What if it is the undead that are natural and the living that are aberrations?

[soldersbushwack]

What if it is the undead that are natural and the living that are aberrations?

Consider this, why should death be a natural and proper thing? How is it not abominable and symptomatic of a decayed universe that part of it inevitably slides towards destruction and ultimately complete and total oblivion?

Consider, why do the undead naturally have such hatred for the living? Why do zombies and skeletons seek to kill and destroy life wantonly? I posit that the undead hate the living because the living are unnatural and aberrant abominations.

Consider, why is it possible to convert the living to undeath if undeath is so aberrant and malformed? I posit that this is because undeath is the natural state of things and that life is a cursed affliction.

Consider, why is it that the outer gods are opposed to undeath? I believe it is so because the gods are greedy and want to consume human souls to fuel their power.

Consider, what is magic if not the ultimate expression of the power of the cosmos? Why then should it be so natural for powerful spellcasters to become Liches if undeath is unnatural?

Magic is the expression of the will of the cosmos and undeath is magic's way of healing the unnatural aberration that is life.

I have heard stories and legends and I theorise that life itself and the inevitable slide towards death is the result of a horrible sickness and mundanity from a far off planet located in the far realms. This planet's name? It is the planet earth.

[Fable Wright]

Have you played Dark Souls? If not, you should play Dark Souls. It takes this premise and runs with it to create a functioning and detailed world.

[JoeJ]

How can life be the aberration when without it there would be no undead? Or are you suggesting a way for creatures to be undead that weren't alive first?

[GnomishPride]

That's a really cool idea, and a superb premise for a campaign (setting), except for one minor detail, as JoeJ pointed out. Undead come from the living. Living turn into undead. If there were no living, there would be no undead. Though, if you wanted to, you could refluff it or whatever for that setting, except it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense (in my mind at least). Other than that, it's super cool.

[Fable Wright]

How can life be the aberration when without it there would be no undead? Or are you suggesting a way for creatures to be undead that weren't alive first?

Let's go back to the Dark Souls example, paraphrased, interpreted, and warped a bit to fit the scenario.

In the beginning, it was the Age of Ancients. There were only the eternal mountains, the eternal dragons, and the eternal husks that roamed the world below. Then the First Flame was discovered, and within it, four Lord Souls. This created, for lack of a better word, the first three Gods, and the first Man. These gods warred with the dragons for control of the world, eventually claiming it for their own. While the gods warred, the First Man did what none of the others could and split his soul, the Dark Soul, sharing it amongst the empty husks throughout his world. Thus came the first undead, the race of humanity. Creatures of will and eternity, who would return if killed and be able to craft the world in their image.

In time, when the dragons were slain and the Age of the Gods was in swing, the chief of the gods, Lord Gwyn, saw that their power was fading like the first flame, though the Dark Soul remained eternal. Thus, he sacrificed himself to link the power of the first flame to the Dark Soul, turning the eternal Undead into the living, breathing, ever-so-ephemeral humans. So long as humanity thrived, so too would the gods; but as humanity was burned like a candle, their power began to wane, and the so-called 'Curse of the Undead' came into being. Humans whose spark of life was extinguished, but who had enough of the Dark Soul in them to return to their initial form. Many went hollow on losing the bit of soul they had, becoming the mindless and ravening beasts humanity was before the Dark Soul was first gifted to them. But not all. For the hero of the undead may yet one day overthrow the power of the four Lord Souls, and bring the world to the fourth, promised Age of Darkness. The Age of Man. The world that was always supposed to be.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How can life be the aberration when without it there would be no undead? Or are you suggesting a way for creatures to be undead that weren't alive first?

The nightshades say "hi."

[JoeJ]

The nightshades say "hi."

Hi back. Does it say somewhere that they weren't alive at one time? And if so, what exactly does it mean that they're "undead?"

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hi back. Does it say somewhere that they weren't alive at one time? And if so, what exactly does it mean that they're "undead?"

