The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

[TDG]

First and foremost - fully acknowledge my bias that I think this thread is overall good but also strays into the slightly overeager by documenting nigh-on everything ever posted by The Giant. I am always going to be in favour of removing quotes unless they have an ongoing benefit.

That being said I would like to discuss removing / combining some things (mainly art related cause to my mind a lot of them are no longer of note)

Index Guidelines
Delete Rule C and subsequent reference to Rule C in Rule D
- Its been about 5 years. Is the strikethrough aspect still needed?

Delete Old Inclusion Text
- Similar to above. Its been deleted nearly 3 years. No longer required

Alignment
Delete General Information - Elan and Nale's Parentage
- Elan / Nale / Empire of Blood family storyline has wrapped. No ongoing benefit to the "more information to come" aspect of post
- Alternative proposal: Remove quote as solo entry, instead have as "See also" under Good Characters - Elan is (still) Chaotic Good as it outlines Elan's view on what a "Good" character should do

Art
Delete General - On Changing Font Style
- Font style changed 5 years ago. Radical art style change in addition. No ongoing benefit to this

Delete General - Light and Art
- Current art style does including shading and light

Delete General - "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style
- Subsequently released. While the "bluescale" / "greyscale" input is fascinating, it is specific to the potential blue themed Azure City prequel and not of ongoing relevance

Combine General - Why Some Wounds are Black, and General - Art Colors can Change to new heading "Comic Colours"
- Art colours can change dependent on artistic vision and computer limitations. Wounds can be multiple colours for purposes of contrast

Remove Drawing - Redcloak Getting Footwear
- Art style changed for ~5 years now. Multiple character looks changed with art style and while the quote does go into more detail about the why ("weak and unthreatening") quote has no ongoing benefit

Remove Drawing - The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art
- Changed art style and online page size for ~5 years. No ongoing benefit

Combine Drawing - On Growing Art Complexity and Drawing - The Scenery is Harder to Draw Than the Characters
- Add the scenery tweet as a "see also" to growing art complexity as it shows that whilst the current art style takes longer, this is an acceptable side-effect to the growing art complexity The Giant wanted.
- Delete the hands information, seems to be largely reactionary to the (at-the-time) outcry about the hands. Doesn't particularly add anything of note, and the fact that The Giant wanted more complex but slightly lengthier-to-draw artwork is better summarised by the above 2 quotes

Combine Art & Magic - Meld Into Stone and Art & Magic - Invisibility into "Utility Trumps Consistency"

Writing
Remove Story Telling Mistakes? - Malack is Ash
- Quote comes from a discussion when Malack had just been killed and there was speculation may still live / questioning what happens to Durkon now. Subsequently evident in comic that Malack is dead dead and Durkon's fate

Remove Writing Process - About Roy Fighting HPoH ( ) at the Godsmoot
- Thread appears to be gone. Additionally the supplied information "beginning, not climax" is evident in comic

Remove Tools and Logistics - The Giant Would have Split Book Five's Arc to Make It Easier to Print
- Book Five subsequently printed. The fact that during that arc he wished he had written it differently doesnt seem to have any ongoing benefit to my mind

Retitle Story Development - The Girard's Gate Plotline
- Quote is more about the creative process and how The Giant's Writing "begins with the scenes that [he wants] to have happen, and then... [he develops] around them to make that seem reasonable". Uses Girard's Gate as an example, but is a broader concept

[SaintRidley]

My counterpoint: No to absolutely any of that that involves removing anything. If it's about the comic and its creative process in any way, I see zero grounds to ever remove it, even if superseded by later quotes or information presented in the comic, as it allows us a more accurate historical record of the creative efforts of the Giant and his thought for anyone who may wish to at some point actually study this comic more than just a passing read through. I'd prefer, if anything, to remove the process for removing material.

This has, of course, been my position for years, well-established, and always my rationale against every motion or vote to remove we've had.

