Lolth, Lady Luck

[avr]

Yeah, I can see finding a busybody concerned with appearances irritating, especially if they have actual power - but actually detesting her? Does Wee Jas remind you of a particularly hateful real person?

[Winter_Wolf]

More like an archetype of many hateable people I know. If I knew an individual like her, I imagine there wouldn't be enough room for the both of us to coexist in the same organization. Anyway it's not to say I'd never use the material in a campaign, just that on a personal level I'm left with absolute loathing for the Stern Lady, her church, and her dogma. Possibly Nerull just became too sympathetic. Wee Jas write up was nothing if not highly successful in evoking strong reaction while being well thought out. Previously I could hardly have cared less about the official Wee Jas. It's like this Lolth write up; way more impact than the original. Just happens that Lolth is a lot more sympathetic and "my kind of deity". That probably says it all, really (or heavily implies it).

[LudicSavant]

It's fascinating how your write ups just completely change my opinions about some of these gods. Lolth is quite interesting. You made Nerull sympathetic. Nerull! Also I must say Wee Jas was well written, but I definitely detested her by the time I was done reading. Hoping for a Moradin write up.

It was my intention from the beginning to make each deity divisive. That is, each would be seen as a hero by some, and a villain by others, as is the case with pretty much anything with a substantive message (e.g. not just using buzzwords like "do what is right" but actually defining what it would mean to do right). It is always fun to see people having spirited in-character theological arguments about who, if anyone, is truly in the right and weaving together their own theories.

I also was careful to leave it ambiguous as to the true nature of the deities (including whether or not they actually exist), such as whether Nerull would agree with the extremists or the moderates. After all, if it wasn't faith-based, it wouldn't be a religion. Moreover, I believe that it is generally beneficial to present a setting from an in-world perspective rather than an omniscient narrator perspective (e.g. historical recordings can be and often are inaccurate, and this leaves room for all kinds of plot hooks).

[Rockphed]

Apparently the rule is that you can bump a thread after 45 days in the Homebrew forums if and only if you're the creator of that thread. So just PM me if you want to post something in one of the old threads and I'll bump it.

If the creator is posting something substantive, they can engage in as much thread necromancy as they want in their threads here in Homebrew. If you are just bumping it to bump it, then it is still a "please don't" rule violation.

As to who to do next, you have several stories running around. You have the Nerull Vs Wee Jas fight over Obad-hai. This drags in Lolth and Correllon as the parents of the first Obad-hai. Also Pelor as the opposite to the undead created during the Age of Winter. I think you should hold off on telling us Obad-hai's version of the story.

You have Erythnuul. Who was Erythnuul fighting again? Was that the first god of Fire? At any rate, the first god of Fire got ganked and 3 gods took his place. I want to hear more of that story.

[LudicSavant]

You have Erythnuul. Who was Erythnuul fighting again? Was that the first god of Fire? At any rate, the first god of Fire got ganked and 3 gods took his place. I want to hear more of that story.

Erythnul became a god only after the first god of Fire, the Forgotten One (for his name was ordered stricken from history), was slain by Hextor's forces. Since divinity cannot be created or destroyed (as detailed in the Erythnul post), the power had to go somewhere. While the identity was destroyed, new gods inherited the portfolio. A similar case occurred when Io was killed (resulting in the ascension of Bahamut and Tiamat).

Clues as to the Forgotten One's identity may be found strewn about the various deity entries (including those I'll be posting in the future), but I am not going to reveal it outright.

Sehanine Moonbow and Joramy will definitely tie in with that.

[Landis963]

What are those clues? All I've found was that The Forgotten One was once Sehanine's consort (she's described as "widower" on her page) and Obad-Hai's friend. Everything else is a blur. I'll PM you with my personal theory, but the clues are definitely not all there yet.

[LudicSavant]

What are those clues? All I've found was that The Forgotten One was once Sehanine's consort (she's described as "widower" on her page) and Obad-Hai's friend. Everything else is a blur. I'll PM you with my personal theory, but the clues are definitely not all there yet.

Yes, they are not all there yet. Some are in entries that aren't up yet.

[Blake Hannon]

Clues as to the Forgotten One's identity may be found strewn about the various deity entries (including those I'll be posting in the future), but I am not going to reveal it outright.

