The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

[martianmister]

If several people have asked about it over the years, it should be included, IMO. And I've seen several people ask about a random button over the years

They didn't ask about it, they wanted someone to make one.

[Jasdoif]

In fact I propose a new section for site functionality. I can think of several quotes that would fit there, including the new one about pdf size.

You...want to propose a new section for site functionality, as place for a quote about...the size of PDFs, which aren't on the site?

[Kish]

I think possibly Ron is thinking of a new section for "technical stuff."

(Not co-endorsing, merely speculating about reasoning.)

[Gwynfrid]

What's wrong with including comments about site functionality? It's a topic that comes up all the time.

In fact I propose a new section for site functionality. I can think of several quotes that would fit there, including the new one about pdf size.

There's nothing wrong about it, except that it's not about the comic, so it doesn't belong in the Index, per rule B3: "This excludes GiTP forum rules, updates, or general information". This quote falls under "GiTP general information", which excludes it under that rule. We could of course expand the Index scope to cover matters loosely related to the comic. This would be a slight rewrite of rule B3.

In contrast, the matter of pdf size directly involves the comic : It's useful information about one of the formats the comic is sold under.

[Emanick]

They didn't ask about it, they wanted someone to make one.

Yeah, that's what I meant - asking about whether there could/ever would be a Random button.

[Kalmegil]

The reason for not having a random button is directly related to the comic and the Giant's vision of it. The quote should be added.

[Ron Miel]

You...want to propose a new section for site functionality, as place for a quote about...the size of PDFs, which aren't on the site?

My mistake. I thought they could be purchased and downloaded from the site. Yeah, "technical stuff" might be a better title.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Do you think the presence of the "Latest Additions" table is clear enough, though? If you think it'd be helpful for it to be more obvious in some fashion, we could certainly consider making it more obvious.

No, it's pretty prominent, I just hadn't looked at the first post properly in quite a while. I'm not sure how you could draw more attention to it outside the initial post itself. If it were in its own post it would be easier to link to and point to, but it would probably get overlooked just as easily.

[Pyrous]

Do you think the presence of the "Latest Additions" table is clear enough, though? If you think it'd be helpful for it to be more obvious in some fashion, we could certainly consider making it more obvious.

It could be more apparent if it were directly below the thanks or the incredibly-relevant-out-of-context Giant quote.

It would obscure the "It's intended as a research aid" bit, though...

[Jasdoif]

OK, looks like the random button quote is getting in, so we've got two quotes on the tentative list now:

Why Some PDFs are Larger than Others High resolution raster artwork, mostly.	#1029	03/22/2016	Tentative, appears will be included without vote.
On the Absence of a Random Comic Button "...I don't think it's really that good of an idea considering how tightly connected the comic is from one strip to the next."	#984	05/11/2015	Tentative, appears will be included without vote.

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And the proposals for deletion?

Doesn't look like your proposals have much traction, a lot of people think the quotes should remain included.

The reason for not having a random button is directly related to the comic and the Giant's vision of it. The quote should be added.

I can certainly see the case where the quote is about how the site navigation serves to present the comic, which I figure is at least as relevant to the comic as book publishing is; and "book publishing" is specifically called out as potentially valid under Rule B2.

Yeah, "technical stuff" might be a better title.

Seems pretty vague....Maybe I can get a better sense of what the categorization would be with more examples. What are the other quotes you think would should go into such a section?

[Peelee]

I'm not suggesting this to be added to the Index, but just figured it was worth mentioning:

I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

Unless there are rather large points of contention in the main comic or the PDFs what're gonna be released, looks like this thread is gonna be runnin' on fumes for a while.

[Ron Miel]

Doesn't look like your proposals have much traction, a lot of people think the quotes should remain included.

I wouldn't say that. By my count there are five who explicitly favour deletion vs three who explicitly oppose it, and one other who says keep 1 delete 1. Isn't that enough to put it to a vote?

Seems pretty vague....Maybe I can get a better sense of what the categorization would be with more examples. What are the other quotes you think would should go into such a section?