[Peelee]

Anything referencing changes from X years ago is useful for knowing when the changes were made, at the very least (and often why the changes were made), which has ongoing benefit in perpetuity. I belief I have been the biggest instigator of calls to remove quotes (well, until now, with that impressive list), but all my pushes were made when the quote in question contained no information that couldn't be gotten elsewhere. I cannot agree with any of the proposed removals.

[Ron Miel]

Index Guidelines
Delete Rule C and subsequent reference to Rule C in Rule D
- Its been about 5 years. Is the strikethrough aspect still needed?

Somewhat agree. I think this should be kept, but as a preamble, not a rule. Certainly it shouldn't be a rule with strikeout text, that doesn't make sense. Move to preamble, or remove altogether.

Delete Old Inclusion Text
- Similar to above. Its been deleted nearly 3 years. No longer required

Agree

Alignment
Delete General Information - Elan and Nale's Parentage
- Elan / Nale / Empire of Blood family storyline has wrapped. No ongoing benefit to the "more information to come" aspect of post
- Alternative proposal: Remove quote as solo entry, instead have as "See also" under Good Characters - Elan is (still) Chaotic Good as it outlines Elan's view on what a "Good" character should do

Oppose. The quote is Elan and Nale's Parentage. How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed.
I don't see that this question has been answered yet. In fact I'm expecting a return of Nale in some form and a storyline involving their respective childhoods. Maybe a prequel book.

Art
Delete General - On Changing Font Style
- Font style changed 5 years ago. Radical art style change in addition. No ongoing benefit to this

Delete General - Light and Art
- Current art style does including shading and light

Combine General - Why Some Wounds are Black, and General - Art Colors can Change to new heading "Comic Colours"
- Art colours can change dependent on artistic vision and computer limitations. Wounds can be multiple colours for purposes of contrast

Remove Drawing - Redcloak Getting Footwear
- Art style changed for ~5 years now. Multiple character looks changed with art style and while the quote does go into more detail about the why ("weak and unthreatening") quote has no ongoing benefit

Remove Drawing - The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art
- Changed art style and online page size for ~5 years. No ongoing benefit

Oppose all of these. Some people are interested in the technical aspects of how the art is created. This includes methods the Giant used years ago that have changed.

Delete General - "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style
- Subsequently released. While the "bluescale" / "greyscale" input is fascinating, it is specific to the potential blue themed Azure City prequel and not of ongoing relevance

Agree somewhat. Keep the part about bluescale / grayscale, and delete the rest.

Combine Drawing - On Growing Art Complexity and Drawing - The Scenery is Harder to Draw Than the Characters
- Add the scenery tweet as a "see also" to growing art complexity as it shows that whilst the current art style takes longer, this is an acceptable side-effect to the growing art complexity The Giant wanted.
- Delete the hands information, seems to be largely reactionary to the (at-the-time) outcry about the hands. Doesn't particularly add anything of note, and the fact that The Giant wanted more complex but slightly lengthier-to-draw artwork is better summarised by the above 2 quotes

Combine Art & Magic - Meld Into Stone and Art & Magic - Invisibility into "Utility Trumps Consistency"

No opinion on this. I don't see any need to change it, but I wouldn't object either.

Writing
Remove Story Telling Mistakes? - Malack is Ash
- Quote comes from a discussion when Malack had just been killed and there was speculation may still live / questioning what happens to Durkon now. Subsequently evident in comic that Malack is dead dead and Durkon's fate

oppose - it is useful to clarify the art differences between dusted and gas form. This could come up in the current, or future storylines.

Remove Writing Process - About Roy Fighting HPoH ( ) at the Godsmoot
- Thread appears to be gone. Additionally the supplied information "beginning, not climax" is evident in comic

Agree. Especially since the thread is deleted.