Nightshades were never living creatures. They're bits of negative energy plane matter that somehow coalesced into sapient, life-hating terrors. They're considered undead because of their lack of discernable, functional, internal anatomy and because they're animated by negative energy. They're not outsiders because they coalesce on the material rather than any of the other planes, includinig the negative energy plane from which their material makeup seeped.

They are rather reliant upon the specifics of the 3.X system but they are an undead that was never alive, so there you go.

[JoeJ]

Nightshades were never living creatures. They're bits of negative energy plane matter that somehow coalesced into sapient, life-hating terrors. They're considered undead because of their lack of discernable, functional, internal anatomy and because they're animated by negative energy. They're not outsiders because they coalesce on the material rather than any of the other planes, includinig the negative energy plane from which their material makeup seeped.

They are rather reliant upon the specifics of the 3.X system but they are an undead that was never alive, so there you go.

Wow. Okay. It seems weird calling them undead, though, if their existence is not in any way an alternative to being dead.

[VoxRationis]

So at best we could call 3.X style nightshades the natural beings. The rest of undead are clearly derived, unoriginal beings which depend on the existence and reproduction of the living in order to exist and reproduce. It's a cute, "everything that is good is bad" idea worthy of the 21st century Internet, but it's ultimately unsupported.

[Khedrac]

They are rather reliant upon the specifics of the 3.X system but they are an undead that was never alive, so there you go.

Please - the come from the Master book of BECMI D&D. My memory says they are actually undead constructs, but I am far from sure on that one.
I think they are created by the immortals of Entropy (Demons) for their own purposes.
They are also more intelligent than any human (19 compared to human 18 max).

They are also a problem to fight as they get a saving throw against being turned - one save reduced the 'Dismiss' result to a 'Turn' result, but they also get a save to ignore 'Turn' results... Oh well, the cleric can try again next round if they are still alive. Oh, don't go into melee with them, their chill aura spoils all consumables within 10' - and yes that renders magical potions inert (but not poisonous).
Add in the Nightwalker's ability to destroy your items (or the Nightcrawler's chance of getting an instant kill when sticking its stinger through your heart) and you may begin to see why the 3.X versions are pale imitations of the originals not worthy of the name. (OK yes, 3.X nightwalkers also get to destroy items - makes them the most feared in 3.X I think.)

[Inevitability]

An interesting thing to note is that living creatures will die when brought to either the positive or negative energy plane, but undead will (technically) survive on both. Given that the PEP and NEP are pretty much the foundation of the cosmos, perhaps it's a sign undead are indeed meant to exist where the living can't?

[Mith]

Another way to view it is that the living are a balance between the Positive Energy and Negative Energy Plane, which is why they die. That is also why there are the Undying (Positive Energy) and the Undead (Negative Energy). So it's more that the "living" are the "offspring" of the Positive and Negative Energy.

[Coidzor]

Life an aberration? Maybe even an abomination?

Kerghan says hello.

http://youtu.be/S9aA71nF__0 (skip to 6:04, major spoilers for Arcanum, no need to watch the second part)

[Millstone85]

Some classic reasons for undeath being bad:
* Undeath is a fate worse than death. Even in a setting where death means total oblivion, it would be a mercy compared to the condition of a walking corpse or a drifting spirit.
* Undeath is more desirable than Hell but doesn't compare to Heaven, both of which exist in the setting without any cynical twist. You are already immortal as a soul and, if you are a good person, you will be granted everlasting youth in a pleasant realm full of other good people. You would only aim for undeath as a way to avoid the Hell you deserve.
* Undeath can only be sustained through the violent exploitation of the living. Other people have to suffer an early death so your existence is prolonged.

There could be a setting in which none of that is true and a virtuous character should consider undeath as a valid transhumanist option. For example, I am not sure if Mavis Dracula can make her Jonathan a vampire but I see little reason why he should decline the offer. No longer being able to enjoy a sunbath would be a real price for him to pay but... Yeah, worth it!