Quotes that refer to the technical details of art production. Things that are required by his computer set up rather than artistic choices. Issues about putting the process of putting the art on the website.

here are some that I think could go in the proposed new section

• The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently
  
• Art Colors can Change
  Whether because the Giant doesn't like the old color, or because his system doesn't.
  
• On Changing Font Style
  The failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same.
  
• Why Book Corrections Don't Get to the Online Strip
  Undoing the differences between online and book versions of strips would be inefficient.
  
• The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art

[Jasdoif]

I wouldn't say that. By my count there are five who explicitly favour deletion vs three who explicitly oppose it, and one other who says keep 1 delete 1. Isn't that enough to put it to a vote?

Well let me count again....

• Ron Miel, Peelee, martianmister and Pyrous support removing both.
• Kalmegil, Kish, Joerg and 137ben support keeping both.
• littlebum2002 supports removing the Munchkin quote and keeping the computer game quote.
• LeSwordfish and Markozeta support combining the two quotes into one entry, which requires keeping both.

So the Munchkin quote has 5 for removing and 6 for keeping; while the computer game quote has 4 for removing and 7 for keeping.

[Ron Miel]

Well let me count again....

• Ron Miel, Peelee, martianmister and Pyrous support removing both.

I believe that Keltest's post is supporting removal, too.


BTW, I've never understood the bureaucracy of this thread, what circumstances actually require a vote?

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't read the forum anymore

How come he don't want us? ;_;

[Keltest]

I believe that Keltest's post is supporting removal, too.


BTW, I've never understood the bureaucracy of this thread, what circumstances actually require a vote?

You believe correctly. Vacuum ALL the clutter!

[Jasdoif]

I believe that Keltest's post is supporting removal, too.

The hefty qualifier makes me disagree with counting it as such...and if I did count it as supporting removing them, I'd need to count Throknor's direct rebuttal as supporting keeping them; so it hardly matters.

...I see now that Keltest has posted clarification about the prior post, though. So be it: The Munchkin quote has 6 for removing and 7 for keeping; while the computer game quote has 5 for removing and 8 for keeping.

BTW, I've never understood the bureaucracy of this thread, what circumstances actually require a vote?

As the thread stands right now, there are three cases where a vote is called for:

• A quote in an update cycle has received support from less than two-thirds, but at least one-third, of the posts discussing it; and I receive two PMs requesting that a vote be called on the quote to ensure the consensus is to include the quote.
• I reorganize the Index and there are objections (Rule F1).
• I decide a vote on something not delineated in the rules is warranted. (This includes any removal of quotes, since we have no Index rules on the matter and the general thread curation rules explicitly forbid me from making executive decisions on what posts are or are not included.

[littlebum2002]

I think this thread is going to be much less busy in the future. I've been noticing that Rich has been commenting less and less in the forums, and he just confirmed that he doesn't really read them anymore

[Peelee]

BTW, I've never understood the bureaucracy of this thread, what circumstances actually require a vote?

How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?

[Gwynfrid]

Well let me count again....

• Ron Miel, Peelee, martianmister and Pyrous support removing both.
• Kalmegil, Kish, Joerg and 137ben support keeping both.
• littlebum2002 supports removing the Munchkin quote and keeping the computer game quote.
• LeSwordfish and Markozeta support combining the two quotes into one entry, which requires keeping both.

So the Munchkin quote has 5 for removing and 6 for keeping; while the computer game quote has 4 for removing and 7 for keeping.

Count me on the keeper side. These quotes might be unimportant in the eyes of many, but they aren't redundant, and they are relevant to the comic (at least, not much less relevant than the quote about the random button). I see no reason for removal.

[SaintRidley]

As always, you can count me on the side of keeping things in the index.

And eh, I don't see this thread running on fumes too much. This seems to be something he's been doing a while, but he still winds up closing threads and definitively settling the question in the process on an irregular basis regardless.

[Throknor]

The three weeks no one chimed in wasn't a hint? Keep & Keep.

[Zherog]

Count me on the keeper side. These quotes might be unimportant in the eyes of many, but they aren't redundant, and they are relevant to the comic (at least, not much less relevant than the quote about the random button). I see no reason for removal.