Remove Tools and Logistics - The Giant Would have Split Book Five's Arc to Make It Easier to Print
- Book Five subsequently printed. The fact that during that arc he wished he had written it differently doesnt seem to have any ongoing benefit to my mind

Oppose. It contains information about his creative process, which is of interest to some people.

Retitle Story Development - The Girard's Gate Plotline
- Quote is more about the creative process and how The Giant's Writing "begins with the scenes that [he wants] to have happen, and then... [he develops] around them to make that seem reasonable". Uses Girard's Gate as an example, but is a broader concept.

Agree. This entry needs to be reworked. The discussion of the Giant's creative process is interesting and should be included, but the specific point that "Team Evil was never going to battle the OOTS at Girard's Gate" is pretty trivial.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think I mostly agree with what others have said, but I’ll add my own input.

Index Guidelines
Delete Rule C and subsequent reference to Rule C in Rule D
- Its been about 5 years. Is the strikethrough aspect still needed?

Delete Old Inclusion Text
- Similar to above. Its been deleted nearly 3 years. No longer required

I’m fine with keeping all this, as I don’t really think the rules are at a point where they are cluttered, and I like to see that there has been a change in them over time, but I don’t really have a strong opinion on it either way.

Alignment
Delete General Information - Elan and Nale's Parentage
- Elan / Nale / Empire of Blood family storyline has wrapped. No ongoing benefit to the "more information to come" aspect of post
- Alternative proposal: Remove quote as solo entry, instead have as "See also" under Good Characters - Elan is (still) Chaotic Good as it outlines Elan's view on what a "Good" character should do.

I’d be willing to go with the “see also” proposal, but again, no strong feelings.

Art
Delete General - On Changing Font Style
- Font style changed 5 years ago. Radical art style change in addition. No ongoing benefit to this

Delete General - Light and Art
- Current art style does including shading and light

Delete General - "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style
- Subsequently released. While the "bluescale" / "greyscale" input is fascinating, it is specific to the potential blue themed Azure City prequel and not of ongoing relevance

Just because they’re old or reference the old art style doesn’t mean that they don’t necessarily have any relevance (especially for someone who is curious about older events). I think we should keep these.

Combine General - Why Some Wounds are Black, and General - Art Colors can Change to new heading "Comic Colours"
- Art colours can change dependent on artistic vision and computer limitations. Wounds can be multiple colours for purposes of contrast

While similar, I think the difference between changing art colors, and a different representation of wounds are different enough to warrant separate entries, but I would not be averse to the Wounds entry becoming a see also if there’s other support.

Remove Drawing - Redcloak Getting Footwear
- Art style changed for ~5 years now. Multiple character looks changed with art style and while the quote does go into more detail about the why ("weak and unthreatening") quote has no ongoing benefit


Remove Drawing - The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art
- Changed art style and online page size for ~5 years. No ongoing benefit

To me, those details about the “why” are exactly what makes these relevant, so I’d keep.

Combine Drawing - On Growing Art Complexity and Drawing - The Scenery is Harder to Draw Than the Characters
- Add the scenery tweet as a "see also" to growing art complexity as it shows that whilst the current art style takes longer, this is an acceptable side-effect to the growing art complexity The Giant wanted.
- Delete the hands information, seems to be largely reactionary to the (at-the-time) outcry about the hands. Doesn't particularly add anything of note, and the fact that The Giant wanted more complex but slightly lengthier-to-draw artwork is better summarised by the above 2 quotes

I think the hands-specific information is still useful, so I’d either add Art Complexity as the see also, or just keep these as is.

Combine Art & Magic - Meld Into Stone and Art & Magic - Invisibility into "Utility Trumps Consistency"

While these are similar, I feel that the difference between rules accuracy and story utility is different enough to warrant these staying as separate entries. Again, if there’s enough support for it I think I’d be okay with the combination.

