstrous
    Spider,
    Huge
    SRD Huge 8 19 17 14 30, climb 20 Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial , +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Giant ant lion SSt Large 8 19 8 17 20, burrow 20 Hide: +8 racial , rises to +12 when buried in sandy pits
    Listen: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Scorpion,
    Huge
    SRD Huge 10 23 10 16 50 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Velvet
    Worm,
    Giant
    LEoF p 191 Huge 10 22 11 16 20, 10 climb Listen: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Toebiter
    web-
    far corners
    Large 10 26 13 20 20, swim 40 Hide: +4 racial , +20 when in swamp or marsh crab
    Chelicera MM3 27 Medium 12 14 19 12 30, climb 30 Hide: +8 racial
    Listen: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Knell Beetle MM3 88 Large 12 26 10 23 50, burrow 10 Balance: +8 racial
    Listen: +8 racial
    Spot: +8 racial
    Monstrous
    Centipede, Gargantuan
    SRD Gargantuan 12 23 15 12 40, climb 40 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Tangle
    Terror
    Spider
    DOTU Medium 12 14 19 18 30, climb 30 Climb: +8 racial
    Move Silently: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Rot Grub
    Swarm
    DS Diminutive 12 1 14 10 10, climb 10 Move silently: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial when hiding inside a corpse of at least medium size
    Climb +8 racial , using dex instead of strength
    Monstrous
    Crab, Huge
    SW Huge 12 25 11 14 30 Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Leechwalker MM2 135 Medium 13 18 11 16 30, swim 20 -
    Giant Spider, Widowmaker DOTU Large 13 20 17 22 30, climb 20 Climb: +8 racial
    Move Silently: +8 racial
    Spot: +8 racial
    Jump: +10 racial
    Bonespear FF 24 Large 15 22 17 19 40 -
    Monstrous
    Spider,
    Gargantuan
    SRD Gargantuan 16 25 17 14 30, 20 climb Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial , +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Astral Kraken PlH 109 Gargantuan 20 34 13 27 fly 60 -
    Monstrous
    Scorpion,
    Gargantuan
    SRD Gargantuan 20 31 10 16 50 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Siege Crab MM3 157 Gargantuan 20 30 6 21 60, swim 60 Swim: +8 racial
    Monstrous
    Centipede,
    Colossal
    SRD Colossal 24 27 13 12 40, climb 40 Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hide: +8 racial
    Can use either Str or Dex modifier for Climb checks
    Monstrous Crab, gargantuan SW Gargantuan 24 33 11 14 30 Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Megapede MM2 p148 Colossal 32 43 7 27 80, burrow 20 -
    Monstrous
    Spider,
    Colossal
    SRD Colossal 32 31 15 14 30, 20 climb Webspinner:
    Hide: +4 racial, +8 on their webs
    Move Silently: +8 racial on their webs
    Spot: +4 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Hunting Spiders:
    Hide: +4 racial Jump: +10 racial Spot: +8 racial
    Climb: +8 racial
    Both: Can use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks
    Siege Crab,
    Greater
    MM3 p157 Colossal 32 38 6 28 60, swim 60 Swim: +8 racial
    Century Worm FF 31 Gargantuan 40 35 7 22 30, burrow 20, swim 10 Swim: +8 racial
    Monstrous
    Scorpion,
    Colossal
    SRD Colossal 40 35 8 16 50 Climb: +4 racial
    Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial
    Monstrous
    Crab, colossal
    SW Colossal 48 37 9 14 40 Hide: +4 racial
    Spot: +4 racial


    Breakdown by HD: The first 5 HD have a bunch of forms available to a PC. What I have excluded is the advancement category, so you may have access to advanced vermin depending on your DM or game.

    Legend:
    Excellent
    Good
    Average
    Bad


    Notes: tremor sense is assumed to be 60 feet. Webs break DC is 4 higher than the escape artist check. All poison DCs are constitution based. All poison damage is initial and secondary unless specified otherwise. Climb and swim speeds result in +8 bonuses to those checks as well as the ability to take 10.

    Spoiler: >1 HD:
    Show


    All have DC 10 poison except hairy subterranean spider which inexplicably has DC 11.

    Monstrous Centipede, Tiny

    Monstrous Centipede, Small : Good skill set (hide +8, spot +4), small size, poison: 1d2 dex damage, 30 climb speed.

    Monstrous Scorpion, Tiny : Too small to grapple, skills nothing special, poison: 1 str damage

    Monstrous Spider, Tiny: Good skill set (webspinners: +8 move silently, hunters: +10 jump,+8 spot), poison: 1d2 str, web,

    Spider, Subteranean, Hairy: Highest spot check (+12), fine sized. Turns purple if you have access to fine size with minimal investment, and you can access that spot check.

    Ectoplasmic Vermin, Tiny: Fast healing 1, daylight sensitivity, terrible poison, no skills, can be manipulated as ectoplasm. Get the Medium version.


    Spoiler: 1 HD:
    Show

    Fire Beetle, Giant: Shed light in 10', no new forms of movement.

