Dragonball in the Playground OOC III

[Hawkflight]

Okay, this is going to be a long one, so I'm going to respond in a similar organized list. That said, just because I am responding doesn't mean I don't want you to reply to each other - in fact, I greatly encourage you to read each others' lists and respond to them, using this list as a source of ideas to aid your discussion, before responding to my own points. Also, sorry for taking so long, this is actually longer than my next school paper and I lost half of it to a system crash.

Raz:

1. I understand this, and I can understand why you think that. However, I would like to ask: is it really unreasonable for Aspa to warn the Androids about the Burnouts, from an in-character perspective? If this would have prevented the plot from moving forward, then this kind of issue should probably be discussed in the OOC thread, preferably with Frozen acting as the final arbiter as he is the one running this RP in the end.
2. I see where you're coming from with this, but keep in mind that there are potential reasons for this. I have a friend who was so scarred by Discord (from My Little Pony) that she refuses to partake in anything involving mind control, and to such a person, this type of hypnosis or mind control would be far worse than kidnapping or, in some cases, even death. So, Cav, I put the question to you - why is it that you dislike the idea of the androids being hypnotized worse than the idea of their being kidnapped? Can you please communicate this to us?
3. I'm going to add something to this: Callins automatically knowing which of the Vatis was the real one, when there were several indistinguishable clones. Now, Callins' desire to see his friend after so long is actually perfectly fair. After all, if you were in another country for six years and just got back to your country of origin, wouldn't you want to see the friends you left behind? In that case, the burden is on the storyteller (you in this case) to anticipate this and find a reason why Callins cannot just meet his old friend immediately. However, Cav, I do believe Raz attempted to do this with the Vati clones. And unfortunately, you did ruin that point by just outright stating you found the right one immediately, without giving Raz a chance to say "no, that was just a clone". But it is on the matter of attempting to kill Tailripper with one hit like you're Saitama that I become concerned. In fact, what you did was actually against the forum rules. It is against the rules to perform a "closed attack" on a character controlled by another player, which is what you did. Not only is it against the rules, it is not very fair to the person playing the character. Do you think that in the future, you can remember this and not attempt to "pull a Saitama", as it were? This one is actually my fault, unfortunately. Cav, I should not have pressured you into posting, and for that I apologize.
4. This is somewhat understandable, as people forget facts all the time. This is why it is important to make sure all your facts are correct. Cav, in this example, you got upset because you thought the serum was giving Vati godhood, which I understand that you felt invalidated much of the point of the half-life serum as a plot device - the idea being that the serum failed and you can't just science your way to godhood. In the future, do you think you can double-check to make sure you have all of the facts straight? Or at least communicate your concerns in a calm manner, staying open to the possibility that you could be mistaken?
5. I suppose my response here it obvious, but it has to be asked - Cav, why is it that you feel this way and reacted like you did to what the androids did? Even if it was just your characters' thoughts as opposed to your own, the question remains the same - why?
6. This is a point where I think we can all improve, even me. Communication, I firmly believe, is the most important thing in an RP, the lynchpin the rest of it cannot function without. It's as the old trope says: poor communication kills. That said, this is a question to everyone, but especially to you two in particular: do you think that in the future, you could attempt to communicate better, especially your thoughts and feelings on these kinds of matters?
7. I have to ask, partially out of curiosity - Cav, why is it so important that Que and Zoyl be so powerful? What exactly would change about them if they were not so powerful? Or if they were powerful, but their powers had negative consequences or drawbacks that made it so they couldn't just use it to solve every problem? Anyways, this is another communication issue. If we had known that his warding the cure ahead of time would be a problem, I don't think we would have done it. As it is, as soon as we knew, Cav did say that the ward could be broken, so I think Que and Zoyl's presence won't necessarily cause significant problems in the future so long as we communicate. Although I may be approaching this from a biased perspective, as I do want to see how Que's and Starlight's relationship develops from this point. As for using Que as a mouthpiece ... having read through a bit of both threads and speaking with him over Skype, I don't believe this is the case, thankfully. That said, Raz, if Cav promises to keep Que and Zoyl from negatively affecting the plot, do you think you can promise to communicate when you feel like his powers would cause problems?
8. I think this is basically the first point again, so instead of repeating what I said there, I'll refer you to my response to it.