Writing
Remove Story Telling Mistakes? - Malack is Ash
- Quote comes from a discussion when Malack had just been killed and there was speculation may still live / questioning what happens to Durkon now. Subsequently evident in comic that Malack is dead dead and Durkon's fate

The information about gaseous form and the items is still pretty useful, beyond just Malack.

Remove Writing Process - About Roy Fighting HPoH ( ) at the Godsmoot
- Thread appears to be gone. Additionally the supplied information "beginning, not climax" is evident in comic

This one does seem to be an issue, so I propose changing the link of that entry to this, in keeping with Rule A.

Remove Tools and Logistics - The Giant Would have Split Book Five's Arc to Make It Easier to Print
- Book Five subsequently printed. The fact that during that arc he wished he had written it differently doesnt seem to have any ongoing benefit to my mind

It’s an interesting aspect of the story creation process and worth keeping.

Retitle Story Development - The Girard's Gate Plotline
- Quote is more about the creative process and how The Giant's Writing "begins with the scenes that [he wants] to have happen, and then... [he develops] around them to make that seem reasonable". Uses Girard's Gate as an example, but is a broader concept

I agree with this proposal.

[Caerulea]

Add me as as vote for everything Ron Miel said.

—Caerulea

[Kish]

I'm with SaintRidley here: don't remove any of those things.

[Ron Miel]

This one does seem to be an issue, so I propose changing the link of that entry to this, in keeping with Rule A.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea. The moderators have ruled that thread problematical and deleted it. Maybe best not to link to it.

[Throknor]

I'm with SaintRidley here: don't remove any of those things.

Agreed. And it's obvious the posters wanting deletes aren't going to agree on which ones.

[Jasdoif]

Spoiler: I Made Too Many(?) Minitables Responding to TDG

Show

Delete Rule C and subsequent reference to Rule C in Rule D
- Its been about 5 years. Is the strikethrough aspect still needed?

Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading. (rescinded as rule on 12/16/2014)

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions. (reference to rescinded rule removed on 12/16/2014)

It prevents me from needing to reletter the later rules or from needing to explain why there's a gap in the lettering...which, incidentally, is why I didn't delete it four and a half years ago.

---

Delete General - On Changing Font Style
- Font style changed 5 years ago. Radical art style change in addition. No ongoing benefit to this

General
On Changing Font Style The failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same.	#936	2014/01/04

The bit where everything from then forward has to use the new font seems relevant, especially since Blood Runs in the Family has that different font throughout the entire book...and we already have a quote about why the online strips don't get updated, so this difference is likely to last in perpetuity...and the quote will be useful if anyone wonders/asks about it.

(Can someone with the older books in PDF form verify that they use the new font as well?)

---

Delete General - Light and Art
- Current art style does including shading and light

General
Light and Art The art style doesn't show lighting and shading, much like how it doesn't show noses.	#871	2013/02/26

Only sometimes. The chamber the comic is currently in seems to be lacking a lot of light sources, for example. I could update the description to point at "generally well-lit until there's a story/joke reason for them to not be", I suppose....

---

Delete General - "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style
- Subsequently released. While the "bluescale" / "greyscale" input is fascinating, it is specific to the potential blue themed Azure City prequel and not of ongoing relevance

General
"How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style As everything going forward will be, unless it's meant to be inserted in the middle of older art. Also, the story is in grayscale instead of bluescale; because the color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.	#1042	2016/07/03

The part where everything not intended to fit inside older art will use the new art style in the future, sound like it'll have ongoing relevance.

---

Combine General - Why Some Wounds are Black, and General - Art Colors can Change to new heading "Comic Colours"
- Art colours can change dependent on artistic vision and computer limitations. Wounds can be multiple colours for purposes of contrast

General
Why Some Wounds are Black "I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines."	#1005	2015/09/15
Art Colors can Change Whether because the Giant doesn't like the old color, or because his system doesn't.	#942	2014/01/28

Seems to me like they're addressing different aspects, to the point that merging them would be misleading. Having a "colors" subcategory might be okay, since it could pull in the spell colors entry.