    Monstrous Centipede, Medium: 40', 40' climb, Poison (Ex): DC 10. 1d3 dex damage, good skills.

    Monstrous Scorpion, Small: Constrict (Ex): automatic claw damage on a successful grapple check. Improved Grab (Ex): Claw attack. A monstrous scorpion can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better. Poison (Ex): DC 12, 1d2 Con damage. At small size, this is meh.

    Monstrous Spider, Small: 30'/20 climb,Poison (Ex): DC 10, 1d3 Str damage. Web (Ex): Escape Artist check (DC10) Each 5-foot section has 4 HP, Tremorsense.

    Hoard Scarab: Burrow is a good ability, do 1d2 con damage a round if enemy doesn't pass a DC 11 REF save after you bite them. Fine size is a hassle. Skills meh.

    Snow Spider, small: 30, 30 climb speed, +8 spot, +20 jump, jump charge for +4 to hit, poison: DC 10; 1d3 dex/paralysis, paralysis has no listed duration. Tremorsense.

    Giant Termite, worker: Bad stats, climb speed.

    Monstrous Crab, small: Constrict (Ex): 2x claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check. Improved Grab (Ex): Claw; Monstrous crabs have a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks. Amphibious (ex): Can survive indefinitely on land, no swim speed. Boost this guys strength, and he's worth something to you. Otherwise, ignore.

    Leech, Giant: 30 swim speed, In murky water at least 2 feet deep, this is blue. Anesthetize, Attach and Blood Drain are all good if you have a good hide score and can access dirty water. Disease (EX): bite: DC 15 Fort save or contact red ache (p. 292 of DMG). If you can summon dirty water, this becomes quite powerful.

    Hairy Spider: poorly statted, use the one above.


    Spoiler: 2HD
    Show

    Ant, Giant, Soldier: 50' land, 20' climb, scent and track, Access to ex acid in your stinger for providing weak acid for your flask rogue, Improved grab: bite. Good utility form. Use for tracking and scouting.

    Ant, Giant, Worker:
    50'land, 20'climb, scent and track, no combat utility.

    Bombardier Beetle, Giant:
    1/round:Acid Spray (ex): 10’ cone, DC 13 (con based), 1d4+2 acid damage. It appears that the con score only adds +2 to the DC, so you may be able to argue that the DC calculation for the acid spray is 10+1/2hd+con modifier. Not immune to its own acid. Melt your troubles away but don't step in the puddle. Supply your team rogue with acid. No attack roll necessary. Good low level vermin for mook slayin or door melting.

    Monstrous Scorpion, Medium:
    Poison (Ex): DC 13, 1d3 Con damage. Improved grab is better now that the scorpion is medium sized.

    Monstrous Spider, Medium:
    Poison (Ex): bite: DC 12, 1d4 Str damage. Web (Ex): Escape Artist check (DC12) Each 5-foot section has 6 HP. Tremorsense. Spider is starting to be consistent. Use the webs to your advantage. No reason to use hunting spider, the snow spider can take care of all your needs better.

    Snow spider, medium:
    40'land, 40'climb, massive jump bonus, +8 spot. Poison (Ex): bite. DC 12 1d4 dex/paralysis. Tremorsense. Charging bonus. Ambush and retreat up walls.

    Giant Maggot:
    No attack to speak of, 20 movement. Only use this vermin to grow a giant fly to ride.

    Giant Whip Spider:
    40'land, improved grab: claw, squeeze does 2X claw damage + makes your bite a primary attack while grappling. If you optimized grappling feats, this becomes Blue.


    Spoiler: 3HD, (AKA: 75% of all of your flight options)
    Show

    Bee, Giant: 20' land, 80' fly (good). Poison (ex): stinger DC 11, 1d4 con. "The bee then dies." Great for quick fly speed, terrible for killing itself. If you polymorph someone else into a giant bee, and then fling yourself at their stinger...anyways, don't use this vermin unless you can handle the DM killing it off by sending a kamikaze mook at the stinger. Can serve as a mount
    Monstrous Centipede, Large:
    40' land, climb 40'. Poison (Ex): DC 11. 1d4 dex damage. Decent Skills.

    Giant Dragonfly:
    20' land, 60' flying (good). The safest flight option of a decent speed. Consider arguing for a perfect maneuverability and point-out that IRL dragonflies are one of the few flyers that can fly backwards. Can serve as a mount.

    Giant Firefly:
    20' land, 50' flying (good). You can shed light in 10'. Good for night searching. Can serve as a mount.

    Giant Termite, Soldier:
    30' land, climb 20. Improved grab: bite. Constrict: automatic bite damage during grapple. Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage 1d4 acid, secondary damage paralysis 1d4 rounds. Not a bad vermin, poison with paralysis as secondary damage is good.

    Monstrous Crab, Medium:
    20' land, Improved Grab: claw. Constrict: 2 x (claw + strength) damage.


    Spoiler: 4HD
    Show

    Giant Ant, Queen: 40' land, improved grab: bite (2d6).