Cav:

1. I can understand where you're coming from. This is a common issue, not just among roleplayers, but among RPG players in general. You feel like the plot is being railroaded to a certain conclusion, whereas Raz really wants to show off the work she put so much time and effort into writing. Unfortunately, there really is no good way to resolve this particular instance of this, but I feel like it wouldn't have been an issue if the other points we're addressing were resolved. In the future, if this is an issue and you cannot resolve it with each other, do you think you can post your grievances in the OOC thread, or PM myself or Frozen? We would both be more than happy to help you resolve it.
2. Unfortunately, this matter is something that occurred over PM, and therefore I don't feel comfortable offering advice on the matter. However, if it happens again, please feel free to ask me for help, and I will be more than happy to help resolve things in whatever way I can.
3. I can see your point here. This is a major difference of roleplaying styles, and I can see how you could get frustrated at seeing all of the attention of Vati, while the rest of the story suffered for it. Raz, I want to make it clear that I greatly enjoy Vati as a character. However, I do feel like the androids' motivations for going to the bazaar were a bit underdeveloped, and I think this is one of Cav's concerns. I, personally, would love to see more of their motivations here. Show, don't tell. What are they thinking? How are their duties affecting them? Has 23's wonder from meeting Princess Celestia and seeing space already faded, to the point where all they want is some time off? I think we would all love to read more about this. However, Cav, I do want to say one thing. You said, "You act as if you want them to have flaws like we all have flaws." However, I do not believe this is a bad thing. Personally, I feel like most characters should have flaws. It makes them more relatable, and helps us get invested in them. I know that we were talking on Skype about highlighting Callins flaws after this arc, and I think there is some great potential for character growth there. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
4. So, do you feel like Raz is attempting to "pull a Saitama" to diffuse the inter-character drama in one post, in the same way you tried to defeat Tailripper in one post? If this is the case, please, let us know. Proper communication is very important here.
5. Again, this is something that occurred over PM, so I can't really help. Again, however, if it happens again, please feel free to ask me for help, and I will be more than happy to help resolve things in whatever way I can.
6. This, I think, boils down to a major difference of opinion. Some of us like to roleplay, while some of us like to fight. However, at its core, this is a DragonBallZ roleplay, and one generally goes into these things expecting a lot of battles, just like the source material. I know that I did - in fact, that's one of the reasons I created a pony as my character. I wanted to juxtapose the image of the adorable little pony with the power levels of over nine thousand. However, RPs can be flexible, so if you feel like you're not invested in a battle, let us know and we'll be more than happy to do some roleplaying with you as well. And if your character is meant to play a major role in a fight, please, speak up in advance and let us know that you don't feel like you would enjoy it. Do you think you can do that for me?
7. Unfortunately, impatience is a matter that many people struggle with. It's not something that is easily overcome, however, I do think that if impatience is getting the better of us and an RP is moving too fast, it's important to communicate that. Oftentimes, we don't realize that our own impatience is negatively affecting others. Therefore, and this goes to everyone, if you feel like things are moving too fast and you can't keep up, please, let us know in the OOC, and I'm sure we will be more than happy to let you catch up. And for the rest of us, if someone is having trouble keeping up, please, give them a chance to catch up and give their input on a situation before moving on.

I want to make it clear that I don't expect these problems to be fixed overnight. These are issues that will take time and patience on both of your parts to address. Do you two think that you can take my advice into consideration?

[Lord Raziere]

Raz:

*snip*

1. It is not unreasonable, that I can agree, I adapted to it after all.

3. I tried, from saying that Vati probably moved out of his old home during the six years time to saying that he was probably at a different club for the next announcement, to the Vati clones, but cavaliered just kept saying that Callins would know where to look, so its like, how can I keep them apart if he apparently knows everything?

