Killing Lord Strodd

[8BitNinja]

Hello Everyone,

I have never played the Ravenloft D&D campaign, but I do know some things about it, and I do know about how there is a vile ruler named Lord Strodd

What do you guys think it would take to kill him? Have any of you tried? Is it outright impossible?

[EvilestWeevil]

If you want more information on Strahd, you can pick up a copy or audio version of I, Strahd. The book is how he became the vampire lord of Barovia. But as the quote goes “I, Strahd, AM the land!”

[Khedrac]

The problem (if I remember correctly) with killing any of the domain rules of the Ravenloft demiplane - "the Domains of Dread" - is that it's not up to you, it is up to the "Dark Powers" as to whether they are willing to let the domain ruler die.
You have to be pretty tough to get a potential kill result, but then it's more of a question "have they suffered enough yet?" as to whether the die.

The other answer is "no" - Strahd is already dead (he's a vampire).

[Red Fel]

The problem (if I remember correctly) with killing any of the domain rules of the Ravenloft demiplane - "the Domains of Dread" - is that it's not up to you, it is up to the "Dark Powers" as to whether they are willing to let the domain ruler die.
You have to be pretty tough to get a potential kill result, but then it's more of a question "have they suffered enough yet?" as to whether the die.

The other answer is "no" - Strahd is already dead (he's a vampire).

This. The thing to remember is that Ravenloft is about suffering. If you're there, it's either because (1) the universe has decreed that you haven't suffered enough, and shall therefore suffer, or (2) you're really, really unlucky, which coincidentally is a lot like the universe decreeing that you haven't suffered enough.

The point is that it's not about killing the rulers of the domains in Ravenloft. They're more like set pieces than actual killable characters. They are intrinsically tied to their domains - that is, each region of Ravenloft is designed to maximize the suffering of its ruler. Even as it empowers them, it imprisons them. And then you have the aforementioned Dark Powers, beings beyond comprehension who take particular glee in the unceasing anguish of the rulers of Ravenloft. Do you really think they will let the PCs ruin their fun? Even assuming the PCs could take on a being who, within his domain, is more or less a god, do you honestly think the Dark Powers would let Strahd stay down?

Your DM doesn't send the PCs to Ravenloft to fight the monsters. He sends them there to suffer. Killing the boss and winning the game isn't really an option at that point.

Friends don't let friends use Ravenloft.

[8BitNinja]

The problem (if I remember correctly) with killing any of the domain rules of the Ravenloft demiplane - "the Domains of Dread" - is that it's not up to you, it is up to the "Dark Powers" as to whether they are willing to let the domain ruler die.
You have to be pretty tough to get a potential kill result, but then it's more of a question "have they suffered enough yet?" as to whether the die.

The other answer is "no" - Strahd is already dead (he's a vampire).

I know he's a vampire, so one of the things I was wondering was if normal vampire weaknesses would work

If you want more information on Strahd, you can pick up a copy or audio version of I, Strahd. The book is how he became the vampire lord of Barovia. But as the quote goes “I, Strahd, AM the land!”

I'll take a look at it, thanks

This. The thing to remember is that Ravenloft is about suffering. If you're there, it's either because (1) the universe has decreed that you haven't suffered enough, and shall therefore suffer, or (2) you're really, really unlucky, which coincidentally is a lot like the universe decreeing that you haven't suffered enough.

The point is that it's not about killing the rulers of the domains in Ravenloft. They're more like set pieces than actual killable characters. They are intrinsically tied to their domains - that is, each region of Ravenloft is designed to maximize the suffering of its ruler. Even as it empowers them, it imprisons them. And then you have the aforementioned Dark Powers, beings beyond comprehension who take particular glee in the unceasing anguish of the rulers of Ravenloft. Do you really think they will let the PCs ruin their fun? Even assuming the PCs could take on a being who, within his domain, is more or less a god, do you honestly think the Dark Powers would let Strahd stay down?

Your DM doesn't send the PCs to Ravenloft to fight the monsters. He sends them there to suffer. Killing the boss and winning the game isn't really an option at that point.

Friends don't let friends use Ravenloft.

I'm pretty sure they said something like this in The Spoony Experiment when they talked about Ravenloft, thanks for reminding me

[Millennium]

It depends, in large part, on exactly what you're playing. If you're playing the original 1e Castle Ravenloft module, or 2e's House of Strahd, or 3.5e's Expedition, then Strahd is just a vampire. He's an extraordinarily powerful vampire, yes, sometimes even with some immunities beyond the standard weaknesses, but he is fundamentally a vampire, and can be killed in any of the ways that any vampire could (or at least most of them).