    Monstrous Spider, Large: Poison (Ex): bite (1d8): DC 13, 1d6 Str damage. Web (Ex): Escape Artist check (DC13) Each 5-foot section has 12 HP. Tremorsense. Good skills.

    Praying Mantis, Giant: 20' land, 40' flying (poor), improved grab: claw(1d8) - makes bite(1d6) primary attack.+12 hide in foliage.

    Snow Spider, Large:
    40' land, 40' climb. Leap (Ex): If snow spider can jump on its prey by making a Jump check as part of its movement, it can make a charge attack with a +4 attack bonus instead of the normal +2. Poison (Ex): bite. DC 14; 1d6 dex/paralysis. Tremorsense. Again, a strong option.

    Giant Cockroach:
    40' land, 40' climb. Stench (Ex): Every creature (except cockroaches) within 30 feet of the giant cockroach must make a DC 15 Fort save (The save DC is Con-based) or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. Whether or not the save is successful, the creature cannot be affected again by any giant cockroach’s stench for 1 hour. Tremorsense. Wierdly enough, great move silently(+6) and hide (+10) bonuses...if you only need to sneak up on noseless things.

    Giant Whip Scorpion:
    Improved Grab (ex): Claw (1d4+1); opponent must be one size category Smaller than itself. Squeeze (Ex): Automatically deals damage with both claws and can makes bite (1d6) primary attack. Poison spray (ex): 3/day 20’ diameter spread of noxious poison (fort save DC 14, initial and secondary damage 1d4 dex) the save DC is Constitution Based. Good combat Form, if you grab something, dump all three sprays during the combat.

    Spoiler: 5HD
    Show

    Monstrous Scorpion, Large: 50' land,Constrict (Ex): CLAW(1d6) Improved Grab (Ex): Claw: A monstrous scorpion can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better. Poison (Ex): sting, DC 14, 1d4 Con damage.

    Neogi, Great Old Master:
    This is a Vermin in MM2 with an ex ability to generate a bunch of tiny neogi, 2d4 at a time, as both a standard action and as a free action reaction to taking damage. It was updated in LoM to be an aberration. But maybe you don't allow that book. Get that book banned by complaining about mindsight, and then start the neogi-ocalypse as a verminshape druid. This turns purple if you can get the vermin version.

    Spider, Subteranean, Sword:
    20' land, 20' climb. Impalement (ex): On a single jump+attack roll with legs (1d6) the opponent takes damage from three leg blades is size small or smaller, 4 blades if medium size, 5 blades if large, 6 if huge, all eight if gargantuan or larger. If the spider descends more than 20 feet to make this attack, it adds +1 point of damage to each leg. Poison (ex): bite (1d8): fort save (DC 16) or be injected with 1d6 str damage poison. This pairs very well with leap attack and or battle jump. Also, +6 racial bonus to jump and +12 to spot.

    Wasp, Giant:
    Your absolute best utility flight form.20' land, 60' flying (good). Poison (Ex): Sting (1d6) Injury, Fortitude DC 14, 1d6 Dex. +4 to survival checks for orientation.

    Brine Swimmer:
    20' land, 40' swim. Improved Grab (Ex): Bite (1d6). If hold is established, rake. Rake (Ex): Six legs, attack bonus +5 melee, damage 1d4+1. Snap Turn (Ex): A brine swimmer can change direction quickly once each round as a free action. It can turn 180 degrees without expending any of its swim speed and can even use the run action after executing such a turn. This is your best swimmer. It appears that the rake damage either doesn't add a strength bonus or the +1 is from 1/2 str modifier.


    Spoiler: 6HD
    Show

    Dire Maggot: 40' land, climb 40'. Paralytic Saliva (Ex): Bite (1d8); DC 14 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. Not very good.

    Knell Beetle, Lesser:
    40' land, 10' burrow. Rend (Ex): If a knell beetle hits with both claw (1d10) attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically does an additional 2d10+6 points of damage. Screech (Su): 1/day, a lesser knell beetle can emit a sonic energy cone is 20 feet long, and creatures within take 5d6 points of sonic damage (Reflex DC 17 half). The save DC is Constitution-based. Shake the Earth (Ex): All creature within 5 feet of a knell beetle when it activates this ability must make a DC 17 reflex save or fall prone. The save DC is Strength-based. Trample: Reflex half DC 17. The save DC is Strength-based. Sonic Healing (Su): heal 1 point per 3 points of sonic damage dealt.

    Monstrous Centipede, Huge:
    Poison (Ex): DC 14. 1d6 dex

    Giant Termite, Queen:
    Unless you got a thing for termite drones, don't do it.

    Monstrous Crab, Large:
    Constrict (Ex): A monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check. Improved Grab (Ex): Claw (1d8); +4 racial bonus on grapple checks. amphibious. Strength, AC, grapple size bonuses are finally high enough to make a difference.

    Giant Sun Spider:
    40' land. Improved Grab (ex): Claw (1d4): opponent must be at least one size category Smaller than itself Squeeze (Ex): grappled opponents take damage with both claws, bite (2d6) becomes primary.