---

Combine Art & Magic - Meld Into Stone and Art & Magic - Invisibility into "Utility Trumps Consistency"

Art & Magic
Meld Into Stone Art trumps rules accuracy here in order to show the warping of the spell effect.	#859	2012/07/26
Invisibility Why the art for invisible characters isn't consistent (utility trumps consistency).	#706	2010/03/15

These aspects are even more distinct; the former is about differences between rules text and the comic, the latter is about portraying invisibility differently within the comic. Heck, the original post of that thread referenced invisibility being portrayed differently in the same first panel.

---

Remove Story Telling Mistakes? - Malack is Ash
- Quote comes from a discussion when Malack had just been killed and there was speculation may still live / questioning what happens to Durkon now. Subsequently evident in comic that Malack is dead dead and Durkon's fate

Storytelling Mistakes?
Malack is Ash Vampires take their gear with them when they assume gaseous form, but not when they're destroyed.	#906	2013/07/28

This one keeps coming up whenever vampires are killed destroyed, and there are still vampires in the comic.

---

Remove Writing Process - About Roy Fighting HPoH ( ) at the Godsmoot
- Thread appears to be gone. Additionally the supplied information "beginning, not climax" is evident in comic

Writing Process
About Roy Fighting HPoH ( ) at the Godsmoot It's the beginning of the arc, not the climax of it.	#1016	2015/12/19

Alternate thread sourcing aside, it was also "evident" at the time; that didn't seem to stop it from being questioned enough for the Giant to respond to it.

---

Retitle Story Development - The Girard's Gate Plotline
- Quote is more about the creative process and how The Giant's Writing "begins with the scenes that [he wants] to have happen, and then... [he develops] around them to make that seem reasonable". Uses Girard's Gate as an example, but is a broader concept

Story Development
The Girard's Gate Plotline Tarquin and the LG are the main adversaries of this book; Team Evil was never going to battle the OOTS at Girard's Gate.	#906	2013/07/28

Hm...so you think the title and description are too oblique about the post being about the creative process, even though the post is specifically addressing the "example" of Girard's Gate plotline?

[Gwynfrid]

I agree with most of what Ron Miel and Jaxzan Proditor have written above in opposing nearly all of the suggested deletions. Exceptions:
- The thread that the "Roy fighting HPoH at the Godsmoot" quote comes from was removed by moderators for a reason. Using the Wayback Machine to refer to it is a questionable move and may be against forum rules: It's not quite the same as re-starting a previously closed thread, but it's close.
- For a few quotes, maybe some changes in the title or description text are in order. Examples: The quote about the art style of HtPGhS, and the one about the Girard's Gate plotline.

So, I would agree with some light changes, but nothing like the sweeping removals being proposed.

[Kish]

I think using the wayback machine to link to something that was explicitly removed from the board by the moderators is a really bad idea, for my part.

[Keltest]

I think using the wayback machine to link to something that was explicitly removed from the board by the moderators is a really bad idea, for my part.

Ditto. Even if it technically isn't against the forum rules (which I doubt) its in bad taste and disrespectful to the mods who removed it.

[Peelee]

And my axe!

... Er, that is, Im with Kish 'n Keltest.

[Jasdoif]

I think using the wayback machine to link to something that was explicitly removed from the board by the moderators is a really bad idea, for my part.

I'm gonna say...let me worry about if we can index it; whether we should (still) index it is the bigger question.

[Peelee]

I'm gonna say...let me worry about if we can index it; whether we should (still) index it is the bigger question.

I do think that argument is about the should, and not the can.

[Jasdoif]

I do think that argument is about the should, and not the can.

Seems like it's more about the interplay between the two...which is fine; but since I'm not going to go that route without explicit moderator approval anyway, discussion on whether or not it's worth keeping on its own merits will be far more useful to me in the scenario where it could actually remain in the Index.