6. I will do my best.

7. I will try to be more mindful of such them, yes.

8. Very well.

The Cav points:

3. Very well, I can elaborate upon this, though I do admit that I hadn't adjusted my plans in light of the space journey or the meeting with Celestia-those might've given them character development and happiness that would've made this less reasonable than before when 23 was more arguing with people left and right to try and keep everything afloat. these plans have been here before the timeskip, and the Androids were a lot more argumentative an in-game year ago and more focused on keeping the group together.

if there is more I must address, please tell me.

[cavalieredraghi]

Okay, this is going to be a long one, so I'm going to respond in a similar organized list. That said, just because I am responding doesn't mean I don't want you to reply to each other - in fact, I greatly encourage you to read each others' lists and respond to them, using this list as a source of ideas to aid your discussion, before responding to my own points. Also, sorry for taking so long, this is actually longer than my next school paper and I lost half of it to a system crash.

Raz:

1. I understand this, and I can understand why you think that. However, I would like to ask: is it really unreasonable for Aspa to warn the Androids about the Burnouts, from an in-character perspective? If this would have prevented the plot from moving forward, then this kind of issue should probably be discussed in the OOC thread, preferably with Frozen acting as the final arbiter as he is the one running this RP in the end.
2. I see where you're coming from with this, but keep in mind that there are potential reasons for this. I have a friend who was so scarred by Discord (from My Little Pony) that she refuses to partake in anything involving mind control, and to such a person, this type of hypnosis or mind control would be far worse than kidnapping or, in some cases, even death. So, Cav, I put the question to you - why is it that you dislike the idea of the androids being hypnotized worse than the idea of their being kidnapped? Can you please communicate this to us?
3. I'm going to add something to this: Callins automatically knowing which of the Vatis was the real one, when there were several indistinguishable clones. Now, Callins' desire to see his friend after so long is actually perfectly fair. After all, if you were in another country for six years and just got back to your country of origin, wouldn't you want to see the friends you left behind? In that case, the burden is on the storyteller (you in this case) to anticipate this and find a reason why Callins cannot just meet his old friend immediately. However, Cav, I do believe Raz attempted to do this with the Vati clones. And unfortunately, you did ruin that point by just outright stating you found the right one immediately, without giving Raz a chance to say "no, that was just a clone". But it is on the matter of attempting to kill Tailripper with one hit like you're Saitama that I become concerned. In fact, what you did was actually against the forum rules. It is against the rules to perform a "closed attack" on a character controlled by another player, which is what you did. Not only is it against the rules, it is not very fair to the person playing the character. Do you think that in the future, you can remember this and not attempt to "pull a Saitama", as it were? This one is actually my fault, unfortunately. Cav, I should not have pressured you into posting, and for that I apologize.
4. This is somewhat understandable, as people forget facts all the time. This is why it is important to make sure all your facts are correct. Cav, in this example, you got upset because you thought the serum was giving Vati godhood, which I understand that you felt invalidated much of the point of the half-life serum as a plot device - the idea being that the serum failed and you can't just science your way to godhood. In the future, do you think you can double-check to make sure you have all of the facts straight? Or at least communicate your concerns in a calm manner, staying open to the possibility that you could be mistaken?
5. I suppose my response here it obvious, but it has to be asked - Cav, why is it that you feel this way and reacted like you did to what the androids did? Even if it was just your characters' thoughts as opposed to your own, the question remains the same - why?
6. This is a point where I think we can all improve, even me. Communication, I firmly believe, is the most important thing in an RP, the lynchpin the rest of it cannot function without. It's as the old trope says: poor communication kills. That said, this is a question to everyone, but especially to you two in particular: do you think that in the future, you could attempt to communicate better, especially your thoughts and feelings on these kinds of matters?
7. I have to ask, partially out of curiosity - Cav, why is it so important that Que and Zoyl be so powerful? What exactly would change about them if they were not so powerful? Or if they were powerful, but their powers had negative consequences or drawbacks that made it so they couldn't just use it to solve every problem? Anyways, this is another communication issue. If we had known that his warding the cure ahead of time would be a problem, I don't think we would have done it. As it is, as soon as we knew, Cav did say that the ward could be broken, so I think Que and Zoyl's presence won't necessarily cause significant problems in the future so long as we communicate. Although I may be approaching this from a biased perspective, as I do want to see how Que's and Starlight's relationship develops from this point. As for using Que as a mouthpiece ... having read through a bit of both threads and speaking with him over Skype, I don't believe this is the case, thankfully. That said, Raz, if Cav promises to keep Que and Zoyl from negatively affecting the plot, do you think you can promise to communicate when you feel like his powers would cause problems?
8. I think this is basically the first point again, so instead of repeating what I said there, I'll refer you to my response to it.