    Spoiler: 7HD
    Show

    Stag Beetle, Giant: Bite 4d6. Trample: Reflex half DC 19. The save DC is Strength-based
    Spitting Spider:
    40' land, 20' climb. Tremorsense. Pounce (Ex) If a spitting spider charges, it can make a full attack. Spit Poison (Ex) A spitting spider can spit its venom up to 30 feet as a standard action. This is a ranged touch attack with no range increment. poison (ex) (DC 17, 1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex). Good hunter.

    Monstrous crab:
    40' land, 30' swim. That damn crab. Still useful when you have 7 HD.
    Spoiler: 8HD
    Show

    Monstrous Spider, Huge
    : By now, webs are the most useful ability of this thing. The poison is potent, but it needs to land on an unbuffed fort save, if the enemy isn't outright immune to poison.

    Giant ant lion: If you can get your DM to give you and idea of how long it takes to dig your pit, this form can be useful in sandy environs.


    Spoiler: 10 HD
    Show

    Monstrous Scorpion, Huge: At this point, Size increases benefit scorpion the most of the core bland flavored vermin. Again, a monstrous scorpion with a buffed con score and some grappling feats is super potent. It's poison debuffs your enemy's ability to resist poison. Grab and sting and sting and sting. Constrict (Ex): Claw (1d8) Improved Grab (Ex): Claw. A monstrous scorpion can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better. Poison (Ex): sting 2d4, DC 18, 1d6 Con damage.

    Velvet worm, Giant: 20' land, 10' climb. Glue Strand (ex): A giant velvet worm can shoot a stream of quick drying glue up to 100 feet as a ranged touch attack. Any creature struck by a glue strand is entangled for 2d4 rounds and must make a DC 18 Reflex save or be stuck to the ground unable to move. Flyers make DC 15 save or fall. Poison (ex): Bite, Fortitude DC 18, Initial and Secondary damage 1d4 Con. Tremorsense. Shame about the movement speed, but this guy is one of the game's best non magical anti-flying tools. Unfortunately, you need to figure out what the heck they were doing with the BAB of the glue strand attack.

    Monstrous Toebiter: 20' land, swim 40'. +20 to hide in swamps and marshes. This synergizes well with giant leech and a diversion + fast wildshape. Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 points of temporary Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a living victim. Improved Grab (Ex): If both claw (1d6) attacks on opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself deal normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. A hold automatically hits with a bite (1d8). Toebiter has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use its claws to hold the opponent @ -20 penalty on grapple check, to not be considered grappled. Each successful grapple check made in successive rounds automatically deals bite damage plus poison. Poison (Ex): bite (Fortitude save DC 20) 1d6 points Str damage.


    Spoiler: 12HD
    Show

    Chelicera:
    Ok, not very good unless you're wrestling a non-martial. 30' land/ 30' climb. Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Constitution drain each round that it makes a successful grapple check after establishing a pin. Improved Grab (Ex): Claw: A chelicera has a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks and uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier when grappling. Mimicry (Ex): A chelicera can repeat any noise it hears as a free action. This ability works much like ghost sound (Will DC 17 disbelief), except that the sound is always centered on the chelicera itself. The creature’s favorite tactic is to reproduce garbled or faint speech, causing the potential prey to move closer for a better listen. The save DC is Charisma-based. You already have access to better bloodletters.

    Knell Beetle:
    50, burrow 10'. Useful form.

    Monstrous Centipede, Gargantuan

    Tangle Terror Spider:
    30'/30climb. A great form. DC 20 fort save poison on webs that cause confusion for 12 rounds. Harvest that hallucinogenic material! 8 web blasts per day. Straight up immune to webs.

    Monstrous Crab, Huge: Still ok. Grappling combat is now nullified by freedom of movement.


    Spoiler: 13HD AKA The last Hurrah
    Show

    Leechwalker: 30'land, 20'swim. All-Around Vision(Ex): Can't be Flanked. Immunities: 1/2 damage from bludgeoning. immune to ability damage drain, subual damage and massive damage death. Wounding (Ex): 3 points per wound caused by rake attack. Stacks with self. Heal DC 10 to fix. Improved Grab: Tentacle rake (1d8), if one hits, can initiate free action grapple and blooddrink same round. Blood Drink (Ex): 2d4 points of Constitution drain. Constitution drain + wounding is a tough combo, especially on a compromised enemy (glue strands, confusion, webs).

    Giant Spider, Widowmaker: 30' land, climb 20'. Blood Drain (Ex) 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round a pin is maintained. This ability does not affect elementals, plants, or creatures that lack a Constitution score. Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a widowmaker must hit an opponent of any size with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple, it establishes a hold and can pin the opponent. It can use its blood drain ability against a pinned creature. Steed, can be treated as an animal with an intelligence of 3. Not sure how to use that...Maybe the party ranger can push you to do a trick if you are dominated??? Good skills.


