Strange problems with CE alignment

[Pinjata]

So CE is: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

... and as I played my NPCs like this (basically big bullies - from an Orc to Dragon), eventually my players got upset over "baddies not having a plan". "How come they do not apply X or Y or masterful approach of Z?" were some of the questions. "What kind of a moron goes looting a village a mile away from Baldur's Gate?"

Anyway, with bullies in school, ISIS on the run and all sorts of "might is right" groups in real life, it amazes me that people see "brutal and unsophisticated" enemies as improbable.

What do you gus think on it?

[goto124]

It depends. Do your players like having to plan carefully against smart enemies? If so, dumb enemies are not terribly good.

But if the players prefer a more straightforward, hack-and-slash style? Absolutely nothing wrong with what you have!

[OldTrees1]

Well here are some things to remember:
1) CE is many things, not just that.
2) Many jerk negative_play_experience PCs have had CE alignment
3) Your players were upset that your BBEG had too low INT/WIS this is a direct statement of preference

It is not that that minor subset of CE is improbable, it is that it is boring to your players. They would rather your CE BBEGs have plans and have those plans match your intellect. So why not?




PS: You will want to delete the real world political reference (see forum rules)

[Pinjata]

Well here are some things to remember:
1) CE is many things, not just that.
3) Your players were upset that your BBEG had too low INT/WIS this is a direct statement of preference

1) What else would that be? Let's not wade into other alignments.
2)How would CE INT 18, WIS 18 character act?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

*Sigh*

CE is no more incapable of complex planning than any other alignment. They may be less inclined to it, but they're certainly capable of it. Just as there's more to LG than the Paladin, there's more to CE than the Berserker.

Example: This Guy is exceedingly CE, and very much capable of hatching detailed and complex schemes. As is This Guy. And, arguably, This Guy.

[Pinjata]

*Sigh*

CE is no more incapable of complex planning than any other alignment. They may be less inclined to it, but they're certainly capable of it. Just as there's more to LG than the Paladin, there's more to CE than the Berserker.

Example: This Guy is exceedingly CE, and very much capable of hatching detailed and complex schemes. As is This Guy. And, arguably, This Guy.

It really puzzles me like people like you are unable to grasp the concept. Read up any definition of CE.

[OldTrees1]

1) What else would that be? Let's not wade into other alignments.
2)How would CE INT 18, WIS 18 character act?

1) Well first a handbook since it has more words than I would write.

2) All CE characters have motives. A Int 14 Wis 14 CE character would make plans that were reasonably thought out to accomplish their objectives. What those objectives are and the obstacles in their way will shape their plans just like their Chaotic nature will shape their plans.

You mentioned looting a village close to a well defended city. Not much of a hint about motive but let's work with it. Let's say that they are motivated by a desire for conquest (in the might makes right wave of barbarians orcish way) but currently they need an influx of cash. They know that any village they hit with their gang will get reinforcements from Baldur's Gate. So they have a few options in how to plan for this known obstacles.
1) They could hit distant villages. This means they have more time before the army arrives, but it means that their targets would suspect moving towards the city would protect them.
2) They could hit middle distance villages. This has a faster response time but their targets would be split as to which way to move.
3) They could hit a nearby village, knowing the response time would be quick. If they take this route they would need to plan for how to deal with the known threat or how to exploit it.
3a) They could ambush the army while on route. Guerilla tactics could allow them to remove the threat or at least discourage Baldur's Gate from responding to them in future. At minimum it would slow down the response time for future attacks.
3b) Attack somewhere else while the army is out of position. Maybe split off a small band after the initial attack to keep attacking villages to draw the army away. In the meantime you sneak into Baldur's Gate and do some looting there.

3b is the most complicated plan and it is only 3 moves deep, and those moves are each very simple & flexible. Easily doable for a 14/14 Chaotic character.