Cav:

1. I can understand where you're coming from. This is a common issue, not just among roleplayers, but among RPG players in general. You feel like the plot is being railroaded to a certain conclusion, whereas Raz really wants to show off the work she put so much time and effort into writing. Unfortunately, there really is no good way to resolve this particular instance of this, but I feel like it wouldn't have been an issue if the other points we're addressing were resolved. In the future, if this is an issue and you cannot resolve it with each other, do you think you can post your grievances in the OOC thread, or PM myself or Frozen? We would both be more than happy to help you resolve it.
2. Unfortunately, this matter is something that occurred over PM, and therefore I don't feel comfortable offering advice on the matter. However, if it happens again, please feel free to ask me for help, and I will be more than happy to help resolve things in whatever way I can.
3. I can see your point here. This is a major difference of roleplaying styles, and I can see how you could get frustrated at seeing all of the attention of Vati, while the rest of the story suffered for it. Raz, I want to make it clear that I greatly enjoy Vati as a character. However, I do feel like the androids' motivations for going to the bazaar were a bit underdeveloped, and I think this is one of Cav's concerns. I, personally, would love to see more of their motivations here. Show, don't tell. What are they thinking? How are their duties affecting them? Has 23's wonder from meeting Princess Celestia and seeing space already faded, to the point where all they want is some time off? I think we would all love to read more about this. However, Cav, I do want to say one thing. You said, "You act as if you want them to have flaws like we all have flaws." However, I do not believe this is a bad thing. Personally, I feel like most characters should have flaws. It makes them more relatable, and helps us get invested in them. I know that we were talking on Skype about highlighting Callins flaws after this arc, and I think there is some great potential for character growth there. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
4. So, do you feel like Raz is attempting to "pull a Saitama" to diffuse the inter-character drama in one post, in the same way you tried to defeat Tailripper in one post? If this is the case, please, let us know. Proper communication is very important here.
5. Again, this is something that occurred over PM, so I can't really help. Again, however, if it happens again, please feel free to ask me for help, and I will be more than happy to help resolve things in whatever way I can.
6. This, I think, boils down to a major difference of opinion. Some of us like to roleplay, while some of us like to fight. However, at its core, this is a DragonBallZ roleplay, and one generally goes into these things expecting a lot of battles, just like the source material. I know that I did - in fact, that's one of the reasons I created a pony as my character. I wanted to juxtapose the image of the adorable little pony with the power levels of over nine thousand. However, RPs can be flexible, so if you feel like you're not invested in a battle, let us know and we'll be more than happy to do some roleplaying with you as well. And if your character is meant to play a major role in a fight, please, speak up in advance and let us know that you don't feel like you would enjoy it. Do you think you can do that for me?
7. Unfortunately, impatience is a matter that many people struggle with. It's not something that is easily overcome, however, I do think that if impatience is getting the better of us and an RP is moving too fast, it's important to communicate that. Oftentimes, we don't realize that our own impatience is negatively affecting others. Therefore, and this goes to everyone, if you feel like things are moving too fast and you can't keep up, please, let us know in the OOC, and I'm sure we will be more than happy to let you catch up. And for the rest of us, if someone is having trouble keeping up, please, give them a chance to catch up and give their input on a situation before moving on.

I want to make it clear that I don't expect these problems to be fixed overnight. These are issues that will take time and patience on both of your parts to address. Do you two think that you can take my advice into consideration?

Raz's points

1. It was never meant to end plot ideas. It was meant to be a reasonable in character interaction.

2. The situation of the whole thing, it happening in a club, it being done by a powerful figure. It seemed to similar to a date rape attempt that is often heard of. The situation gave me images of that, that would be my main reason for issues. Even though that is not what happened, triggers should always be carefully handled.