Also, I would advise making the distinction between what is "natural" and what is morally right. Interestingly, default D&D lore depicts the archetypal champion of nature as a "true neutral" character concerned with keeping the balance between fire, air, water, earth, law, chaos, good... and evil, yes. The lower planes and their fiends were "meant to be" while aberrations, even the neutral ones or the LG flumphs, were not. I am bit confused about what a druid should think of the undead, considering the negative energy plane or the Shadowfell. Possibly, they would regard shadow creatures as the true inhabitants of these planes and different from the undead.

[Mith]

From Wikipedia: " All known types of organisms are capable of some degree of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development and homeostasis."

The higher level of undead that raise other undead from those they kill fit that perfectly. Therefore, I suggest that higher level undead are actually a form of living (or existence), along side the undying and the living.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Please - the come from the Master book of BECMI D&D. My memory says they are actually undead constructs, but I am far from sure on that one.
I think they are created by the immortals of Entropy (Demons) for their own purposes.
They are also more intelligent than any human (19 compared to human 18 max).

They are also a problem to fight as they get a saving throw against being turned - one save reduced the 'Dismiss' result to a 'Turn' result, but they also get a save to ignore 'Turn' results... Oh well, the cleric can try again next round if they are still alive. Oh, don't go into melee with them, their chill aura spoils all consumables within 10' - and yes that renders magical potions inert (but not poisonous).
Add in the Nightwalker's ability to destroy your items (or the Nightcrawler's chance of getting an instant kill when sticking its stinger through your heart) and you may begin to see why the 3.X versions are pale imitations of the originals not worthy of the name. (OK yes, 3.X nightwalkers also get to destroy items - makes them the most feared in 3.X I think.)

There have been changes between editions. They're just plain old undead that spontaneously formed now. Even if they hadn't changed, the point remains that their existence is pretty reliant on D&D cosmological elements.

[Kantaki]

My first reaction to this thread was "Tsukiko, is that you?".

I think that is enough to tell what I think of this theory.
It is interesting, but it is more or less a reversal of the usual explanation and sounds a lot like Tsukiko's "the living are mean to me and undead are the opposide. Therefor undead are nice.

The natural state of the universe is change. "Death" - in whatever form it takes - is a part of this. Everything undergoes changes while it exists and then moves on* to make place for something new. The undead are eternal, unchanging, they neither change nor make they place for something new, they are stopping the circle of life. And they force others to be just like them. This is why undead are a aberration.
Just to give the obvious counterargument.

*However that may look in that part of the multiverse.

[Millstone85]

Come to think of it, D&D and many other fantasy settings suppose that the divine realms existed before the creation of the mortal world. Thus, death was invented by immortals. Yeah, I could see the OP's idea working. Undeath is rampant because it is an echo of the preternatural order.

In fact, isn't it the whole point of that Blood of Vol cult on Eberron?

Everything undergoes changes while it exists and then moves on* to make place for something new.

*However that may look in that part of the multiverse.

That's a good point to bring up in the material plane, where characters are usually stuck on a planet with limited resources just like real people right now. Undeath and other forms of immortality can be portrayed as an ecological menace there.

But when that part of the multiverse is the afterlife, I think it looks rather ridiculous. Does a character's afterdeath lead their soul to the afterafterlife? Or is the afterlife full of souls in denial of their own death, to be followed by acceptance and oblivion?

I know that D&D 4e did the former and I remember some of Rich Burlew's comments suggesting the latter about OotS. It is still weird to me that someone would imagine a setting with a faked out afterlife or an afterlife that doesn't actually vanquish death. Just don't write an afterlife then.

[The Grue]

[Durzan]

^Thats a funny comic, lol.

This is actually a cool theory. Too bad its got quite a few holes in it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

From Wikipedia: " All known types of organisms are capable of some degree of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development and homeostasis."

The higher level of undead that raise other undead from those they kill fit that perfectly. Therefore, I suggest that higher level undead are actually a form of living (or existence), along side the undying and the living.

Not technically, viruses also transform living cells into more of them but it's not considered true reproduction.

[Zaydos]

On the nightshades topic. Nightshades are extraplanar in the Monster Manual meaning they don't form on the Prime. They also don't state how they came to be in the monster manual. So everything is just head canon explanations. My guess, though, is that they're undead because they wanted them affected by positive/negative effects like undead and it was simpler than creating a special quality and because Core made a lot of mechanics first fluff second choices (Conjuration having the Creation subschool, despite Evocation being the one that creates things from nothing, note that sans Creation subschool Conjuration doesn't have 2 spells/level in Core).