In all of those cases the BBEG should have an idea for what they will do after their current objective is completed.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It really puzzles me like people like you are unable to grasp the concept. Read up any definition of CE.

From the 5e PHB: 'Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Demons, red dragons, and orcs are chaotic evil.' I fail to see how that necessarily precludes forethought, or that any of my examples fail to match that (I suppose you could argue Littlefinger).

It really puzzles me how people like you fail to follow their own advice.

[Darth Ultron]

First, the alignments are a bit different system to system and edition to edition.

Even if you want to say all CE people are "brutal and unsophisticated ", and they are all not, the definition of the words matters. What is "brutal" to one person in not to another, and sophistication is a huge can of worms.

And even if you have them all the same, they can still have plans.

Let's take Sauron as CE, his plan was "attack the world....oh, and find that one ring". I guess you could say it was brutal and unsophisticated, but it was a plan. Thantos from Marvel comics is a good example of chaotic evil, and he is smart and always has a plan.

[Pinjata]

From the 5e PHB: 'Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Demons, red dragons, and orcs are chaotic evil.' I fail to see how that necessarily precludes forethought, or that any of my examples fail to match that (I suppose you could argue Littlefinger).

It really puzzles me how people like you fail to follow their own advice.

It really puzzles me how people like you manage to understand acting with arbitrary violence as planning.

In fact it does not. You are just one of those meta-optimizer types that get all steaming and foaming if one suggests Orcs with INT 7 WIS 11 should not use any tactics beyond brute force and simple traps.

[OldTrees1]

In fact it does not. You are just one of those meta-optimizer types that get all steaming and foaming if one suggests Orcs with INT 7 WIS 11 should not use any tactics beyond brute force and simple traps.

Simple traps (aka the most basic 3 step plan)? So even dumb as 7/11 CE Orcs can plan? Since your players are asking for 14/14 CE BBEGs, what is the problem with having BBEGs that plan? Sure not all CE BBEGs will plan, but your players find/found/will find those boring.

[Blackhawk748]

It really puzzles me how people like you manage to understand acting with arbitrary violence as planning.

In fact it does not. You are just one of those meta-optimizer types that get all steaming and foaming if one suggests Orcs with INT 7 WIS 11 should not use any tactics beyond brute force and simple traps.

Orcs are one thing, you brought up Dragons, and, for the record, Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil and are considered one of the greatest manipulative masterminds around.

[Pinjata]

Simple traps (aka the most basic 3 step plan)? So even dumb as 7/11 CE Orcs can plan? Since your players are asking for 14/14 CE BBEGs, what is the problem with having BBEGs that plan. Sure not all CE BBEGs will plan, but your players find/found/will find those boring.

A legit comment. And here is where I got a bit caught wit the module I was running. Enemies were CE. I could change them into super-organized Darguun bugbear-like enemies, but that is not CE.

As I see it, alignment is, similar like all systems, plagued by underpinning desire of optimizers to rape every concept with optimization, masterful planning and overal common sense. CE is not that and IMO this very trait gives it some special stype of scary.

[Pinjata]

Orcs are one thing, you brought up Dragons, and, for the record, Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil and are considered one of the greatest manipulative masterminds around.

Very good point.

How should one run a CE creature with INT 18, WIS 18?

[Blackhawk748]

Very good point.

How should one run a CE creature with INT 18, WIS 18?

By having a framework of a plan. Lawful types generally like to have plans for every contingency. Chaotic types generally have a basic plan and a back up or two in case it all hits the fan.

For example, the raid on Village A near Baldur's gate:

Now as stated, Orcs would simply attack the town and then probably have the raiders split up afterward to confuse pursuit. This is something even animals do so their low Int doesnt matter here.

