[5E] Zerg Monster Class

[DreamingGod05]

Long story short, a species of Zerg-esque creatures (inspiration taken from Tyranid, and EVOLVE's monsters also) populate my campaign world. They are sentient and have an alliance with one of the drow cultures (the game has 3 dark elf cultures in and around the play area).

JPlayah, over on these forums, made a Zerg class for DnD 3.5. I run DnD 5e, so I've begun to convert it over to 5e, and I'd like some input on a few decisions that have come up.

First off, here's a link to the google docs. (Cultural info included)

Now. One of the things I am debating is Extra Attack class feature. It's a very 'build it yourself' monster class, but it's not exactly a spell caster, and most non-spell caster classes get the Extra Attack feature. However, I could make it a Mutation. This, however, feels to me like a 'feat tax' situation for the class, and I am wary of it. This, however, depends on if I decide to add sub-classes.

Which is the real stickler here. The Zerg, and my race, do conceptually have 'castes' like many insects, but I feel the ever-shifting, evolving nature I want to evoke speaks against having set sub-classes. However, this may come mostly from my inability to come up with some good sub-classes for them. (Any ideas?) more than from a legitimate reason to not have them. Also, I do not think any 5E class is without a subtype/archetype to there name.

In closing, most of this is not converted over, but enough is where I think I can show my initial thoughts to others and gather some ideas, so I don't have to rewrite the entire thing at a later stage.

There is also a prestige class to represent the Zerg Queen/Kerrigan type character, called the Swarmlord, based off of Lix Lorn's Swarmlord for 3.5.

Link to JPlayah's 3.5 version of the class: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...g-racial-class
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...racter-options

[Flashy]

Honestly you should probably make the subclasses various types of zerg. I'm not that well up on my Starcraft lore, but as far as I'm aware it's not like a zergling ever stops being a zergling and becomes a hydralisk, or vice versa. Make it a 2nd or 3rd level subclass choice and be done. The rest of it is hard to comment on, since as you pointed out it mostly hasn't been converted over from 3.5.

[DreamingGod05]

I am thinking of making three Archetypes (Castes? Genus? Phenotype?) base, one for stalking, one for pure physical smash, and a psionic half-caster?

[Scaileanna]

in lore and such the only zerg that is "psionic" is kerrigan atleast speaking of powers and such, if this class is to represent being a base zerg then i would suggest for archetypes changeling(sneaky,disguise breed), ultralisk(incredibly tanky and some damage) and hydralisk(ranged,dps/high damage dealer)

[DreamingGod05]

It's more based off the Primal zerg, than the Swarm, exactly. So I'm not trying to do exact Zerg types from the RTS, I'm looking more for... types.
As for psychic, all the zerg are. The Cerebrate were powerful psionics, and the Overmind was, so are all the Primal zerg. So I feel comfortable giving them a 1/3rd Psionic caster, so you can make a Defiler or Corruptor type monster. (Canonically, the Overlords are all psychic, they use TK to fly, and telepathy to extend control).

If Starcraft represents high tech for tool-using species, with guns and spaceships, it also shows high 'tech' for zerg, highly specialized and put to one mind. The Zerg on a DnD world would be less centralized and evolutionary advanced. Closer to the Primals than to the Swarm, and definitely more individualistic, there are more Zagara, Stukovs, Kerrigans and Dehaka in this zerg species than portrayed in the game.

My working Archetypes are... Behemoth, Lurker, and Swarm-mind. The last has name pending, since I am unsure as of right now. xD

[Scaileanna]

It's more based off the Primal zerg, than the Swarm, exactly.
As for psychic, all the zerg are. The Cerebrate were powerful psionics, and the Overmind was, so are all the Primal zerg. So I feel comfortable giving them a 1/3rd Psionic caster, so you can make a Defiler or Corruptor type monster. (Canonically, the Overlords are all psychic, they use TK to fly, and telepathy to extend control).

power wise only kerrigan had anything because she was born with it, zerg only have telepathy,the ability to detect psionics and the overlord's minor TK but making a caster balances out the class's otherwise physical combat focus i guess

[khadgar567]

Can I make a small request please? Can you change shield plate and arm blade mutations to use one arm as a option so we can make sword and board zerg fighters

[DreamingGod05]

Sword arm should be one arm, and not a pair, like claws. As for shield.... this is a good thing ,yes. A Zerg 'Knight' with Sword arm, Shield arm and heavy carapace sounds awesome.