However there are undead in Libris Mortis which form naturally in tombs out of tomb dust. Of course they need magic, or undead activity to bleed life into them.

It could be a cool idea. Create a 'natural' undead state for human(oid)s and play with it being an eternity the gods have denied them. Though the initial theory has some big holes not poked at yet. For example it is extremely easy to turn something into an aberrant or malformed form, look at cancer or a broken bone, it actually requires very precise situations for that not to happen so adding external stimuli tends towards malformed not towards proper. Also the outer gods in most RPG settings are pro undead. It's the normal gods, i.e. the ones that don't eat souls and want to destroy the multiverse, that dislike them.

Actually thinking on the diseased universe bit look at a body. In its natural state your cells are always going towards death, new ones are formed but they are going towards death, the only cells that aren't are cancerous ones. So... undead would be universe cancer.

[Inevitability]

How can life be the aberration when without it there would be no undead? Or are you suggesting a way for creatures to be undead that weren't alive first?

If you're saying that something that came after something else can't possibly be 'natural', I must object. Before life, there is nonexistence. Are you saying nonexistence is natural and life is aberrant?

[ThinkMinty]

Interesting hypothesis. I'd ask aberration from what?

The living are animated by positive energy. The unliving are animated by negative energy. I'd say they have a duality going on, where that the living die means that death is a part of life, and that the unliving once lived, they are some kind of extra step in the life cycle of living things. They exist as separate entities, and in contrast to each-other.

Also, the comic earlier was fun.

[Millstone85]

*comic*

I was thinking about that one. Very appropriate.

Not technically, viruses also transform living cells into more of them but it's not considered true reproduction.

Indeed it is not. But personally I think it should be.

In its natural state your cells are always going towards death, new ones are formed but they are going towards death, the only cells that aren't are cancerous ones.

Stem cells and germ cells might also qualify as immortal.

Before life, there is nonexistence. Are you saying nonexistence is natural and life is aberrant?

That is more or less the point of view of the Auditors of Reality in the Discworld novels.

They do not consider themselves to be a form of life, but rather the capacity of the Universe to observe itself into existence. If a tree falls in a forest, they are around to hear it, because otherwise there would be no sound and no tree either. They are also the ultimate celestial bureaucracy, keeping files about everything down to individual subatomic particles.

They have a deep hatred toward all living organisms, which they find overcomplicated and messy. Sentient beings and their magic are especially offensive. Technically, the Auditors could forget that life exist and, just like that, the Universe would once again be a clean and tidy realm of rocks and burning gas. But that would be completely against the rules and they would never go completely against the rules. However, the Auditors are not above finding loopholes to tip the balance toward mass extinction.

[goto124]

From a god's point of view, death ensures the earth (material plane?) doesn't get overcrowded with creatures bustling one another for space, food, or energy.

From a writer's point of view, undead are creepy, evil-appearing, and alright to kill because they're supposed to be already dead.

If undead hurt the living in some way... wait, animals eat other animals! Including us humans! Aaaaahhhhh!

Not technically, viruses also transform living cells into more of them but it's not considered true reproduction.

Viruses are undead! Viruses are vampires and zombies!

[Kantaki]

Viruses are undead! Viruses are vampires and zombies!

I think you got that wrong. It's the other way around. Not that that makes it any better...

[JoeJ]

If you're saying that something that came after something else can't possibly be 'natural', I must object. Before life, there is nonexistence. Are you saying nonexistence is natural and life is aberrant?

No, I'm asking how a thing that can only come from something aberrant can be natural.

[Coidzor]

If you're saying that something that came after something else can't possibly be 'natural', I must object. Before life, there is nonexistence. Are you saying nonexistence is natural and life is aberrant?

Kerghan says hello. Again.

But being dependent on an aberration for existence does weaken the argument that the dependent thing is wholly natural.