If a Black Dragon wanted them to attack that village, it would most likely go to their village and tell them about how much loot that place had. So the Orcs go and attack the village, and while that is happening the Dragon is using them as a distraction for its true ends. Maybe he was robbing a wizards tower or wanted a MacGuffin from one of the Nobility. In the end what he wanted doesnt matter, the Orcs have drawn the army away, he attacks the city as a Dragon, chucks an illusion of him still attacking the city as he polymorphs into a Pixie or something and then steals whatever he wanted in the confusion. After that he just buggers out with his preferred method.

There, what i consider a typical CE plan. There is a goal, a way to achieve the goal, and plenty of wiggle room.

[OldTrees1]

A legit comment. And here is where I got a bit caught wit the module I was running. Enemies were CE. I could change them into super-organized Darguun bugbear-like enemies, but that is not CE.

As I see it, alignment is, similar like all systems, plagued by underpinning desire of optimizers to rape every concept with optimization, masterful planning and overal common sense. CE is not that and IMO this very trait gives it some special stype of scary.

Organized? No. CE organizations are not organized. They scoff at the slow reaction and inflexibility of being truly "organized". Instead they take advantage of the quick reaction and flexibility of having groups of individuals. And that is the trick, as intelligence and wisdom go up the ability to plan/adjust/react/predict increase but does so in a manner consistent with the personality of the character.

Lawful plans tend to be rigid, contingency heavy, top down orders, and detailed
Chaotic plans tend to be fluid, planned flexibility, uses individual initiative, and abstract

Be careful you don't mistake "optimization" with empathy/understanding. In any individual case either could be the culprit.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It really puzzles me how people like you manage to understand acting with arbitrary violence as planning.

In fact it does not. You are just one of those meta-optimizer types that get all steaming and foaming if one suggests Orcs with INT 7 WIS 11 should not use any tactics beyond brute force and simple traps.

*Further Sighs*

'Arbitrary violence' and 'planning' are not contradictory concepts. They are not, in fact, related concepts in any way. The presence of one does not imply anything about the other - that one commits arbitrary violence does not prohibit one from also committing, at other times, deliberated violence.

And no, low intelligence orcs shouldn't be making complex plans. High intelligence CE characters though? Like maybe that specific breed of orc known for heightened intelligence and tactical planning?* Or maybe one of those demon lords known for their incredibly complex schemes and plans? Yeah, maybe they should do that. Just a thought.

*That's Orogs, incidentally.

A legit comment. And here is where I got a bit caught wit the module I was running. Enemies were CE. I could change them into super-organized Darguun bugbear-like enemies, but that is not CE.

As I see it, alignment is, similar like all systems, plagued by underpinning desire of optimizers to rape every concept with optimization, masterful planning and overal common sense. CE is not that and IMO this very trait gives it some special stype of scary.

You forgot our wish to make people use spellcheckers. Overall, that's the type of thing we like to do with our time.

Also, what Blackhawk and Oldtrees said.

[The Insanity]

Don't use CE enemies.

Enything else?

[Arbane]

Very good point.

How should one run a CE creature with INT 18, WIS 18?

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"

[Darth Ultron]

Very good point.

How should one run a CE creature with INT 18, WIS 18?

Well, they would be smart and wise and evil.

Intelligence is knowing stuff. Wisdom is about gaining from experience, being able to connect the dots. Knowing why someone does something and how they were motivated, doesn't make them less evil.

Now, having a plan does has nothing to do with alignment. After all even ''lets attack that guy and steal his money'' is a plan. But intelligence and wisdom can add to the level and complexity of the plan. While dumb unwise orcs will attack whatever is in front of them, a smarter wiser evil person will do things that make sense.

So, using the small town example. If the area is well paroled and the forces of good and law and justice are closely, then it's not too smart or wise to attack the town. Unless you don't care about the good guys or are too arrogant to think you will be caught. Or, if your smart and wise.....well, maybe you want your ''minions'' to get caught or killed. Maybe attacking the town is just a feint or a distraction or a test. Maybe it is setting up something else. Maybe the whole attack had some other goal?