[khadgar567]

Sword arm should be one arm, and not a pair, like claws. As for shield.... this is a good thing ,yes. A Zerg 'Knight' with Sword arm, Shield arm and heavy carapace sounds awesome.

don't forget to add spike launcher for range combat by the way is there any rule for assimilated elven princess

[DreamingGod05]

One of my player's will be playing an Assimilated Zerg, and so far, my current rules is to Multiclass into the class, and disallow Mutating out of Arms/Legs, and not getting a free bite attack. If in play anything else comes up, I'll add rules for it.

[khadgar567]

One of my player's will be playing an Assimilated Zerg, and so far, my current rules is to Multiclass into the class, and disallow Mutating out of Arms/Legs, and not getting a free bite attack. If in play anything else comes up, I'll add rules for it.

so your idea is lets say aestas the elven princess multiclass between warlock and zerg same time gaining powers from each side same time

[DreamingGod05]

No. Normal multiclassing rules, pick which class you gain levels in. I haven't come up with the multiclass prerequisites (probably con 13, strength 11 or something) but, works as any multiclass otherwise. My other thought was to make an Assimilated Zerg prestige class, but... I don't think that works as well.

[Amnoriath]

While I haven't fully assessed your class even if your race had 30 speed it would be underpowered. Telepathy while interesting and useful in niche situations it doesn't give it any sort of crunch. The aberration type while may allow to ignore some spells again doesn't give any sort mechanical benefit to use. On top of this is that you need the class just so you can move at a normal speed which should be a sign on how non-functional this race is.
Ultimately your flavor and lore is great(being brought from Starcraft) but you are pinning all that flavor in mechanics on to the class and nothing for the race. While this may be for a certain campaign it severely limits the choice both for optimization and stifles character creation for your PC's.

[DreamingGod05]

While I don't disagree, and I I will agree it is stifling for the race; there is a reason I called it a Monster Class. It would be like saying the Balor racial for a Balor Monster Class needed the aforementioned class to be a Balor. This is true, and intended.

However, I think the race SHOULD have some more stuff on it. What suggestion do you have? Give them a quadruped body, or perhaps make their subrace as body types? (Serpentine, Quadruped, Biped?) or another racial ability?

[Amnoriath]

While I don't disagree, and I I will agree it is stifling for the race; there is a reason I called it a Monster Class. It would be like saying the Balor racial for a Balor Monster Class needed the aforementioned class to be a Balor. This is true, and intended.

However, I think the race SHOULD have some more stuff on it. What suggestion do you have? Give them a quadruped body, or perhaps make their subrace as body types? (Serpentine, Quadruped, Biped?) or another racial ability?

1. If this was intended to be a monster than why did you format it to be a character race?
2. Body types probably would specialize them too earlier with the exception of Biped but as I said even if they had the base speed it wouldn't be enough. I think to some degree you need to give a set of mutation choices but may be spread it out like the racial spell casting.

[DreamingGod05]

Monster class.

They are a class, for a monster. So if a player wants to play a monster they can do so at any level.

Now, an extra two mutation points would be interesting... I may think on that. It would, technically, pay for some limbs...

Mutation Master. The zerg are masters of Mutation, and all mature Zerg start down their path to perfection early. A zerg has two Mutation points that can only be spent on 1 point mutations at 1st level. They gain an extra point at 5th, and 11th level. Those can be spent on any Mutation.

[Scaileanna]

Monster class.
They are a class, for a monster. So if a player wants to play a monster they can do so at any level.
.

to be fair a monster class generally means you are the monster you don't pick your race it's set as the creature your class is so that last sentence contradicts the prior ones as well as you can't multiclass into or as the class but this is the zerg and they do assimilate other beings like kerrigan and such

[DreamingGod05]

Which, I concede, is true. It's at a strange place. If I wanted to clean it up, I'd make Assimilation a disease that ended with the creature gaining a zerg subtype, allowing you to take the class.

[GorinichSerpant]

Can a zerg player not take any levels in zerg-the-class? Technically they could, but how would that be addressed in character? Would it mean that the character is the runt of the litter so to speak, or maybe that they have grown specifically to emulate races so that they can act as a diplomat?

[JPlayah]

This looks really cool, and I'm impressed with how far you're taking my idea in terms of making it work in 5e. You're welcome to draw from the list of zerg feats and things I made as well, if you haven't done so already. I'll provide a link to the thread if you need it.

Also, feedback on the alignment section (which is currently blank in your document). It's my belief that zerg can be of any alignment, but they tend more towards chaotic alignments. Zerg prefer to rule by force and dominance, much like wolves do. However, their specific attitudes on what it means to be a good ruler vary, just as their personalities do. Some zerg leaders rule with an iron fist, expecting perfect obedience from their subordinates (Kerrigan and Zagara are good examples of this). Others encourage camaraderie and merely prevent their hives from falling into disorder. Most zerg leaders fall somewhere between these two extremes.