Did somebody say Imix?

The reason I ask is because it sounded like someone said Imix.

[Mith]

For a different perspective on Wee Jas, I see her as more of a personality that sets out to have everything run properly and smoothly. Her supposed vanity is the epitome of "Not a hair out of place". Everything has a place in the whole "for everything there is a season". As such, something's role can change over time, meaning it can grow and change into something new. So she isn't dictate the direct order of things (which is more of Hextor's shtick), but she allows for things to reach their full potential.

[LudicSavant]

Added some edits to the DC15 and DC25 entries. Listed here in bold.

Though exiled, Lolth is the weaver of fate still, subtly nudging the world along towards her intended conclusion: The Promised Day, which will result in either a utopia beyond our imagination or catastrophic global destruction, depending on whether the world is prepared to seize its destiny. Great coincidences are thought to be direct messages from Lolth. Depending on one's viewpoint, this can be cause for superstitious fear, or superstitious confidence. Either way, such events are powerful omens, and—particularly amongst the drow—can even motivate pilgrimages or life changes.

It was Lolth who urged the gods to appoint Wee Jas as psychopomp in the Age of Winter, despite Corellon's skepticism that she could fill such a crucial role. It is also said that it was she who urged—or even tricked—the gods to turn to undeath during the Age of Winter to save their followers, but this is disputed; some sources contend that Lolth took the blame to redirect Pelor's wrath, when in truth all of the gods had eagerly sought to harness undeath's power.

There are numerous variations of the story of Corellon and Lolth. For instance, a popular view amongst House Velanthe claims that Lolth was a goddess of minor stature in early times, one of many lesser deities with small portfolios working under the greater deities such as Corellon Larethian. According to it, dissatisfaction with her role began even earlier than her relationship with Corellon, and indeed it was her dissatisfaction that drove her to seduce him in the first place. Dissatisfied with the petty fates she was able to craft and desperate to secure the destiny she longed for for her children, she hoped to steal some of Corellon Larethian's vast divine power. She used her inside position to aid Gruumsh, supporting his ill-fated revolution in which he lost his eye... and indeed making such a fight possible in the first place against the two highest ranked deities. In some ways, Gruumsh holds his failure against Lolth, and their relationship is at best inconsistent and dysfunctional.

There is much speculation of Lolth's role in divine events, as it is uncertain how much influence she currently wields in the pantheon, and her influence as the weaver of fate (now shrouded by her portfolio of darkness and assassins) is nothing if not subtle. Many believe that she is plotting something big... while skeptics say that she is merely hiding from the forces that hunt her.

Pretty much just stuff that got cut out in earlier editing that I found space to slot back in.

Also, will be adding a new culture bit: A holiday, the Festival of Silks!

[Rockphed]

I think I figured out why I don't like your lolth write-up: too much drow. All your other write-up, except the forgotten ones, had deities who were generally accessible by any race. Lolth's write-up is almost more a drow write-up than about lolth. Since I wouldn't be using drow if I could help it, I was half bored when I wasn't horrified by the spiders.

[LudicSavant]

All your other write-up, except the forgotten ones, had deities who were generally accessible by any race. Lolth's write-up is almost more a drow write-up than about lolth. Since I wouldn't be using drow if I could help it, I was half bored when I wasn't horrified by the spiders.

Hmmm, that's not really the way I intended it (besides of course the extra section that was specifically about drow cultures dedicated to Lolth). She's Lady Luck for all of the races, and she has many faithful... even if not all of those faithful view her in a positive light (such as, say, the dashing rogue who tries to court Luck, tricking her in turn, or the man who goes on a pilgrimage because he feels he is dogged by evil coincidence, or the doomsayer on a street corner wailing about our misdeeds provoking the Promised Day).

The entry specifically mentions that her philosophy finds traction in many cultures, not just those of the drow. All of the sections on philosophy and beliefs can apply to any race, and that includes the bits about spiders.

Still, I can see what you mean; the drow race is being highlighted more than races have been highlighted in other writeups so far. I'll try to be more attentive to my tone and highlighting the ways in which deities apply to members of all races in the future.

Actually, maybe I'll give the Lolth writeup a once-over and try to highlight Lolth's non-drow aspects more clearly. I think I might be able to improve things on that front with a few small edits to change the tone.