3. It was not attempted, and I felt I could not have approached Raz OOC about it, given her aggressive behaviors from before it happened. So Like many things were I could not have control, neither could the one with me. If we can not talk and come to agreement, then thing should have happened.

4. I do think I could double check, but once again, give the time it happened, due to the way Raz had been treating me, I was not emotionally well enough to have done it.

5. For the reasons behind why the Androids did what they did was not clear. It was in my mind, a half ass attempt to continue a story that could have been better explained. It was a focus on flaws rather then virtues.

6. As With another fight from before I have attempted to be better at communication, and yet in this attempt like I have repeatedly said I treated with aggression.

7. Que and Zoyl are meant to be the catalyst for what will happen after the RA gets to Beerus level of strength. They are not meant to do anything since they know it will bring about more harm. They are just as much restrained by their strength as it is helpful. This is why they run in a fight, why they are mainly social willing to talk and talk down to. They are meant to get the RA ready in the long run for what is to come. They are not and can not solve anything, and everything. They are meant for things that are to come.

8. Since it is a repeat relook at 1.

Cav's points

1. I could attempt this in the future, however Since it is not apart of the RP Frozen is involved in, His final say is not as firm or solid as you would believe.

2. Pms are to be tossed aside then?

3. I had pointed out in Skype that you misinterpreted me. It is not that Flaws are Flaws it is that Flaws are being focused on more then the whole character. A Character is a mixture of Flaws and Virtues and motivations. All we saw was their Flaw their selfish desire for a day off, not the motivation the virtues as well.

4. I don't see how this ties into my 4. statement, could you clarify? especially when I am the one who has to come up with reasons for why Callins can't see Vati rather then work with Raz on that point.

5. See 2.

6. I have made it clear which Character(s) I would like to be in fights and those in RP. In this Arc those characters have barely been able to do this.

7. I feel at times Pacing is improper for the time of action going. If it is simple RP we should and can reply to those who reply to us. In Action we should wait for all to reply given precise actions are more important. Such as Initiative in D&D.

[Hawkflight]

I'm going to let Raz respond before going in-depth about anything, I just want to say a couple of things.

2. Pms are to be tossed aside then?

Well, yes. Unfortunately, I can't really help you with those, since I cannot see them. I cannot offer advice on something I can't see.

4. I don't see how this ties into my 4. statement, could you clarify?

I'm trying to understand what you were saying, as I didn't quite understand what you meant. I see I was mistaken. Could you please clarify what you meant?

--------------------

One more thing, and this goes for everyone, not just Raz and Cav. If you have a problem with one of the other RPers, and you feel you cannot approach them, please, feel free to contact me. I Pinkie Promise(TM) to do whatever I can to help.

[cavalieredraghi]

4. There has always been a focus in the past that our group the RA, is so individualized that we can't get along. Yep we can, and trying to restrict and bring our characters to how Raziere perceives them is no different then what is going on here. I view these characters to act a certain way, yet I feel I am not allowed to call attention to it anymore otherwise I am the one being turned on.

However this would be less of an issues if 3. was taken into account. Does that clarify?

[Hawkflight]

4. There has always been a focus in the past that our group the RA, is so individualized that we can't get along. Yep we can, and trying to restrict and bring our characters to how Raziere perceives them is no different then what is going on here. I view these characters to act a certain way, yet I feel I am not allowed to call attention to it anymore otherwise I am the one being turned on.

However this would be less of an issues if 3. was taken into account. Does that clarify?

Yes, it does, thank you.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm going to let Raz respond before going in-depth about anything, I just want to say a couple of things.

respond to what? what caval said in his latest post?

Raz-P:
1. kay
2. oh. didn't draw that connection
3. I do kinda remember being frustrated, but I'd say "aggressive" is taking it too far

5. I thought between all the warring personalities, arguments, people making threats, trying to destroy the world, people lying to other people, fighting, keep group cohesion, trying to teach a spoiled rich girl how to be strong but not a jerk, fearing two powerhouses that don't seem to be fully cooperative to the Androids point of view, planning to overthrow an empire, negotiating with divinities, welcoming the new recruits on top of keeping up with their training, gathering dragon balls, saving lives, that the reasons for them wanting to at least take one break for one day would be obvious. Apparently not.