If you're talking about the Ravenloft campaign setting, then although Strahd was once a vampire, and still carries the form of one, the Dark Powers have made their pawn/plaything into something that is both more and less than what he was. This is arguably the closest thing that TSR (this predates Wizards) ever came to codifying a mechanic for plot immunity, and something very similar holds true for all of the dark lords. He dies when the Dark Powers say that he dies. He can be "killed" in the normal ways that beings of his former kind (i.e. vampires) can, if the Dark Powers decide that this fits their agenda. And it often does, because death is usually an unpleasant experience, and the Dark Powers are all about suffering. If it fit their agenda, he could even be killed in ways that vampires normally shouldn't die from. But whatever the manner of his demise, he does not stay dead unless they allow it. He cannot stay dead unless they allow it. And they are not inclined to allow it.

So, how do you kill Strahd off for good? Any way you can convince the Dark Powers to let you kill him. The problem is convincing them.

[8BitNinja]

So, how do you kill Strahd off for good? Any way you can convince the Dark Powers to let you kill him. The problem is convincing them.

But what if I roll really good for charisma?

[goto124]

How long does he need to stay dead anyway?

[Red Fel]

But what if I roll really good for charisma?

Roll your character's Charisma versus your DM's raised eyebrow.

That's the point. The Dark Powers aren't like NPCs with whom you can meet, chat, share a cup of tea and a humorous anecdote. They are plot uncarnate - the unembodied embodiment of the DM's will. You can't negotiate with them any more than you can negotiate with the weather. (Control Weather is not a negotiation, it is an ultimatum.)

It's not about Charisma. It's about coming up with a reason that Strahd's suffering needs to end. If anything, that's more an exercise of Int, but I still wouldn't let the player solve that with a die roll.

[goto124]

Roll your character's Charisma versus your DM's raised eyebrow.

What's the DC of these raise eyebrows?

[Âmesang]

If it helps, here's some stats for the ol' Count: Strahd von Zarovich.
Plus the vampire lord template.

[8BitNinja]

If it helps, here's some stats for the ol' Count: Strahd von Zarovich.
Plus the vampire lord template.

Thank you for this, maybe I'll get some friends together and we'll go on a quest to kill Strahd

[BRC]

Roll your character's Charisma versus your DM's raised eyebrow.

That's the point. The Dark Powers aren't like NPCs with whom you can meet, chat, share a cup of tea and a humorous anecdote. They are plot uncarnate - the unembodied embodiment of the DM's will. You can't negotiate with them any more than you can negotiate with the weather. (Control Weather is not a negotiation, it is an ultimatum.)

It's not about Charisma. It's about coming up with a reason that Strahd's suffering needs to end. If anything, that's more an exercise of Int, but I still wouldn't let the player solve that with a die roll.

So, you have to figure out how to arrange some situation that sucks more for Strahd than being enternally trapped in a realm where he wields incredible power, but is unable to be happy, and is in fact forced through a cycle of misery and suffering designed to specifically target him?

[Traab]

On the other hand, the DM may say sure, then tell you all about how now your characters have proven themselves worthy to take his place as the lord of the realm and the recipients of all that suffering. Congrats, they are now stuck there forever, or until the dark powers find a better option and finally allow you to truly die.

[Velaryon]

I know he's a vampire, so one of the things I was wondering was if normal vampire weaknesses would work

In theory yes, but realistically it's not going to happen, as I'll explain in a moment.

It depends, in large part, on exactly what you're playing. If you're playing the original 1e Castle Ravenloft module, or 2e's House of Strahd, or 3.5e's Expedition, then Strahd is just a vampire. He's an extraordinarily powerful vampire, yes, sometimes even with some immunities beyond the standard weaknesses, but he is fundamentally a vampire, and can be killed in any of the ways that any vampire could (or at least most of them).

Snipped the post for length, but this is a good explanation. Ravenloft started off as a one-off adventure that could be plopped into a campaign in whatever world you happened to be playing in. It was popular, so they made more. Eventually they put it together into a campaign setting back in I believe the AD&D days, then in 3rd edition licensed it out to a third party company for awhile before getting the license back and releasing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which came around full circle back to an adventure that you can drop into whatever world you choose.

So basically, there are several different versions of Strahd, much as there are several different versions of, say, a Marvel or DC comics character. They range in power from the BBEG of the adventure who is of a middling CR, to the 3e campaign setting version who was an epic-level challenge that few if any adventurers could ever hope to even inconvenience, let alone defeat.