    Spoiler: 15-20 HD
    Show

    Bonespear 15HD: Best vermin form. The only one worth taking. The shame is that you can't get this until 15th level, when it only is useful against weaker enemies. If you are combat powered, this is your final power up, and level 20 is going to be a difficult slog. Great as companions or trained mounts.

    Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan 16HD:
    Skills utility has dropped, particularly in the context of size and level. A slightly bigger bite damage die and slightly increased Poison or web break DC doesn't make this option get better.

    Astral Kraken 20HD:
    fly 60. Improved grab and two supernatural abilities that are good for tying up astral travelers and draining their life. Not a worthwhile investment. Wait...let me check damage output...4 tentacles @ 2d6 and bite at 2d10. I reckon that you would get more utility out of advancing a bonespear...

    Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan 20HD:
    Not good compared to actually good 20HD creatures. Against 12HD creatures, this thing is awesome.

    Siege Crab 20HD:
    Put your allies in your tummy, then teleport. Trained siege crabs would be great invasion forces for an army. Deliver your casters and glass cannons directly behind enemy lines. Trample and DR 15/adamantine are good. This makes for a good steed.


    Spoiler: More than 20HD
    Show

    Monstrous Centipede, Colossal 24HD:

    Monstrous Crab, gargantuan 24 HD:
    Damage output ok. Not great.

    Megapede 32HD:
    80' land, burrow 20', Tremorsense 120', DC 44 poison (2d6 points of Constitution damage and 1d4 points of Dexterity drain).

    Monstrous Spider, Colossal 32HD:

    Siege Crab, Greater 32HD:
    Use them for sieges.
    Century Worm 40HD:
    30' land, burrow 20', swim 10', swallow whole. Eh.

    Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal 40HD:

    Monstrous Crab, colossal 48HD:
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-03-03 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    I do like piles of vermin. Only issue I can see is that the great old master neogi is actually an aberration rather than a vermin. Yes, it's listed as a vermin in the MM II, but Lords of Madness updated it on page 91, and I think it wins the fight due to its nature as a 3.5 source.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I do like piles of vermin. Only issue I can see is that the great old master neogi is actually an aberration rather than a vermin. Yes, it's listed as a vermin in the MM II, but Lords of Madness updated it on page 91, and I think it wins the fight due to its nature as a 3.5 source.
    Many thanks to the resident druidmaester. I'll update that

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    It's not really a creature (it's not even exactly a template), but Fang of Lolth 10 (Song and Silence) gives a character the [Vermin] type without making them mindless. Not really something you can summon or polymorph into, but perhaps it's worth mentioning? Definitely a different breed than the rest of the stuff on the list, of course.
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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    It's not really a creature (it's not even exactly a template), but Fang of Lolth 10 (Song and Silence) gives a character the [Vermin] type without making them mindless. Not really something you can summon or polymorph into, but perhaps it's worth mentioning? Definitely a different breed than the rest of the stuff on the list, of course.
    Thanks. I'll add it to the rubric later. Actually this is quite helpful because I've been wondering if a verminshaped druid would be immune to mind affecting despite having an intelligence score. And the Fang of lolth sets a precedent.

    Right now I'm going through the abilities of each vermin entry to develop a reason to vermin shape at all. Besides large crabs. It looks like a vermin shape build would probably be a grappler who switches from blood drain attacks to poison attacks. Filter off con points so they'll fail poison checks. Also, there is a role for a roguish type druid who uses those racial bonii to climb, move silently, hide, climb, and spot. At least until about 10th level or so.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Right now I'm going through the abilities of each vermin entry to develop a reason to vermin shape at all. Besides large crabs. It looks like a vermin shape build would probably be a grappler who switches from blood drain attacks to poison attacks. Filter off con points so they'll fail poison checks. Also, there is a role for a roguish type druid who uses those racial bonii to climb, move silently, hide, climb, and spot. At least until about 10th level or so.
    There isn't really a good one. The problem is that the only way to reasonably get vermin shape is the vestment, and by the time you can afford that it's way past the prime for vermin shapes.
    All the other ways either lose animal forms, come to late or give up size progression.

    The City-Shape variant could be useful if you're very caster-focused and don't get access to Sandstorm, but it's still a big step down from normal WS.
    You get the ability to change into vermin at 5th and, at 12th level, into swarms. The problem is that you give up plant shape (can get around that with Enhance Wildshape) and size progression - you'll never shift into huge forms, and even getting large has to wait until level 15, so any offensive potential from WS is pretty much crippled and you lose out on Dire Tortoise form (among a ton of other utility forms).
    I don't think there are any vermin, animal or plant-based swarms that make up for that.

    Even MoMF only gets vermin at level 5. By that time he already has animals, humanoids, giants, monstrous humanoids and fey, which vermin forms really can't compete with.
    Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2016-02-18 at 02:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    There isn't really a good one. The problem is that the only way to reasonably get vermin shape is the vestment, and by the time you can afford that it's way past the prime for vermin shapes.
    Other problem with the vestment is that it seemingly only gives monstrous vermin forms, which is highly limiting.