Edit: Just made a couple tiny edits to the OP right now to that effect. Probably gonna do a couple more though.

[ThePurple]

Still, I can see what you mean; the drow race is being highlighted more than races have been highlighted in other writeups so far. I'll try to be more attentive to my tone and highlighting the ways in which deities apply to members of all races in the future.

I don't see a problem with a deity having a favored race, just like I assume Gruumsh favors orcs or Corellon favors elves, as long as the tenets of their religion speak to the beliefs and needs of other races well. A favored race doesn't have to mean that no one that belongs to the other races worships them or that no one in that favored race worships the other deities like it has traditionally in D&D. It just means that the deity gives special attention to a specific group of people.

It can just as easily be interpreted in the same way that the Israelites are said to be the favored people of YHWH, which doesn't mean that people that *aren't* genetically Israeli are excluded from the Hebrew faith nor does it mean that there are no people of Israeli descent that are not Jewish.

It could also be interpreted in the same way as the city-states of Greece, wherein the citizens of Athens were the favored of Athena and the Spartans were the favored of Ares but all of the Greeks still worshiped the entire pantheon (with the exception of some of the mystery religions, which could actually be the root of monotheistic worship of Lolth on the part of some drow cities).

It also doesn't mean that a deity needs to have a favored race, though. Deities with favored races should be the minority, not the majority.

[LudicSavant]

I don't see a problem with a deity having a favored race, just like I assume Gruumsh favors orcs or Corellon favors elves, as long as the tenets of their religion speak to the beliefs and needs of other races well. A favored race doesn't have to mean that no one that belongs to the other races worships them or that no one in that favored race worships the other deities like it has traditionally in D&D. It just means that the deity gives special attention to a specific group of people.

It can just as easily be interpreted in the same way that the Israelites are said to be the favored people of YHWH, which doesn't mean that people that *aren't* genetically Israeli are excluded from the Hebrew faith nor does it mean that there are no people of Israeli descent that are not Jewish.

It could also be interpreted in the same way as the city-states of Greece, wherein the citizens of Athens were the favored of Athena and the Spartans were the favored of Ares but all of the Greeks still worshiped the entire pantheon (with the exception of some of the mystery religions, which could actually be the root of monotheistic worship of Lolth on the part of some drow cities).

It also doesn't mean that a deity needs to have a favored race, though. Deities with favored races should be the minority, not the majority.

This is pretty much exactly what I had in mind.

[Black Window]

I've been reading your series, and I really like it.

You've said previously that your pantheon has 20 gods in it, plus the Old Ones I assume since that's a collective description of multiple entities... of ones you've mentioned (ones with write-ups in bold) I count: Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh, Pelor, Sehanine, Lolth, Obad-Hai, Nerull, Jehannah, Hextor, Heironeus, Erythnul, Olidammara, Wee Jas, Vecna, Joramun, Kord, Boccob, Bahamut and Tiamat, plus three dead gods: Garl Glittergold, Io and the Forgotten One.

-that would make 20, plus the three which are dead, but is that the correct list?

[LordotTrinkets]

Also, might I ask what the ETA for the next deity post will be?

[LudicSavant]

I've been reading your series, and I really like it.

You've said previously that your pantheon has 20 gods in it, plus the Old Ones I assume since that's a collective description of multiple entities... of ones you've mentioned (ones with write-ups in bold) I count: Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh, Pelor, Sehanine, Lolth, Obad-Hai, Nerull, Jehannah, Hextor, Heironeus, Erythnul, Olidammara, Wee Jas, Vecna, Joramun, Kord, Boccob, Bahamut and Tiamat, plus three dead gods: Garl Glittergold, Io and the Forgotten One.

-that would make 20, plus the three which are dead, but is that the correct list?

The deities I have already posted are:
- Corellon Larethian
- Hextor
- Nerull
- Lolth
- Olidammara
- Wee Jas
- Erythnul
- The Deep Ones

The deities I plan to post articles for in the future are:
- Kord, the enlightened sage of pain
- Sehanine Moonbow, the messenger of the gods
- Moradin, the forger of souls
- Gruumsh, the rebel king
- Heironeous, the blind judge
- Jehenna, the mother of law
- Tiamat, the devourer of Io's flesh
- Bahamut, the devourer of Io's soul
- Joramy, the new goddess of fire
- Vecna, the secret god
- Obad-Hai, the savage guardian of balance
- Boccob, the path of wisdom
- Pelor, the dawn machine
- Maglubiyet, the vile god of hope

Also, might I ask what the ETA for the next deity post will be?

