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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Ya know what's weird? Why isn't there a Good-aligned counterpart to the succubus? Some kind of sexy lady angel what tempts people into doing good things with cuteness. Or for that matter, the incubus.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    As far as I know, there isn't. And honestly, it would defeat the purpose of doing Good, since Good is supposed to be altruistic and "some sexy angel lady who tempts people" isn't altruistic in nature.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Because kittens are the ultimate pinnacle of cuteness and they tempt one not towards good but towards the deepest evils, they make erinyes and succubi both look good. Cuteness, not lust is the ultimate path to darkness!


    Serious face: Because at least as defined by D&D such deeds would not be good aligned (altruistic) they'd be neutral (done simply for the prospect of personal gain) which would mean that it'd be a celestial whose actions would defy mortals the chance to be good. Also because celestials are not heavy on recruitment drives since while some things are always Evil regardless of motivations (Evil spells), for acts to be Good they must be done for Good reasons and it's very, very hard to tempt someone into doing something Good as it requires it to be freely chosen for the right reasons.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Hmm, could something like an angel of love work? A being that encourages others to do good by making them feel genuinely beautiful and loved? I vaguely remember something like that being part of Eilistraee's MO in Forgotten Realms, reminding drow that they aren't hated, that they can redeem themselves, and that they'll be welcomed back if they do.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    I started a thread on this topic a while back, making the point that sex being a weapon of the forces of evil seems really puritan and backwards. I proposed the existence of an angel counterpart who either worked healing magic or lifted a person's spirit through physical intimacy.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...succubi-incubi
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I started a thread on this topic a while back, making the point that sex being a weapon of the forces of evil seems really puritan and backwards. I proposed the existence of an angel counterpart who either worked healing magic or lifted a person's spirit through physical intimacy.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...succubi-incubi
    I generally agree, it does sort of show a worrying trend. I mean, it's come to the point that it's a standard rule of thumb that if any female NPC shows sexual interest in a party member, that NPC is probably evil. A succubus, a vampire, something else... Honestly, it's a problem with a lot of human societies, though, it's not just a feature of the game. For some reason, we tend to treat anything with sexual connotations as inherently evil at worst, and at best, as taboo or just as a joke.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    I generally agree, it does sort of show a worrying trend. I mean, it's come to the point that it's a standard rule of thumb that if any female NPC shows sexual interest in a party member, that NPC is probably evil. A succubus, a vampire, something else... Honestly, it's a problem with a lot of human societies, though, it's not just a feature of the game. For some reason, we tend to treat anything with sexual connotations as inherently evil at worst, and at best, as taboo or just as a joke.
    While good can be sexy, using sex as coercion is pretty definitely not in the Good MO, for reasons touched upon above. You can be good and enjoy sex, but I have a difficult time believing in the actual goodness of anyone in it just for the sex.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Perhaps an entity that helps people find love? Like a guardian angel/wingman? (Heh, wingman with wings.)

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
    Perhaps an entity that helps people find love? Like a guardian angel/wingman? (Heh, wingman with wings.)
    Perhaps some sort of diaper wearing cherub with a bow and arrow? We could name him cupid!
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Well now I feel stupid.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
    Well now I feel stupid cupid.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaril View Post
    Hmm, could something like an angel of love work? A being that encourages others to do good by making them feel genuinely beautiful and loved? I vaguely remember something like that being part of Eilistraee's MO in Forgotten Realms, reminding drow that they aren't hated, that they can redeem themselves, and that they'll be welcomed back if they do.
    See that could be a pretty good entity, not rewarding with sex, but reminding that good is its own reward because life isn't a 0 sum game and what goes around comes around; that action to help others ends up helping everyone and things end up better for all (your basic reason altruism exists).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
    Perhaps an entity that helps people find love? Like a guardian angel/wingman? (Heh, wingman with wings.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Perhaps some sort of diaper wearing cherub with a bow and arrow? We could name him cupid!
    And this is the actual Good aligned equivalent to a succubus. It just doesn't tempt mortals, or go 'do X and I'll reward you' it spreads happiness and trusts that happy people are Good people.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
    Perhaps an entity that helps people find love? Like a guardian angel/wingman? (Heh, wingman with wings.)
    ...so, Cupids?

    Anyways, the Good-aligned sexy-monsters do have good intentions: recruiting for Team Good. By treating people nice (in varying ways, the point is more about makin' the mortals feel validated rather than gettin' in their underpants...or not), they'd teach 'em that doing good feels good. Their quarry don't have to start out as good people, they become good people by spending time around a nice Celestial who treats them nice.