[Bohandas]

Anyway, with bullies in school, ISIS on the run and all sorts of "might is right" groups in real life, it amazes me that people see "brutal and unsophisticated" enemies as improbable.

I'd say ISIS is NE or possibly LE though. They've got an awful lot of crazy rules.

[Frozen_Feet]

A stupid chaotic character has a goal (=something he wants) and takes the first action that comes to mind towards it. A smart chaotic character does the same thing, they just make better choices. It's the difference of trying to muscle through a door versus trying the doorhandle versus ringing the doorbell versus climbing in from an open window versus checking under the nearest potted plant for the key... correlating past experience with sensory information for that one decision.

[Fable Wright]

Very good point.

How should one run a CE creature with INT 18, WIS 18?

As mentioned: Watch The Dark Knight. Observe Heath Ledger. Learn.

He's got a goal, right? Sow terror, stay free. So he gets himself a base, some minions, and makes a robbery to get him all the cash he needs for the party. He comes up with a complex plan to get all of the hired help to kill each other, giving each of them one simple little instruction to carry out to rob the bank, and one instruction to bump off another one. Instructions are simple, leave them room to improvise, just tell them the salient points of what they have to do.

Or, say, you're crashing a big dinner party. The Joker's plan:
1. Infiltrate party.
2. Sow a little terror.
3. ???
4. Profit!

He plots out 1 pretty well, improvises 2 in the moment, and then just sits, laughs, and watches the fallout to figure out how to implement number 3. The mafia, the LE types, they don't want a step of ???. That means that you don't have a plan, it means that something can go wrong. The Joker, though? CE types in general? They know that you can't plan for everything in ???. So they don't bother. Joker's wise enough to know that in ???, everyone's going to fall back on their contingencies. Now, he doesn't have the time or the patience to plot out contingencies for their contingencies or whatever, and he knows that whatever you plan is going to get messed up by their contingencies. So he doesn't plan. He plays it by ear and takes advantage of their contingencies, throwing their order into disarray. When their contingencies are broken, and it's just pandemonium? He and his guys are used to pandemonium. He's successfully dragged a superior fighting force down to his level and beat them with experience.

That's how a smart and wise CE thinks. He knows the value of using chaos as a tool and a weapon, rather than trying to bring order to it. He rides the crest, wields chaos like a weapon, and grabs what he was aiming for while taking opportunities wherever they appear.

TL;DR: No plan survives first contact with the enemy, right? So you're smart enough plan deviously up to that point, and wise enough to play the rest by ear.

[Agrippa]

Part of the problem with D&D alignment as it is how the definitions for each alignment has shifted over the years. Frankly I prefer the take on alignment from the 1st Edition DMG as posted here. Instead of the difference between Law vs. Chaos being about rigidity/planning/rationality vs. flexibility/spontaneity/madness it was the difference between collectivism and individualism. And here's the best Lawful Evil quote I can find on such short notice.

In short, I imagine the Evil alignments like this:
Lawful Evil: fascist/totalitarian/ruthless authoritarian
Neutral Evil: non-ideological/apolitical cruelty
Chaotic Evil: blood thirsty anarchism/extreme Social Darwinism/harmful self-aggrandizement

[Surpriser]

Something to note is that while the chaotic NPC might not be so keen on planning, that does not mean that you as DM can't plan either.

In fact, if your CE BBEG is highly intelligent, one way to show this to the players is by having them come up with just the right reaction for each situation (which of course you have planned beforehand, but you should portray it as improvised, instinctive things). Just be careful that their actions don't require too much specific preparation before the fact and you should be fine.

[Bohandas]

As mentioned: Watch The Dark Knight. Observe Heath Ledger. Learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRG1tWQN6e8

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know? I just do things. The Mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers...how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say... Ah. Come here. When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal...you'll know that I'm telling the truth....It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans...and look where that got you....I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hm? You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot...or a truckload of soldiers will be blowing up...nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die...well, then, everyone loses their minds. Introduce a little anarchy...upset the established order...and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair."