6. "one frustrated PM late at night with apology afterwards after my realizing I gone overboard" is "aggression" now?

Cav-P:
3. well a character isn't all things on all days. people have moods, feelings are not set in stone, they change, they shift, sometimes even from day to day, personalities are not an entirely consistent thing

4. then just say so whether you want a problem solved early or not and I'll step off.

6. you have ample opportunities to fight. one-shotting somebody isn't a fight. fighting is not winning.

[cavalieredraghi]

respond to what? what caval said in his latest post?

Raz-P:
1. kay
2. oh. didn't draw that connection
3. I do kinda remember being frustrated, but I'd say "aggressive" is taking it too far

5. I thought between all the warring personalities, arguments, people making threats, trying to destroy the world, people lying to other people, fighting, keep group cohesion, trying to teach a spoiled rich girl how to be strong but not a jerk, fearing two powerhouses that don't seem to be fully cooperative to the Androids point of view, planning to overthrow an empire, negotiating with divinities, welcoming the new recruits on top of keeping up with their training, gathering dragon balls, saving lives, that the reasons for them wanting to at least take one break for one day would be obvious. Apparently not.

6. "one frustrated PM late at night with apology afterwards after my realizing I gone overboard" is "aggression" now?

Cav-P:
3. well a character isn't all things on all days. people have moods, feelings are not set in stone, they change, they shift, sometimes even from day to day, personalities are not an entirely consistent thing

4. then just say so whether you want a problem solved early or not and I'll step off.

6. you have ample opportunities to fight. one-shotting somebody isn't a fight. fighting is not winning.

Raz
3. It was aggression to me, you continually pushed me away when I simply wanted to have a discussion on the points of the PMs, then called me out on it, as if it was set in stone. You took every situation at is worst rather then discuss it like an adult, then we end up here were we both are Frustated/Angry.
5. You mean aside from the 7 days they just had off? Since we were unwilling to RP space we can only assume everyone was taking the time to relax, aside from those who stated otherwise.
6. Look back to 3

Cav-
3. Yet you only focus on the Flaws, Personalities are key to a character, but you forsake all that is good about the character and try to build them up when they don't need it.

4. I don't want the problem solved early, I just expect you to be better then railroading.

6. Maybe you should recheck the IC.
(this was calm)

[Lord Raziere]

Raz
3. It was aggression to me, you continually pushed me away when I simply wanted to have a discussion on the points of the PMs, then called me out on it, as if it was set in stone. You took every situation at is worst rather then discuss it like an adult, then we end up here were we both are Frustated/Angry.
5. You mean aside from the 7 days they just had off? Since we were unwilling to RP space we can only assume everyone was taking the time to relax, aside from those who stated otherwise.
6. Look back to 3

Cav-
3. Yet you only focus on the Flaws, Personalities are key to a character, but you forsake all that is good about the character and try to build them up when they don't need it.

4. I don't want the problem solved early, I just expect you to be better then railroading.

6. Maybe you should recheck the IC.
(this was calm)

Raz
3. I do not remember actively or intentionally doing that. what I remember is you frustrating me because your suggestions and problems made no sense to me.
5. I did not anticipate that, and there a vast difference between a break cooped up on a ship and a two time travelers finally getting back into an environment that finally feels familiar to them beyond one building, after a year of being surrounded by wilderness, cities that look strange and foreign to them and people that don't share of any of their values. culture shock is a thing.

Cav.
3. the Androids have many virtues, and they are all achieve by them simply acting naturally. virtues are easy to portray because they are a form of success, flaws are harder as you have to remind yourself to portray a character who can fail. thats why mary sues are so easy to make, people naturally gravitate towards success when quality stories comes in when characters suffer, and flaws are what make that happen, especially when they suffer for their success. thats why the Androids backstory is so dark and apocalyptic, to make sure there is a solid basis for suffering.

4. and I expect you to be better than trying to solve everything instantly. so, if we both have done something wrong, let us both try not to do it.