ETA: ...and I've just been instructed not to take the Wayback Machine route, so it hardly matters; the entry will be removed.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, that’s fair enough. I didn’t realize the mods had explicitly removed the thread; thought it was more of a 404 sort of situation. So, yeah, probably not a great suggestion on my part.

[Jasdoif]

Ah, that’s fair enough. I didn’t realize the mods had explicitly removed the thread; thought it was more of a 404 sort of situation. So, yeah, probably not a great suggestion on my part.

I liked it....And as I mentioned before, should let me worry about whether we can Index it or not...which I have dutifully worried to completion. So, no worries!

---

Now if I'm not mistaken, with all the posts going by....The accumulated direction seems to oppose removing anything (else), but suggests a couple entries could be reworded:

Entries with a Noticeable Push Towards Rewording
"How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style As everything going forward will be, unless it's meant to be inserted in the middle of older art. Also, the story is in grayscale instead of bluescale; because the color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.	#1042	2016/07/03
The Girard's Gate Plotline Tarquin and the LG are the main adversaries of this book; Team Evil was never going to battle the OOTS at Girard's Gate.	#906	2013/07/28

The former, because "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is no longer a key focus since it's been doubly released (once on its own, once in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished); the latter, because "WHY DIDN'T THE ORDER FIGHT TEAM EVIL" is nowhere near as prevalent as it was when the entry was added, and the writing aspect is less-distracted-from now.

Anyone have specific wording suggestions they want to float?

[Peelee]

I liked it....And as I mentioned before, should let me worry about whether we can Index it or not...which I have dutifully worried to completion.

Well that's worrying!

[Jasdoif]

Well that's worrying!

It was, yes.

[Ron Miel]

Why "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in Greyscale not Bluescale
The color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.

[Caerulea]

Entries with a Noticeable Push Towards Rewording
"How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style As everything going forward will be, unless it's meant to be inserted in the middle of older art. Also, the story is in grayscale instead of bluescale; because the color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.	#1042	2016/07/03
The Girard's Gate Plotline Tarquin and the LG are the main adversaries of this book; Team Evil was never going to battle the OOTS at Girard's Gate.	#906	2013/07/28

Anyone have specific wording suggestions they want to float?

Change "main adversaries of this book" to "main adversaries of book 5" as the current book is no longer Blood Runs in the Family.

—Caerulea

[Jasdoif]

Hmm. Now I'm wondering if the parts that look important to me are what anyone else cares about...Oh well, guess I'll give it a shot and see what happens!

---

Proposed New Wording
Everything Going Forward will be in the New Art Style Unless it's meant to be inserted in the middle of older art. Also, How the Paladin Got His Scar is in grayscale instead of bluescale, because the color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.	#1042	2016/07/03
Plotting the Girard's Gate Arc "Writing begins with the scenes that I want to have happen, and then I develop stuff around them to make that seem reasonable."	#906	2013/07/28

---

Now then...Am I the only one who didn't know this post about Miko existed?

In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away. She doesn't like them, but she doesn't consider killing them and brings them back to trial. Belkar and the rest have now brought it back, and pushed it to the point of her wanting to kill Good and Neutral characters. She's been pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross.

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."

[Resileaf]

I did not. More information is always useful.

Especially with how often conversations about her come along around here.

[Peelee]

I just assumed it was already indexed. At least since the first time I saw it when it came up recently.

[hamishspence]

Now then...Am I the only one who didn't know this post about Miko existed?

I thought it had been indexed before, but I could be wrong.

[Caerulea]

Include, if it had not been.

—Caerulea

[Syncrogti]

I come here thinking the Giant has said something useful recently about the comic but it ends up being a discussion about comments from 2013 and 2016. How long has it been? Does he comment anymore on this stuff? Do we need this thread anymore?

[Peelee]

Do we need this thread anymore?

Yes. This isn't a chronicle of recent comments. In fact, that already exists here.