But on top of his class levels and vampire template, there are a couple of other factors"

1. The campaign setting included age categories for vampires, similar to how it works for dragons. The older the got, the more their powers and ability scores increased. Strahd wasn't the oldest category, but he was up there, making his vampire stats significantly higher than what the default D&D vampire template gives.

2. Strahd's "I am the land" line that someone quoted earlier is more than just the arrogance of a ruler. He is literally tied to the land of Barovia, which gives him additional powers such as the ability to prevent people from leaving the borders of his land by conjuring up a choking poisonous mist that completely encircles the land. Of course, that connection also prevents him from ever leaving Barovia himself, so if you do somehow get out, he at least cannot pursue you (directly).

3. As has also been mentioned, the Dark Powers are what put Strahd in this position in the first place, and are what keeps him this way. Even if a plucky band of adventurers manage to stake him, cut off his head, and burn the body as you do with vamps, the Dark Powers might be able to just undo that and bring him back so they can begin tormenting him* again. That said, the Dark Powers are mysterious and unexplained, at least in the sources I'm familiar with, and I know of no examples of them actually just rewriting reality to keep one of their prisoners like this. But it's entirely possible that they can.

*If anyone is unfamiliar with the nature of his torment, I can explain that, but it's a rather large spoiler for the adventure(s) he's used in.

[8BitNinja]

In theory yes, but realistically it's not going to happen, as I'll explain in a moment.



Snipped the post for length, but this is a good explanation. Ravenloft started off as a one-off adventure that could be plopped into a campaign in whatever world you happened to be playing in. It was popular, so they made more. Eventually they put it together into a campaign setting back in I believe the AD&D days, then in 3rd edition licensed it out to a third party company for awhile before getting the license back and releasing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which came around full circle back to an adventure that you can drop into whatever world you choose.

So basically, there are several different versions of Strahd, much as there are several different versions of, say, a Marvel or DC comics character. They range in power from the BBEG of the adventure who is of a middling CR, to the 3e campaign setting version who was an epic-level challenge that few if any adventurers could ever hope to even inconvenience, let alone defeat.

But on top of his class levels and vampire template, there are a couple of other factors"

1. The campaign setting included age categories for vampires, similar to how it works for dragons. The older the got, the more their powers and ability scores increased. Strahd wasn't the oldest category, but he was up there, making his vampire stats significantly higher than what the default D&D vampire template gives.

2. Strahd's "I am the land" line that someone quoted earlier is more than just the arrogance of a ruler. He is literally tied to the land of Barovia, which gives him additional powers such as the ability to prevent people from leaving the borders of his land by conjuring up a choking poisonous mist that completely encircles the land. Of course, that connection also prevents him from ever leaving Barovia himself, so if you do somehow get out, he at least cannot pursue you (directly).

3. As has also been mentioned, the Dark Powers are what put Strahd in this position in the first place, and are what keeps him this way. Even if a plucky band of adventurers manage to stake him, cut off his head, and burn the body as you do with vamps, the Dark Powers might be able to just undo that and bring him back so they can begin tormenting him* again. That said, the Dark Powers are mysterious and unexplained, at least in the sources I'm familiar with, and I know of no examples of them actually just rewriting reality to keep one of their prisoners like this. But it's entirely possible that they can.

*If anyone is unfamiliar with the nature of his torment, I can explain that, but it's a rather large spoiler for the adventure(s) he's used in.

Okay, so you would need to convince the Dark Powers that Strahd deserved to die. But knowing that the Dark Powers reward evil acts, they probably wouldn't let you kill him. Besides, If the Dark Powers wanted him dead, they would do it themselves

[Mordar]

Okay, so you would need to convince the Dark Powers that Strahd deserved to die. But knowing that the Dark Powers reward evil acts, they probably wouldn't let you kill him. Besides, If the Dark Powers wanted him dead, they would do it themselves

It isn't so much that they reward evil acts...in fact, Strahd is being punished for an evil act...it is that they allow some modicum of evil within the realms to serve as a punishment for creatures lower down the food chain, if you will. It is a little complicated, but Ravenloft kind of boils down to the whole having your liver/spleen/eyes pecked out and eaten every day to then have them grow back over the night so the birds can start fresh in the morning...at least for the big names living there.
- M

[Flickerdart]

There's always the nuclear option - if Strahd cannot die for as long as the Dark Powers control Ravenloft, then Ravenloft must be destroyed! Stir up a little Pandorym action and watch the fireworks.

Note: This may be overkill.

[Âmesang]

See if you can take the Lord Soth approach and get Strahd to just stop caring about whatever the Dark Powers do to him; then maybe the Dark Powers will get bored and kick him out. Then he's fair game.