    Think of it this way: If all it takes to get someone from being Evil or Neutral into being overtly Good is tempting them with the hypothetical scenario of them getting their hands on some chubby-bubbly angelgirl booty or being all hugged up in the strong, comforting arms of a reassuringly handsome cosmic paragon...that would be worth it, no?

    Additionally, it would be plainly suicidal, tactically speaking, for the Upper Planes to not have outreach programs in the Prime Material given all the shenanigans Fiends get up to in the realms of mortals.

    There has to be at least one Paladin who aspired to Paladin-hood to no longer feel fear or get headcolds. That there are personal benefits to being and doing Good doesn't make it not Good. That it is emotionally satisfying to be benevolent doesn't negate that benevolence.

    Sexual feelings can being out the worst or the best in people. A good-aligned sexy-monster would be angling to inspire the latter.

    ...and now I'm trying to picture what kind of sexy monster them Lawful Neutral Mordon types send after people to try and seduce them into being accountants.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Given that Good is often associated with the trappings of medieval European christian and chivalric morality, the Good counterpart to the Succubus would technically be an Angel of Chastity.

    I suspect it would look like an elderly woman with curlers in her hair and a disapproving expression. Whenever anyone tries to engage in even semi-lewd behavior nearby it makes a point of interrupting them and making them feel too awkward to keep going, followed by a good old fashioned haranguing.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    The first thing that sprung to my mind from 3.5 was devas, specifically the movanic deva. But it turns out they're not all that sex-oriented, and the main thing that made me think they were is that they don't like clothes -- they "reluctantly clothe themselves in simple loincloths or coverings".

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    Why isn't there a Good-aligned counterpart to the succubus? Some kind of sexy lady angel what tempts people into doing good things with cuteness. Or for that matter, the incubus.
    D&D angels are based off Abrahamic traditions, in which angels, while being stunningly beautiful, embody qualities like chastity and purity. Succubi are bad there precisely because they tempt people into premarital extramarital sex (adultery, and banging people you're not going to marry are big no-nos), and then they do something bad like blackmail people into doing something horrible, or create some hellspawn. There's actually a story in which some mortals banged some angels; The religion's all-powerful and all-knowing god (who is never wrong) was so angry that he basically nuked the mortals' entire city in response.

    As for Incubi, the 5th edition dnd monster manual says that male succubi are called incubi, and use the same game statistics


    I'm sure you can find an adult comic which contains the sort of creature you're looking for. And I'm sure someone's written up such creatures too.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2016-02-29 at 07:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    This would require that a celestial act in a non-combat fashion; this is something they are. Deeply unsuited for.

    It's a flaw in the game build, I think,that good outsiders have a far smaller group that does anything besides guard,hunt,fight,kill. This disproportion is even worse in the LG angels. The evil outsiders have tempters, accountants, etc. They DO stuff to a degree that angels do not. This is supposed to be why the good Pc's are needed but I think makes a great excuse for why the world is filled with cruelty, spite, and pain.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Changing the cherub Cupid into the angelic race of cupids, and making them look more like
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    than anything in diapers, I could imagine them having a very relaxed and what-she-said approach to helping people discover love, find the one, get over a broken heart, and so on. All in a very modern approach to relationships. They could even be hermaphroditic shapechangers just like some depictions of the succubi/incubi.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    You should check out Apsaras from Hindu mythology, which are essentially this - they serve as spouses and lovers to virtuous beings as well as gods, and they spend a lot of their time just being beautiful, dancing around, inspiring people, and rolling dice.
    Last edited by raygun goth; 2016-02-29 at 11:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    I can easily think of a Neutral counterpart to the succubus/incubus. No, no details, sorry.

    I've read somewhere that lust isn't about sex, but about emotions. In that sense, succubi tempt mortals into pursuing their desired emotions at the expense of everyone and everything else.

    For the Good side, maybe we could make emotion a two-way street. Good succubi could emphasize on giving and receiving, on how giving can be a gift to both you and your partner, that selflessness (not selfishness) is the way to fulfillment.

    I've considering making the Good side have many people from different races, and anywhere along the LGBT spectrum... while the Evil side succubi are all voluptuous humanoid women. I'm not sure if this really works, if only because the Evil side limiting themselves like that seems fairly stupid. But then it seems to work well IRL...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    There's actually a story in which some mortals banged some angels; The religion's all-powerful and all-knowing god (who is never wrong) was so angry that he basically nuked the mortals' entire city in response.
    Imagine those mortals are high-level wizard PCs. This would be an epic campaign, powerful wo/men firing rockets at one another over petty matters

    Quote Originally Posted by raygun goth View Post
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    Last edited by goto124; 2016-02-29 at 10:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I started a thread on this topic a while back, making the point that sex being a weapon of the forces of evil seems really puritan and backwards. I proposed the existence of an angel counterpart who either worked healing magic or lifted a person's spirit through physical intimacy.
    What you've proposed in the linked thread is exactly what actual succubi usually do in my games. Murdering or brainwashing anyone who was stupid enough to kiss you as well as outright charging for sex with evil deeds just aren't viable long-term corruption programs. If you become known for this, you will only be summoned by people who are already morally bankrupt - and if not to use agains their rivals, then for the thrill of screwing a slave that would have killed them if it only could. If, on the other hand, summoning a succubus usually means free sex, including whatever fetishes you might have, with no visible strings attached, why, this is perfect inducement for people who are powerful enough to summon a succubus (but not powerful enough to feel 100% secure doing so).