Note that zerg tend to dislike being rigidly controlled unless they have deep personal faith in their leaders.

[DreamingGod05]

Thank you, JPlayah, good to know you think it looks good.

On Alignment, I wasn't sure on how to write the section for it, but you bring up some very good points. They are, from a humans perspective, very Chaotic, with their bits of Law about being part of the Swarm. But yeah, I'd say they tend towards Chaotic Neutral, but can as easily go good or evil.

As for taking levels in anything other than zerg, they would be a runt, one who does not evolve with the Essence. It would be pretty unnatural, and note worthy, yes. I could see a zerg that took erg levels to evolve to how they want to be, then started learning other things.

[PotatoGolem]

This is a really cool idea, but it really needs to be fully updated to 5e before it needs more added. Several mutations don't do anything because they give bonuses to skills that don't exist anymore, many give flat bonuses, which really isn't a thing in 5e, and there's a few references to feats (which again don't work anymore). Plus, AFAIK, the 3.5 rule that you can make one attack per natural weapon is gone, so as it currently sits there's no reason to evolve more than one weapon.

[DreamingGod05]

I haven't completely updated the Mutation list, because I want to get the subclasses (Strains) finished first. I update the Mutations from time to time, but I'll get to that last, as well as adding new ones.

[DreamingGod05]

A little bit of work done here. I got the first Zerg Strain completed, the Overseer. It turned it into a Psionic Buffer/Support for the Swarm.

THE OVERSEER
The zerg are a naturally psionic species, each of them connected to hive mind to in which they anchor their consciousness. The Overseers take the natural psionic ability of their species and take it to a whole other level. With the boosted psionic abilities the Overseers generally tend to work closely with a Hive Queen, extending her influence, or traveling the world, feeding back their experience to the queen. In addition to that, the boosted telepathic abilities allow the Overseer to support zerg (and others hooked into their limited Hive Nexus) during battle.

PSIONICS
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to use psionic powers. See the Psionic Disciplines section of the general rules of using powers.
Talents. You learn the two talents of your choice. You learn an additional talent of your choice at 7th level.
Psi Points. The Overseer Psionics table shows how many psi points you have to use your discipline effects. The table also shows your psi limit. You regain all expended psi points when you finish a long rest.
Disciplines Known. You know two disciplines of your choice.
The Disciplines Known column of the Overseer Psionics table shows when you learn more disciplines. You must be at least 13th level to learn a greater discipline.
In addition, whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one discipline you know with a different one of your choice. You can replace a lesser discipline with a greater discipline, but only if you are at least 13th level.
Psionics Ability. Intelligence is your psionic ability for your psionic disciplines. You use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a psionic discipline or when making an attack roll with one.

HIVE NEXUS
At 3rd level, the Overseer’s telepathy is empowered and extended beyond the rudimentary kind that their brethren have. With this ability the Zerg’s natural telepathic range now extends to 80 feet, and any friendly units that you wish to include, and are willing too, can be apart of your Hive Nexus. In a Hive Nexus participants can communicate freely with telepathy. In addition, as a bonus action, once per long rest an Overseer can charge the Hive Nexus, giving all participants 1d10 + Intelligence modifier temporary HP. This increases to 2d10 + Intelligence at 11th level. You also gain another daily use of it at 11th, and 16th levels.

SWARM ASSAULT
Beginning at 7th level, when you damage an enemy with a discipline, an ally within your Hive Nexus can take a single attack against that same unit on your turn.

MANY MINDS, GREATER THAN ONE
At 11th level, the mental fortitude of the Hive Nexus grant all units within the Hive Nexus Resistance to Psychic damage, and advantage on rolls against charmed, and frightened conditions.

PERFECTION OF MIND AND BODY
At 15th level, when you use a discipline or talent, you can make a single attack as a bonus action.

DOMINATION OF THE SWARM
At 18th level, you may spend your bonus action to force one creature who is within range of your telepathy to succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC equal to 8 + your Intelligence modifier + your proficiency bonus, or make an attack against a creature of your choice.
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Thoughts, comments, criticism?

[JPlayah]

My only possible concern about archetypes, body types, etc. is that it might pigeonhole a zerg character and make certain mutations impossible that would otherwise be useful or sensible. The most important thing to remember is that each zerg is always changing, always growing, and always adapting. New limbs happen. Body parts change. If you can keep this in mind and find ways to create archetypes which don't interfere too much with a character's ability to evolve and mutate, I think you'll do fine. What might be cool is a set of archetypes which allow a character to specialize in something. Perhaps certain kinds of mutations might become more powerful at the cost of something else, for example. I'm only concerned about players being forced down a path where choosing X or gaining X is never an option because they HAD to take some archetype.