This covers my position quite well on the subject.

[Jasdoif]

OK, the two month period for the next update cycle ends on...Friday, it looks like, since the last normal update was March 13; I somehow doubt we're going to get four more quotes before then.

Tentative list is still:

Why Some PDFs are Larger than Others High resolution raster artwork, mostly.	#1029	03/22/2016	Tentative, appears will be included without vote.
On the Absence of a Random Comic Button "...I don't think it's really that good of an idea considering how tightly connected the comic is from one strip to the next."	#984	05/11/2015	Tentative, appears will be included without vote.

---

Well let me count again....

• Ron Miel, Peelee, martianmister and Pyrous support removing both.
• Kalmegil, Kish, Joerg and 137ben support keeping both.
• littlebum2002 supports removing the Munchkin quote and keeping the computer game quote.
• LeSwordfish and Markozeta support combining the two quotes into one entry, which requires keeping both.

So the Munchkin quote has 5 for removing and 6 for keeping; while the computer game quote has 4 for removing and 7 for keeping.

....And if I did count it as supporting removing them, I'd need to count Throknor's direct rebuttal as supporting keeping them; so it hardly matters.

...I see now that Keltest has posted clarification about the prior post, though. So be it: The Munchkin quote has 6 for removing and 7 for keeping; while the computer game quote has 5 for removing and 8 for keeping.

Count me on the keeper side. These quotes might be unimportant in the eyes of many, but they aren't redundant, and they are relevant to the comic (at least, not much less relevant than the quote about the random button). I see no reason for removal.

As always, you can count me on the side of keeping things in the index.

This covers my position quite well on the subject.

So the Munchkin quote has 6 for removing and 10 for keeping, while the computer game quote has 5 for removing and 11 for keeping....I'm not seeing much cause to hold a vote on their removal.

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Yeah, "technical stuff" might be a better title.

Maybe I can get a better sense of what the categorization would be with more examples. What are the other quotes you think would should go into such a section?

Quotes that refer to the technical details of art production. Things that are required by his computer set up rather than artistic choices. Issues about putting the process of putting the art on the website.

here are some that I think could go in the proposed new section

• The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently
  
• Art Colors can Change
  Whether because the Giant doesn't like the old color, or because his system doesn't.
  
• On Changing Font Style
  The failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same.
  
• Why Book Corrections Don't Get to the Online Strip
  Undoing the differences between online and book versions of strips would be inefficient.
  
• The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art

So what's everyone else think about this? Moving entries to a new category is easy enough to do, but mixing book-to-book and online-vs-book differences in a single category seems like it'd be more confusing than clarifying, and I'm not sure splitting it into book-to-book and online-vs-book categories would be particularly helpful if they'll have so few entries each.

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How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?

Frankly, I think I'm more like the local planetary governors who're overridden by their Imperial counterparts when they see fit; so it doesn't really affect me whether the regional governors have direct control or not.

[Gwynfrid]

So what's everyone else think about this? Moving entries to a new category is easy enough to do, but mixing book-to-book and online-vs-book differences in a single category seems like it'd be more confusing than clarifying, and I'm not sure splitting it into book-to-book and online-vs-book categories would be particularly helpful if they'll have so few entries each.

I'm lukewarm on this. I mean, I'm not opposed, because I admit the Art section is a little on the large side. But it doesn't strike me as a change we must have.

If you do separate "computer-driven" from art-focused quotes, then I recommend the first one ("The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently") should stay with "Art". In spite of its summary line, this quote is really all about art decisions.

[SaintRidley]

I'm lukewarm on this. I mean, I'm not opposed, because I admit the Art section is a little on the large side. But it doesn't strike me as a change we must have.

If you do separate "computer-driven" from art-focused quotes, then I recommend the first one ("The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently") should stay with "Art". In spite of its summary line, this quote is really all about art decisions.

And as the person who asked the question that got those quotes, the questioning was truly art-driven.

[Jasdoif]

Well, first things first.