[cavalieredraghi]

Raz
3. Just like how I don't actively remember telling you to send the Androids to see the Burnouts.
5. You did not anticipate alot of things despite all your planning. You control the Androids you made them have to suffer. I was simply trying to give suggestion.

Cav
3. You focus on only flaws, You may not want them to be mary sues, and fine what ever that means. You however by only focusing on making your characters miserable show that you one care to be miserable.
4. That makes no sense, No don't do what you just did, it was wrong. Lets not talk about it and instead get into a fight. I honestly expect you to be better as a teller of the story, you should have trusted me that I was not trying to ruin the plot.

New Point 8. I am starting to wonder if you ever trusted me, or anyone here.

[Lord Raziere]

Cav
3. You focus on only flaws, You may not want them to be mary sues, and fine what ever that means. You however by only focusing on making your characters miserable show that you one care to be miserable.
4. That makes no sense, No don't do what you just did, it was wrong. Lets not talk about it and instead get into a fight. I honestly expect you to be better as a teller of the story, you should have trusted me that I was not trying to ruin the plot.

New Point 8. I am starting to wonder if you ever trusted me, or anyone here.

Ok, the other points I'm seeing where your coming from but these just have me going:



because its like, completely out of nowhere, out of line and makes no sense. what could possibly make you think I don't trust anyone, or that I only want to be miserable? if the latter was true, I'd still be living with my father, thats misery enough for a lifetime. as for not trusting anybody, your the one who refuses to elaborate on anything and just keeps saying "trust me" without explanation of what your going to do and how it won't ruin the plot even though I keep explaining plot things to you and trusting you to not use the information to mess things up, then you go and do things that mess things up. from my point of view, I shared that information in trust and you went and betrayed that for your own plan of what you were going to do, without communicating to me what it would be, thus not trusting me to accept whatever change you had in mind.

so.....your jumping to some hasty conclusions here. Targulas.

[cavalieredraghi]

Ok, the other points I'm seeing where your coming from but these just have me going:



because its like, completely out of nowhere, out of line and makes no sense. what could possibly make you think I don't trust anyone, or that I only want to be miserable? if the latter was true, I'd still be living with my father, thats misery enough for a lifetime. as for not trusting anybody, your the one who refuses to elaborate on anything and just keeps saying "trust me" without explanation of what your going to do and how it won't ruin the plot even though I keep explaining plot things to you and trusting you to not use the information to mess things up, then you go and do things that mess things up. from my point of view, I shared that information in trust and you went and betrayed that for your own plan of what you were going to do, without communicating to me what it would be, thus not trusting me to accept whatever change you had in mind.

so.....your jumping to some hasty conclusions here. Targulas.

You lost the chance to use that when you caused this fight. For I never once said trust me, to you I wanted to discuss, but you continue to forget you got aggressive so I backed down. You came at me, I even used that very word on You once because I felt threatened. You just keep playing boring Flaw obsessed characters Raziere. Do you want you like since you are in capable of trust.

[Lord Raziere]

You lost the chance to use that when you caused this fight. For I never once said trust me, to you I wanted to discuss, but you continue to forget you got aggressive so I backed down. You came at me, I even used that very word on You once because I felt threatened. You just keep playing boring Flaw obsessed characters Raziere. Do you want you like since you are in capable of trust.

you've said it before, and your the one who brought up trust in the first place, and I like how you avoid the addressing of your own flaws by emotionally focusing on how our relationship is, rather than actually taking a look at what your saying and determining whether any of it makes logical sense, then throwing out wild statements that you have no evidence for, or dramatic sounding sentences that don't actually mean anything. from my point of view, I'm just wanting this to all get back on track, your the one holding this up because your not getting your way, which we have ample evidence of you doing in the past. please quit acting like a drama queen, its not helping your case.

[cavalieredraghi]

You call back on attacks and name calling once more. Shows how you are unwilling to admit your faults Raz. You still try to use you frustration as a weapon to make me back down. I am tired of it I refuse. I wont allow your taunts and refusal to cooperate to end this here. You brought is about from your actions in our PMs

[Rater202]

You both need to step back and cool off a bit.