    The City-Shape variant could be useful if you're very caster-focused and don't get access to Sandstorm, but it's still a big step down from normal WS.
    Speaking of sandstorm, I'm not really sure what the problem with wasteland druid is for this. Sure, you need a broad definition of "waste vermin", but it costs relatively little wild shape and comes relatively early. Sure, the animal companion is made somewhat worse, but it's a better deal than most despite that.

    Anyway, yeah, there's a reason I never went into too much depth on vermin forms. Most of the forms are pretty low impact, and the associated cost isn't trivial. If you just had one thing or the other, low impact or high cost, then that'd be one thing, but your naturally gained forms are usually going to be better than vermin forms, to say nothing of the forms you can get if you branch out. Vermin can barely compete with animals, by which I mean they really can't compete with them, and you're lucky if you can pick up some minor utility that is comparable. The bonespear is nice and all, but this is 15th level. Dire tortoise is better in general, and plant forms offer some pretty directly comparable utility. The argument for vermin is just a difficult one to make.

    Edit: Separately, just noticed the verminvine for what may be the first time, and that form is actually interesting. What is up with that verminbond ability? Like, you're naturally attractive to vermin, and that's pretty clear cut, but the other half is weird. As a PC, can you be encountered? If you can be, then does that mean that you sometimes just have giant ants hanging around? That's kinda awesome, especially cause the weirdly summoned ants will probably keep hanging around for a bit. This ability clearly wasn't intended for PC use, but that's just about my favorite kind of ability anyway.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-02-18 at 03:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    There isn't really a good one. The problem is that the only way to reasonably get vermin shape is the vestment, and by the time you can afford that it's way past the prime for vermin shapes.
    All the other ways either lose animal forms, come to late or give up size progression.

    The City-Shape variant could be useful if you're very caster-focused and don't get access to Sandstorm, but it's still a big step down from normal WS.
    You get the ability to change into vermin at 5th and, at 12th level, into swarms. The problem is that you give up plant shape (can get around that with Enhance Wildshape) and size progression - you'll never shift into huge forms, and even getting large has to wait until level 15, so any offensive potential from WS is pretty much crippled and you lose out on Dire Tortoise form (among a ton of other utility forms).
    I don't think there are any vermin, animal or plant-based swarms that make up for that.

    Even MoMF only gets vermin at level 5. By that time he already has animals, humanoids, giants, monstrous humanoids and fey, which vermin forms really can't compete with.
    Yeah, I see that you lose a lot of power by restricting yourself to vermin. But there is utility to be found here. Vermin are definitely most powerful during the first 10 levels, and it is size restrictions that really bone you for wildshaping the most utility out of your situation. But you can act as a potent debuffer, and anti flight tool. So few of the abilities require any supernatural or spell like stuff, so they are great for low magic campaigns. I definitely think the reason that vermin wild shape is so stringently guarded has everything to do with access to poison and acid.

    We'll play with a few builds after I finish going through the abilities and evaluating the abilities holistically. But if your dm is cool with you taking feats that will only be relevant while wildshaped, there are some DC increasing feats as well as some poison spitting in a cone type feats that might see some utility here.

    I agree that you should definitely focus on casting as a druid, as buffs of any sort will definitely help. +4 to con is a +2 modifier to poison. Venomfire for the win, all forms with poison attacks become monstrous if you have access to venomfire.

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    Question Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    What about vermin that are created by
    combining different types of vermin..?

    Such as the arachyura
    - A crab like spider? (Descent)
    http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Arachyura

    Or the bane spider that spits poison.

    Or a lava beetle :)

    I wonder if a druid could
    Wildshape in to something that is
    half spider and half crab?


    I'm sure there are other examples of
    different vermin combinations

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Speaking of sandstorm, I'm not really sure what the problem with wasteland druid is for this. Sure, you need a broad definition of "waste vermin", but it costs relatively little wild shape and comes relatively early. Sure, the animal companion is made somewhat worse, but it's a better deal than most despite that.
    The problem is that you only get vermin forms at 10th level, when they're already mostly obsolete. Even if your DM allows it to just grant vermin forms in general it's still not worth losing a wildshape use.
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Yeah, I see that you lose a lot of power by restricting yourself to vermin. But there is utility to be found here. Vermin are definitely most powerful during the first 10 levels, and it is size restrictions that really bone you for wildshaping the most utility out of your situation. But you can act as a potent debuffer, and anti flight tool. So few of the abilities require any supernatural or spell like stuff, so they are great for low magic campaigns. I definitely think the reason that vermin wild shape is so stringently guarded has everything to do with access to poison and acid.

    We'll play with a few builds after I finish going through the abilities and evaluating the abilities holistically. But if your dm is cool with you taking feats that will only be relevant while wildshaped, there are some DC increasing feats as well as some poison spitting in a cone type feats that might see some utility here.

    I agree that you should definitely focus on casting as a druid, as buffs of any sort will definitely help. +4 to con is a +2 modifier to poison. Venomfire for the win, all forms with poison attacks become monstrous if you have access to venomfire.
    Animals grant poison too, and they usually have better stats to go with it.
    Using spiderform to shoot webs may be nifty at low levels, but it's not worth giving up animal forms or anything above medium size before level 15, and huge size only with Megalodon Empowerment.