[TheTeaMustFlow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRG1tWQN6e8

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know? I just do things. The Mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers...how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say... Ah. Come here. When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal...you'll know that I'm telling the truth....It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans...and look where that got you....I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hm? You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot...or a truckload of soldiers will be blowing up...nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die...well, then, everyone loses their minds. Introduce a little anarchy...upset the established order...and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair."

Yeah, sure, he says he doesn't have a plan. And he's obviously full of crap. He sets up incredibly (I'd say implausibly) complex schemes which demand his minions obey very specific orders - right down to crashing a bus at exactly the right moment or having someone fed an explosive phone and be at the correct location and managing to get a phone while locked up all at the exact right moment, et cetera. So yes, whatever he says, the Joker is a planner. The Joker is a schemer. But that doesn't really change the 'agent of chaos' bit. (Though fair is exactly what chaos isn't, but that's beside the point.

[veti]

My favourite CE characters are those who play on the same team as Good-aligned characters. After all, they're out for themselves, they care nothing about "cosmic evil" or any greater cause - they're perfectly happy to support the forces of right and justice, as long as they can satisfy their own vicious lusts and pocket enough loot while doing so.

Think Belkar Bitterleaf, or Harry Flashman.

CE villains can be fun - they can be elusive, destructive, stupidly powerful - but on average, they're by nature likely to be less of a threat than comparably-powerful LE villains. Dealing with them is more likely to involve a chase or hunt, rather than a stand-up fight. But CE "heroes" - they can be a real threat.

[Harbinger]

Chaotic vs. Lawful doesn't have to do with intelligence or ability to plan. It was to do with ideology and what the character values and considers important.

The reason a character like the Joker is considered Chaotic Evil rather than Lawful despite the complicated plans he creates and executes is because his ultimate values and goals are Chaotic. He believes in the inherent disorder of the human condition and tries to tear down the veneer or order that (he believes) people like the Mafia or Harvey Dent hide behind. This would be the case even if he were a drooling idiot.

Or, to use another example, lets take the Comedian from Watchmen. He works for the US government, follows the rules set forth for him, and ultimately acts under the rule of "law". He's Chaotic Evil because he believes in none of it. For him the government is just a legitimate reason to continue his nihilistic crusade against other people. He doesn't care about structure or civilization or order. He thinks life is all a big joke and he acts on that. But he does it in an intelligent way that allows him to be legitimate. Chaotic Evil is not one thing, it's not a cartoon character, and it's not Stupid Evil.

On a separate note, I think you would be better served by not being rude and accusatory towards the people who are attempting to help you.

[wumpus]

First, the alignments are a bit different system to system and edition to edition.

Even if you want to say all CE people are "brutal and unsophisticated ", and they are all not, the definition of the words matters. What is "brutal" to one person in not to another, and sophistication is a huge can of worms.

And even if you have them all the same, they can still have plans.

Let's take Sauron as CE, his plan was "attack the world....oh, and find that one ring". I guess you could say it was brutal and unsophisticated, but it was a plan. Thantos from Marvel comics is a good example of chaotic evil, and he is smart and always has a plan.

Sauron's long term plan included learning ringlore from the elves, "helping" them build a number of rings for themselves, dwarves, and men, and finally forging the one ring. After that it was a matter of breeding enough orcs to defeat the combined armies of men and elves. Entire plan: started at the start of the second age, ended with the third age.

Still no reason to doubt he was chaotic evil. No real law other than *obey the mighty* in Sauron's armies. His long term planning had more to do with his immortality: presumably it was seen as chaotic evil by elves, and incomprehensible evil by men. One other reason for him to be chaotic is that he (and Morgoth) may have been fighting law as long as they have been fighting good.

Don't get trapped in the "nine possible personalities of D&D". It is bad characterization and bad gaming.