[Velaryon]

Okay, so you would need to convince the Dark Powers that Strahd deserved to die. But knowing that the Dark Powers reward evil acts, they probably wouldn't let you kill him. Besides, If the Dark Powers wanted him dead, they would do it themselves

The problem with the "convince the Dark Powers" plan is that in-universe, their mere existence is known only to a few of the most powerful beings (i.e. the smarter and more self-aware of the people that the Dark Powers have imprisoned), and even then it's really more conjecture than knowledge.

The focus of the setting is really on the cursed beings, not who/what is doing the cursing. Unless something has changed in 4th or 5th edition, they've never explicitly defined what the Dark Powers are or why they do what they do. Which of course means that's up to the DM.

See if you can take the Lord Soth approach and get Strahd to just stop caring about whatever the Dark Powers do to him; then maybe the Dark Powers will get bored and kick him out. Then he's fair game.

Ignoring the part where Soth only got to leave because Weis and Hickman threw a hissy fit until he was put back in Krynn, the nature of their respective curses were very different.

Spoiler: Soth, Strahd, and their respective Ravenloft stories. Not sure it needs a spoiler but just in case...

Show

Soth was pretty much harassed all the time by a bunch of banshees constantly taunting him and reminding him of his crimes. All he did was pretty much just sit there and eventually tune them out, until the events of Spectre of the Black Rose which resulted in him going back to Krynn.

Strahd, on the other hand, mostly chills in his castle and lets his bureaucracy run his country for him, as I understand it. But every generation or so, the woman he loves (as he understands love, anyway) is reborn/reincarnated, and he tries all over again to win her love, which somehow always results in her tragic death. Strahd's obsession is so strong that he always believes that he can win her love and stop her from dying the next time. His passions are very much alive, unlike Soth (he explicitly contrasts himself against other undead, especially the lich Azalin Rex, in this regard). In theory, if he could just get over her and move on, he would cease to be bothered by his torment and probably the Dark Powers would stop bothering with him. But since Strahd is a gothic horror villain, he's driven by his obsession and most likely isn't ever going to stop of his own accord.

[tomandtish]

On the other hand, the DM may say sure, then tell you all about how now your characters have proven themselves worthy to take his place as the lord of the realm and the recipients of all that suffering. Congrats, they are now stuck there forever, or until the dark powers find a better option and finally allow you to truly die.

Yep. One of the worst case scenarios for you is drawing the attention of the Dark Powers.

The problem with the "convince the Dark Powers" plan is that in-universe, their mere existence is known only to a few of the most powerful beings (i.e. the smarter and more self-aware of the people that the Dark Powers have imprisoned), and even then it's really more conjecture than knowledge.

The focus of the setting is really on the cursed beings, not who/what is doing the cursing. Unless something has changed in 4th or 5th edition, they've never explicitly defined what the Dark Powers are or why they do what they do. Which of course means that's up to the DM.


Ignoring the part where Soth only got to leave because Weis and Hickman threw a hissy fit until he was put back in Krynn, the nature of their respective curses were very different.

Spoiler: Soth, Strahd, and their respective Ravenloft stories. Not sure it needs a spoiler but just in case...

Show

Soth was pretty much harassed all the time by a bunch of banshees constantly taunting him and reminding him of his crimes. All he did was pretty much just sit there and eventually tune them out, until the events of Spectre of the Black Rose which resulted in him going back to Krynn.

Strahd, on the other hand, mostly chills in his castle and lets his bureaucracy run his country for him, as I understand it. But every generation or so, the woman he loves (as he understands love, anyway) is reborn/reincarnated, and he tries all over again to win her love, which somehow always results in her tragic death. Strahd's obsession is so strong that he always believes that he can win her love and stop her from dying the next time. His passions are very much alive, unlike Soth (he explicitly contrasts himself against other undead, especially the lich Azalin Rex, in this regard). In theory, if he could just get over her and move on, he would cease to be bothered by his torment and probably the Dark Powers would stop bothering with him. But since Strahd is a gothic horror villain, he's driven by his obsession and most likely isn't ever going to stop of his own accord.

Actually,

Spoiler: Soth

Show

Soth kind of ran into the same problem. In addition to the banshees (which were even worse than the ones in his place on Krynn because they were getting details wrong), he kept trying to hunt down Kitiara, but had no luck doing so. So not only was he stuck in a version of his torment where some of the details were wrong (and remember, he at least took pride in doing what he did by his choice), but he wanted to possess Kit and continually failed to capture her as well.