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Proposed Items for Index 5.2
Why Some PDFs are Larger than Others High resolution raster artwork, mostly.	#1029	03/22/2016	No vote required, will be included.
On the Absence of a Random Comic Button "...I don't think it's really that good of an idea considering how tightly connected the comic is from one strip to the next."	#984	05/11/2015	No vote required, will be included.

With nothing eligible to be voted on, there will be no vote; both entries are now in the Index.

---

Now that the official-y stuff is done....

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I'm lukewarm on this. I mean, I'm not opposed, because I admit the Art section is a little on the large side. But it doesn't strike me as a change we must have.

If you do separate "computer-driven" from art-focused quotes, then I recommend the first one ("The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently") should stay with "Art". In spite of its summary line, this quote is really all about art decisions.

I agree...and now that I just had to shove the random comic quote into "Tools and Logistics" under "Writing", I think a category for stuff about the online presentation of the strips would mitigate my minor annoyance

Right now it looks like such a category should contain....

On the Absence of a Random Comic Button "...I don't think it's really that good of an idea considering how tightly connected the comic is from one strip to the next."	#984	05/11/2015
The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art Also, the font is larger because the online comic page is larger.	#949	04/17/2014
Why the Strip Titles Aren't Above the Strip The titles are "bonus" jokes. Rich prefers not to put them above the strip itself.	#759	11/20/2010
Why Book Corrections Don't Get to the Online Strip Undoing the differences between online and book versions of strips would be inefficient.	#665	06/25/2009

What's everyone else think?

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I'm not suggesting this to be added to the Index, but just figured it was worth mentioning:

I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

Unless there are rather large points of contention in the main comic or the PDFs what're gonna be released, looks like this thread is gonna be runnin' on fumes for a while.

So noted, but I don't think an official post about how it's been the past few/several months makes the scenario any different than it's been for the past few/several months. Besides, I'm sure some combination of fruit and Star Wars (Cherry Sithsabers! Exactly like Life Savers, just entirely different!) will keep us afloat (Life savers! Now in forum flavor, which may or may not bear a completely innocuous resemblance to banana!).

[Jasdoif]

OK, because I don't like how the thread's fallen onto the second page I couldn't find this quote through the Index because the description made no mention of what I was looking for....Does anyone else think it'd be worthwhile to add the portion about only SRD spells being common knowledge to this entry that's in D&D Rules and Explanations (or possibly something similar, like a second entry for the quote)?

Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
Durkon's Mass Death Ward Rich did not even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.	#806	09/19/2011

For ease of reference, the entire post:

I don't know why he had to research the spell in the first place. It already exists . It's not in the Player's Handbook, but it's in the Spell Compendium and Tsukiko already used Orb spells, which are also non-core.

She almost certainly had to research them specifically, though. For simplicity, I usually assume that all spells in the SRD are "common knowledge" and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it. That's because the bulk of the reading audience won't know about each and every spell in 3.5, but most of them have the Player's Handbook.

Plus, I didn't know Mass Death Ward was an actual spell until right this moment. I was merely extrapolating, I never checked any of the books for it. But it doesn't really affect the story either way, except for that I was pegging it at 7th level instead of 8th.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

OK, because I don't like how the thread's fallen onto the second page I couldn't find this quote through the Index because the description made no mention of what I was looking for....Does anyone else think it'd be worthwhile to add the portion about only SRD spells being common knowledge to this entry that's in D&D Rules and Explanations (or possibly something similar, like a second entry for the quote)?

Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
Durkon's Mass Death Ward Rich did not even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.	#806	09/19/2011

For ease of reference, the entire post:

Honestly I like the quote! But I think it showcases things other than mass death ward. For example, I find the information about SRD spells more keepable than the fact that he pegged it at level 7 rather than 8...

[Peelee]

Meant to do this a few days ago, but I got sidetracked....

I propose we remove the following:

Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.	#883	04/09/2013

It is no longer relevant to Vampire Durkon (or any known vampire in the comic, for that matter), so is only for world-building purposes. And as the Giant noted that the rules explicitly allow for non-theistic clerics, even that bit of world-building is accessible via SRD.

EDIT:

We don't even need the SRD. We have had explicitly non-theistic clerics in the comic.