    The one thing that makes City-Shape actually stand out is the swarm forms. Sure, a few vermin are useful at low levels (and it's the only option that grants them at 5 without losing animals), but overall they're not all that impressive, with the possible exception of the Sword Spider - 9 attacks at level 5 is pretty nasty - but they're large.
    You can get around that by playing a large race and taking Proportionate Wild Shape (MotW), but you'll have to delay natural spell or get a bonus feat somehow.

    If your DM rules that you actually get swarm immunities (you don't get subtypes by RAW) that immunity to weapons is quite good for a caster.
    A swarms attack is also automatic, so you can cast, move into your enemies space and get the swarm attack in the same round. Some of those can get some pretty neat rider effects, and all of them come with a chance for nausea and automatically force casters to make a pretty hard concentration check which is pretty good.
    All that can make up for large forms if you spend most combat turns casting anyway.

    I've played a swarm druid for a one-shot once, and it worked out pretty well. It was fun too. But i wouldn't pick the ACF if i expected to reach level 15.
    Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2016-02-18 at 06:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    The problem is that you only get vermin forms at 10th level, when they're already mostly obsolete. Even if your DM allows it to just grant vermin forms in general it's still not worth losing a wildshape use.

    Animals grant poison too, and they usually have better stats to go with it.
    Using spiderform to shoot webs may be nifty at low levels, but it's not worth giving up animal forms or anything above medium size before level 15, and huge size only with Megalodon Empowerment.

    The one thing that makes City-Shape actually stand out is the swarm forms. Sure, a few vermin are useful at low levels (and it's the only option that grants them at 5 without losing animals), but overall they're not all that impressive, with the possible exception of the Sword Spider - 9 attacks at level 5 is pretty nasty - but they're large.
    You can get around that by playing a large race and taking Proportionate Wild Shape (MotW), but you'll have to delay natural spell or get a bonus feat somehow.

    If your DM rules that you actually get swarm immunities (you don't get subtypes by RAW) that immunity to weapons is quite good for a caster.
    A swarms attack is also automatic, so you can cast, move into your enemies space and get the swarm attack in the same round. Some of those can get some pretty neat rider effects, and all of them come with a chance for nausea and automatically force casters to make a pretty hard concentration check which is pretty good.
    All that can make up for large forms if you spend most combat turns casting anyway.

    I've played a swarm druid for a one-shot once, and it worked out pretty well. It was fun too. But i wouldn't pick the ACF if i expected to reach level 15.
    I'm doing swarms after I finish up the Vermin Write-up. The utility of the guide is not harmed by the unoptimal nature of the vermin wildshape druid. The guide will help folks looking for tauric or symbiotic templated builds. Or perhaps choosing creatures for a vermin themed animal trainer. Or a cleric with the ability to rebuke vermin.

    As it stands, I'm seeing the possibility of building a druid build based off this that has battle jumping and grappling feats, The ACF that gives you rage (to boost that con score yo!), and so forth. It won't be king of the druids, but it would be a blast. Especially in the mid levels (6-12).

    Another build could focus on spit poison and spells paired with high speed can make for a great scout. Kite your opponents and run/climb until secondary damage becomes a real issue. Another build would focus on becoming fine vermin, which opens up some weird stuff, especially if you knab aberration wildshape and access to supernatural abilities of forms to become a symbiont.

    Knell beetles would be interesting to build around. With their ability to heal sonic damage and the ability for them to be compelled to work together.

    It's not cone of cold chaining, but the index has utility, especially while we're mucking about with the other contests on the site.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    You will also notice that there are two different maggot entries but not a single adult giant fly, or screwfly entries. What the heck wizards?
    There it is, (along with one more maggot)
    Also:
    Argent Spider
    Crystal Beetle
    Fulminating Crab (Zap Crab)
    Gajusian (Sonic) Crawler
    Leech Swarm
    Shimmer Swarm

    Do you need stuff from magazines?
    3rd party (Kingdoms of Kalamar/Ravenloft/Legend of the Five Rings/Tome of Horrors/Warcraft the RPG)?
    Diablo II tabletop (it was published by WotC, thus technically a 1st-party)?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    There it is, (along with one more maggot)
    Also:
    Argent Spider
    Crystal Beetle
    Fulminating Crab (Zap Crab)
    Gajusian (Sonic) Crawler
    Leech Swarm
    Shimmer Swarm

    Do you need stuff from magazines?
    3rd party (Kingdoms of Kalamar/Ravenloft/Legend of the Five Rings/Tome of Horrors/Warcraft the RPG)?
    Diablo II tabletop (it was published by WotC, thus technically a 1st-party)?
    Superb! thanks for the web sources that I didn't know existed. I'll integrate those over the next few days.

    I do not have expedition to castle ravenloft, and thus, cannot access any of the info. Of all the suggested help, this one is the one of most interest to me and for the uses of the optimization hub here at giantitp.