Overseer looks really cool, by the way. It's a nice way to merge psionics into the zerg. Not sure if Intelligence is the right ability score for a psionic zerg, though. Still, your archetype, your call.

[JPlayah]

This is a really cool idea, but it really needs to be fully updated to 5e before it needs more added. Several mutations don't do anything because they give bonuses to skills that don't exist anymore, many give flat bonuses, which really isn't a thing in 5e, and there's a few references to feats (which again don't work anymore). Plus, AFAIK, the 3.5 rule that you can make one attack per natural weapon is gone, so as it currently sits there's no reason to evolve more than one weapon.

This shouldn't be too big of an issue if we just stick with original intent of each mutation. For example, the first time you take the wings mutation, you can jump significantly better (should amount to an extra 3 to 5 feet vertical height). Climbing hooks obviously help you climb better. Look at how 5e implements this and rewrite the mutation accordingly. Also, for multiple attacks, use whatever characters normally use to get off-hand attacks (in 3.5, it's the two-weapon fighting feat, or the multiweapon fighting feat for monsters). If that isn't around anymore, I think there's some kind of extra attack option in 5e. I'm not a 5e expert, but I am a 3.5 expert (and I wrote the 3.5 zerg stuff in the first place), so I'm willing to help out in any cases where the intent of a mutation isn't clear, or there's no clear way to make it work in 5e.

[DreamingGod05]

I agree, my biggest concern for the Strains is forcing a Zerg to go a certain body type. I don't want to pdigeon hole the Zerg. It's making starting the other two rather... difficult. My current thought is to make each strain not give PHYSICAL kind of abilities, but rather knowledge based ones, fluffed as a kind of genetic knowledge or instinct. And Overseers gonna oversee, a Brute's gotta smash. Ect.

[DreamingGod05]

Alright, so been working on the class. Lots of mutation's done, and I think I have some niche for the two Strains to fill (Brute will be Barbarian-lite, and Lurker will work on ambush and going first in a turn, so... rogue-lite). I'm not sure how to do creep. In JPlayah's system creep gives extra HP when resting on it. 5E heals you to full on a long rest. So I'm not sure what to replace it with, or if a movement speed increase is worth it. (I think it needs some kind of buff, it is a mutation you buy.)

[JPlayah]

Alright, so been working on the class. Lots of mutation's done, and I think I have some niche for the two Strains to fill (Brute will be Barbarian-lite, and Lurker will work on ambush and going first in a turn, so... rogue-lite). I'm not sure how to do creep. In JPlayah's system creep gives extra HP when resting on it. 5E heals you to full on a long rest. So I'm not sure what to replace it with, or if a movement speed increase is worth it. (I think it needs some kind of buff, it is a mutation you buy.)

Assuming ability damage is still a thing in 5e, you could have creep heal additional ability damage when resting on it, or even have it remove negative levels. If hit points are no longer an issue, status conditions are probably next on the list. If you're looking for in-combat benefits, bonuses on saving throws (perhaps having an advantage on all saving throws while on creep) could be a thing as well. Or you could provide benefits to initiative or attack rolls. Just give the zerg something nice that incentivizes them to fight and rest on creep when possible.

For those who haven't seen it, this right here is a link to the main page of zerg stuff I wrote, including lots of feats and things which give relevance to creep in a campaign setting. If you're looking to get back to the general theme of creep, it's essentially a nutrient transfer network for the zerg, and is about as important to the zerg as honeycomb is to bees. It feeds zerg structures (this is canon), and it also makes zerg move faster while on it (as evidenced by the StarCraft games). Creep is zerg turf in every sense of the word, and they absolutely need it to set up a permanent residence. It's so valuable to the zerg that even the temporary creep tumors produced by the mutation are considered to be a major advantage over sleeping on hard ground.

[JPlayah]

I agree, my biggest concern for the Strains is forcing a Zerg to go a certain body type. I don't want to pdigeon hole the Zerg. It's making starting the other two rather... difficult. My current thought is to make each strain not give PHYSICAL kind of abilities, but rather knowledge based ones, fluffed as a kind of genetic knowledge or instinct. And Overseers gonna oversee, a Brute's gotta smash. Ect.

One possible option would be to make certain existing mutations slightly stronger for members of the archetypes. For example, a Brute's natural armor mutations might be 50% stronger, or its weapons might do more damage. An Overseer could gain similar benefits on mutations that provide utility (more range, or more uses per day, or something along those lines). This gives players options to specialize their characters if they want them to be particularly good at certain tasks. You could also write new mutations which can only be taken by a zerg character with a specific archetype.