    And then succubus will use the fact that there is no such thing as sex without strings attached, even if those strings take time to manifest. A summoner is lonely and too insecure to approach a living woman? Make him damn himself dangling the lure of true (except, of course, not) love before him. A summoner is hedonistic and seeks sex of superior quality? Oversatiate him and then lure into ever-greater perversion, until he is willing to snuff people for stimulation. A summoner simply wants to get his physical needs out of the way without any emotional attachment to other people? Be such a perfectly convenient and servile sexbot that no living person would ever compare, even if he won't grow dependent without noticing, he would never again have a need to treat any people other than himself, as, well, peope. A summoner shows a streak of desire for domination? Make a show of trying to resist the deal he is pushing on you, so that his secret fantasy would be fullfilled in a way that stains his soul. Of course, just dominating and energy draining a summoner is still an option, if he is it can be done without leaving too much evidence about what happened, and the summoner's soul just is not worth a significant time investment. It is just not even close to default.
    Last edited by FatR; 2016-03-01 at 04:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    To be honest I've never really gotten the hang of that sort of seduction.

    Most horror stories of succubi seem to end up with "and the succubus sucked all the class levels out of the stupid PC". A Good counterpart to THIS succubus would... give positive energy upon intimate contact?

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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    I'm can just imagine some cute little critter saying, "If you stop murdering, I promise I'll be your friend!"
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Given that Good is often associated with the trappings of medieval European christian and chivalric morality, the Good counterpart to the Succubus would technically be an Angel of Chastity.
    I think medieval chastity had more to do with Victorian romances than historical fact. A woman could divorce a husband who didn't do his duty in bed.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Squish View Post
    I generally agree, it does sort of show a worrying trend. I mean, it's come to the point that it's a standard rule of thumb that if any female NPC shows sexual interest in a party member, that NPC is probably evil. A succubus, a vampire, something else... Honestly, it's a problem with a lot of human societies, though, it's not just a feature of the game. For some reason, we tend to treat anything with sexual connotations as inherently evil at worst, and at best, as taboo or just as a joke.
    I think it's less this, and more that most games don't include sex by default. If "the barmaid flirts with X and they later go upstairs together" is never present in normal resting/time-passing scenes, then sex and sexual interest becomes one of Those Details, that come up only when it's relevant to the plot or when it's part of an obstacle or threat.

    If the DM thinks 'this is an adventure game, not a game about sex' and sex never comes up, you're probably going to be on guard when some pretty lady starts hitting on your character because it's out of place and the DM's logic means you know this isn't just going to be a one-night stand, but rather something more dangerous or plot-relevant.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Quote Originally Posted by raygun goth View Post
    You should check out Apsaras from Hindu mythology, which are essentially this - they serve as spouses and lovers to virtuous beings as well as gods, and they spend a lot of their time just being beautiful, dancing around, inspiring people, and rolling dice.
    Hell, no. The whole point of Apsaras being spouses and lovers of virtuous humans is exactly to turn them away from the path of virtue and self-mortification, so they would'nt gain godly powers from uncaring LN overdeity Brahma and threaten the World Order.

    You know, I'm tempted(heh) to go greek on this. The Graces might be exactly, what we seek. To a lesser extend, Muses.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Unicorns, but they are always platonic.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Pathfinder has a celestial succubus in the form of the Gancanagh Azata.
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    Default Re: Good Counterpart to the Succubus?

    Good can be hard
    The pinnacle of Good requires both Good ends (Intent) and Good means (Actions)

    So any Good counterpart would have to remain consistent with these and also promote these. However their is nothing innately evil about sex.

    One of the many ways the celestials can encourage goodness is by example. Through example they can show that despite occasionally being hard one can stay true. Through example they can show that people tend to agree with Good ends. "We want the same things and those things can be done the good way".

    With that in mid how would the counterpart to the succubus/devil counterpart(I forget the name) be? It would be showing by example that we all value the good ends of love and that one can love in a virtuous manner. There can be the sideproduct of Aasimars.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2016-03-01 at 10:17 AM.

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