    I personally have no need for dragon magazine material, but for curatorial sake, I'll gladly include references to dragon magazine material for others.

    Again, thanks for the leg work.

    Also, I made some poor formatting decisions when I made this here post. If I plan on growing a swarm subsection as well as some build conjecture, I'm gonna need some more reserved posts. So my plan is to rename this thread as the discussion thread. And after a bit more coalescence of information, repost a new Vermin Desk Reference.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Magazines

    Dragon
    #317: Jungle Spider - Medium, 10 HD, CR 7
    #321: Giant Crayfish - Large, (aquatic), 4 HD, CR 3
    #321: Giant Tick - Small, 3 HD, CR 2
    #343: Wormswarm - Diminutive, 12 HD, CR 10
    #355: Giant Dragonfly - Large, 4 HD, CR 2
    #355: Giant Slug - Huge, 12 HD, CR 7

    Dungeon
    #82: Giant Leech - Small, 1 HD, CR ½
    #84: Large Monstrous Redspotted Centipede - Large, 3 HD, CR 1 ½
    #92: Hive Spider Drone - Tiny, ½ HD, CR 1/6
    #110: Hurrum, Speckled - Tiny, ½ HD, CR 1/6
    #110: Mulworm - Diminutive, 1/4 HD, CR 1/6
    #130: Wormswarm - Diminutive, (swarm), 12 HD, CR 10
    #138: Hastedeath Spider - Diminutive, (swarm), 10 HD, CR 10
    #139: Rhagodessa - Medium, 4 HD, CR 2
    #150: Oil Beetle - Small, 3 HD, CR 2

    Living Greyhawk Journal
    #3: Amedian Gutworm, Larva - Small, 1 HD, CR ½
    #3: Amedian Gutworm, Adult - Medium, 3 HD, CR 2
    #5: Living Crossbow - Tiny, ½ HD, CR 1/4
    #5: Phalanx Vermin - Medium, 2 HD, CR 1

    Knowledge Arcana
    #6: Ember Spawn - Fine, (fire), 1/4 HD, CR 1
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2016-02-21 at 03:58 AM.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    I have a handfull of edits that I need to make on this badboy, and those should occur over the next few weeks.

    But, I definitely have a wildshape based focus on this, and I have to edit that out in favor of also considering summons, handle animal, and templates. A vermin trainer wouldn't be all that bad...I'll get around to it.

    Also, I still need to add more of the web content, as it introduces the first spell like abilities, actually, psi like abilities, which should make for better summons/animal handling options.

    After that, I need to go back through and add the swarms. (Maybe there is some utility for a swarm based caster to enjoy this here reference also)

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    You forgot elven skum on the list *puts on flamer suit*

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    I'm sure there are other examples of different vermin combinations
    Insectile Creature template in Savage Species : for humanoids/monstrous humanoids/giants, grants superfluous limbs, chitine natural armor, additional eyes and tremorsense. Alas, type changes to aberration, but fits in the theme otherwise.
    here is my Signature stuff

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by JyP View Post
    Insectile Creature template in Savage Species : for humanoids/monstrous humanoids/giants, grants superfluous limbs, chitine natural armor, additional eyes and tremorsense. Alas, type changes to aberration, but fits in the theme otherwise.
    Yeah, The more I looked, the more that I noticed that the best vermin themed creatures are all actually aberrations. From the psionic beasties to all of the cool insect human killers in the splats. If it was powerful, it was an aberration instead of a vermin. What this little project does do is highlight the superiority of aberration wildshape.

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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Hairy Spider [MoF]: They're given a level adjustment in Player's Guide to Faerun Web Enhancement. Yes, Hairy Spider is a playable non-ability Intelligence Vermin. They have no listed advancement and no Intelligence-score so I have no clue how you should go about it, but there you go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    I'm fond of making them into an Ooze via that one WE template I don't remember the name of (skitterhaunt?), applying that one (Dungeonscape?) template that gives Oozes intelligence, and then applying a template from the same Dragon article that gave us magic-blooded (arctic-blooded, I think?) to increase the Intelligence up to playable 3+ levels.

    I'm not aware of any way to actually give it intelligence while remaining a Vermin, though, at least not without massive amounts of LA.

    Also, I'm not aware of any templates that change advancement except for IIRC the Dracolich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Fiendish or Celestial give it playable Int, but the LA sucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    The same book also says they can be familiars. Familiars keep all the base creature's statistics unless specified otherwise. Nowhere is becoming a familiar said to change your LA. Ergo, a hairy spider familiar is a valid PC.

    Tome of Blood happens to include some never-updated rules on familiars of death masters: they keep their sentience and personality, but are treated as if their master was two levels lower. That's not particularly deliberating.

    Hell, you could have your master be a 20th-level hexblade with Combat Familiar and gain some major bonuses.
    There you have it, a way to be a vermin PC

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vermin Handbook - A list of all vermin in 3.5

    you're missing Siege Beetle from MM:V.
    The only reason i remember that one is because i occasionally use it on my momf characters.
    Dunno if there is anymore vermin in that book.

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