[Hawkflight]

Okay, two things. First off, I think we're getting a little over-emotional here. I think we should calm down, and make sure that we don't resort to personal attacks. (I am not saying that's what's happening, but I don't think any of us want it to get to that point first.) Therefore, I wish to invoke Targalus.

Second, I can't help but feel like most of these problems could have been avoided if you two had simply asked for help resolving this issue early on. So in the future, do you think, if things are beginning to get frustrated like they clearly were in these PMs, or if you have an issue with something another player is doing, you could ask for help resolving them, instead of letting them boil over like this again?

[cavalieredraghi]

I have and will agree to that again. I still however feel an apology is due from Raziere, on how she, in my opinion, had been aggressive, threating, and just blame thuggish she was to me.

[Hawkflight]

Perhaps that is the case. However, I would like to share one of my favorite storybook quotes with you. "To have a friend, you must be a friend." I don't even remember what book it was form, but that one quote has stuck with me for most of my life. I think we can all agree that both parties have erred here, so maybe the best way to get an apology is to reach across the aisle and apologize yourself?

[Lord Raziere]

Perhaps that is the case. However, I would like to share one of my favorite storybook quotes with you. "To have a friend, you must be a friend." I don't even remember what book it was form, but that one quote has stuck with me for most of my life. I think we can all agree that both parties have erred here, so maybe the best way to get an apology is to reach across the aisle and apologize yourself?

problem:
I don't see what exactly I have to apologize for. I've just been trying my best to make this arc good, and the only criticism I've had for it has been from cavaliered, who has been unreasonable in the past about this, so unless other people would like to speak up to agree or disagree on the flaws that I have, I cannot consider his criticism reliable, and would like a second opinion. particularly since cavalier's statements about me are getting increasingly hyperbolic. maybe there is a grain of truth to what he says, maybe there isn't, I cannot be sure until others stop being on the fence about this and blindly assuming that we're equally unreasonable when its clear that cavalier's arguments are not well thought out or make any sense. I'll apologize for any flaw I have that others can agree with cavalier on and confirm that I do indeed possess.

[cavalieredraghi]

For the first time that I am in the right, you are unwilling to admit it. You are unwilling to admit that I am correct. Why don't you just leave then Raziere?

[Rater202]

Cav, chill.

Both of you, this is no time to be playing the blame game.

[cavalieredraghi]

There is not blame game, I want an apology for the way I was treated, but instead she will act as if she has done nothing wrong. She clearly was never my friend for there would have been trust and discussion in the past, she would not have treated me like she did. We would not be here if she had treated me like a friend and trusted me like I trusted her.

[Rater202]

Cav. Do you still have the PM(s) where you felt she was agressive?

If so, quote them and post them here, so that Raz can either explain them or know what to apologize for.

[cavalieredraghi]

I do not anymore, for at the time I did not think it would become this large an issue. I thought that maybe I was wrong, but seeing her act this way now, I know I wasn't.

[Hawkflight]

Cav, Raz, please. I know you're both upset, and your emotions are high right now, but can you please just apologize to each other and kiss (metaphorically) and make up? I really feel like this argument is hurting us all, you two especially. Please?

[cavalieredraghi]

I am sorry Raz.

[Lord Raziere]

Cav, Raz, please. I know you're both upset, and your emotions are high right now, but can you please just apologize to each other and kiss (metaphorically) and make up? I really feel like this argument is hurting us all, you two especially. Please?

I'm not upset, I'm more pointing out how Cav is pulling his emotional nonsense again and getting kinda confused why no one else is seeing this, because its pretty obvious. if you remember our history, he has done with Ishimi when he first came here, he has done with Rater multiple times, and now he is doing this with me, even though I'm pointing out left and right the logical and rational problems in his reasoning, he isn't listening to me and realizing the mistakes he made, an has made multiple times, and I'm not going to stand for him making up hyperbolic things that aren't true about me, then expect me to apologize for traits I don't have, thats not how an apology works.

edit: oh. very well I accept, what do you want me to apologize for in return?

[cavalieredraghi]

That is up to you Raz you still backstabbed me no matter what you say.

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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[Emperor Ing]

That is the worst apology I have ever seen in my life. Cav, do you even think you have anything to apologize for?