And as said, he ended up winning free because Weiss and Hickman came back, although Lowder stated that he never intended it to be permanent. From Lowder:

Spoiler: Lowder's comments

Show

It was always my intention to have Soth's stay in Ravenloft a temporary one, and there was no pressure from WotC for me to plot the end of Spectre a certain way. I was on board with the idea of Soth returning to Krynn from the start.

When Knight of the Black Rose was planned, Margaret and Tracy were on bad terms with TSR, not working on anything with the company. As RL fiction line editor, I offered them both the chance to have input on the project, and Tracy the chance to write the book, but they declined. I understand why.

But I made it clear to them at the time Knight was proposed that I would do all I could to make certain Soth was not changed in such a way that he would be undermined when, or if, they came back to TSR to work on the DL line. When I could not find a writer who was capable of writing Knight without monkeying with Soth, the head of the department (Mary Kirchoff again) stepped in and asked me to take the assignment. It was an assignment I accepted somewhat reluctantly, I must admit. But it worked out for the best, I think.

In terms of continuity, I don't think it matters when Soth returns to Krynn in the DL timeline. Time works differently in the Mists, so he could be gone five minutes from Krynn, yet spend decades in the Dark Domains.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

But yeah, a successful Ravenloft campaign is one where you escape.

[Âmesang]

That reminds me; if I ever get the chance to run 2nd Edition I need to try out Venca Lives!/Vecna Reborn/Die, Vecna, Die!

[JAL_1138]

That reminds me; if I ever get the chance to run 2nd Edition I need to try out Venca Lives!/Vecna Reborn/Die, Vecna, Die!

My advice? Don't. Die Vecna Die is absolute crap that manages to bork three settings at once.

Anyway, back to Strahd:

It'd be practically impossible, but probably the beat way to get rid of Strahd--or rather to persuade the Dark Powers to do it--is to get him to realize and accept that it's his own fault, that pursuing his love will never work, and to give up. To repent and accede to his fate, essentially. Not just to stop caring, but accept it.

For the Dark Powers, it'd be boring to torment someone who believes they deserve it, which not a single Darklord does.

This will never, practically speaking, happen. Strahd is basically incapable of it. He believes with every single fiber of his being that he will one day outwit the Dark Powers and win his love's heart. It'd be like persuading air to be solid or fire to be cold without magic. It's what he is, and you're not going to change that unless the DM really, really wants you to.

[8BitNinja]

See if you can take the Lord Soth approach and get Strahd to just stop caring about whatever the Dark Powers do to him; then maybe the Dark Powers will get bored and kick him out. Then he's fair game.

Convince him to get off of his dark throne? How hard could that be?

Is it hard?

[Âmesang]

Is the throne hard? Would the undead need lumbar support? Maybe if you sneak a +1 alchemical silver tack on there…

It'd be like persuading air to be solid or fire to be cold without magic. It's what he is, and you're not going to change that unless the DM really, really wants you to.

Or just make an epic Craft check. DC 100?

[The Glyphstone]

Offer yourself to take Strahd's place. The Dark Powers might accept a trade-off, letting Strahd go in exchange for someone new to torment in his place.

[tomandtish]

Except the powers don't generally seem to work that way. Why do that when (if you seem to be someone they want to torment) they can just leave you stuck there and create your own realm of torment?

[NRSASD]

As others have said, killing Strahd really isn't possible. Mildly inconveniencing him while your party plane shifts away is about the best you can hope for. Strahd isn't an antagonist so much as he is a feature of the landscape. The Dark Powers are the only ones who can end him, and everything else is just petty annoyances.

It's a bit like trying to kill a tornado. You can try to fight it, and even if through some absurd miracle you succeed, it'll always be back because the air you breathe is responsible for creating it. Same is true of evil in Ravenloft. Strahd just happens to be one classy windstorm.

[Faily]

Offer yourself to take Strahd's place. The Dark Powers might accept a trade-off, letting Strahd go in exchange for someone new to torment in his place.

Or they'll take the offer and not give anything in return. Now they can have TWO things to play with!

[8BitNinja]

As others have said, killing Strahd really isn't possible. Mildly inconveniencing him while your party plane shifts away is about the best you can hope for. Strahd isn't an antagonist so much as he is a feature of the landscape. The Dark Powers are the only ones who can end him, and everything else is just petty annoyances.

It's a bit like trying to kill a tornado. You can try to fight it, and even if through some absurd miracle you succeed, it'll always be back because the air you breathe is responsible for creating it. Same is true of evil in Ravenloft. Strahd just happens to be one classy windstorm.

Just in Ravenloft? What about real life?