I don't want to make any promises. I've been swamped for the past few months. I am writing Bahamut in the other tab as I post this, though.

[Black Window]

If you take requests, after Bahamut I'd like to see Tiamat (to complete the pair), Kord (because the tidbits you have revealed about him are extremely intriguing) or (most of all, but least likely I figure) Maglubiyet.

[Max_Killjoy]

I don't want to make any promises. I've been swamped for the past few months. I am writing Bahamut in the other tab as I post this, though.

We eagerly await.

[LudicSavant]

Holy Day: The Festival of Silks

Think like this, but with wild dancing, arcane flares, and painted drow.

Not only are spiders a good equivalent to mousers and guard dogs... they also weave a valuable export. Giant spider silk is prized around the world, despite (or perhaps in part because of) the occasional association with sin or scandal by peoples of the surface.

In some of the subterranean lands where this industry thrives, there is a custom. Each year, drow gather to celebrate the harvesting of the silk. It is on this day that the underdark is awash in color. Colorful silk banners are draped from every surface, and elaborate patterns are carried through the streets. Painted dancers clothed in veils revel in the light of arcane flares, while acrobats swing from webbed ceilings. Children and slaves alike run happily through the streets dressed in fine silk clothes, trailing streamers. Even the spiders are painted, and allowed to crawl freely over the banners and patterns stretching from house to house.

During the celebration, priestesses unveil the grand weave, made by venerable spiders over the course of the whole year. Before the gathered people, auspicians interpret its beautiful patterns to predict the coming year. The announcements are concluded with such revelry and drink that even foreigners forget to care about the spiders crawling over everything; it all just blends into sensation and color.

By the end of the celebration, the fine silk distributed to the populace—clothing and streamers, veils and weaves—is gathered back up and, for the most part, prepared for export. After all, while silk and dyes are abundant, other things are not, and so they must trade. But they get to enjoy this abundance for a day.

[Max_Killjoy]

Holy Day: The Festival of Silks

Think like this, but with wild dancing, arcane flares, and painted drow.

Not only are spiders a good equivalent to mousers and guard dogs... they also weave a valuable export. Giant spider silk is prized around the world, despite (or perhaps in part because of) the occasional association with sin or scandal by peoples of the surface.

In some of the subterranean lands where this industry thrives, there is a custom. Each year, drow gather to celebrate the harvesting of the silk. It is on this day that the underdark is awash in color. Colorful silk banners are draped from every surface, and elaborate patterns are carried through the streets. Painted dancers clothed in veils revel in the light of arcane flares, while acrobats swing from webbed ceilings. Children and slaves alike run happily through the streets dressed in fine silk clothes, trailing streamers. Even the spiders are painted, and allowed to crawl freely over the banners and patterns stretching from house to house.

During the celebration, priestesses unveil the grand weave, made by venerable spiders over the course of the whole year. Before the gathered people, auspicians interpret its beautiful patterns to predict the coming year. The announcements are concluded with such revelry and drink that even foreigners forget to care about the spiders crawling over everything; it all just blends into sensation and color.

By the end of the celebration, the fine silk distributed to the populace—clothing and streamers, veils and weaves—is gathered back up and, for the most part, prepared for export. After all, while silk and dyes are abundant, other things are not, and so they must trade. But they get to enjoy this abundance for a day.

I like this idea. It fits the Drow, their Lloth-centered religion, and their relationship with spiders, as presented here, and it also takes some real-world festivals and puts a new spin on them.

Maybe it's been mentioned before and I've missed it -- do the Drow have more of a relationship with "surface" cultures in this setting than they do in boilerplate D&D? Curious about it here because of the mentions of foreign visitors and large-scale trade.

[LudicSavant]

I like this idea. It fits the Drow, their Lloth-centered religion, and their relationship with spiders, as presented here, and it also takes some real-world festivals and puts a new spin on them.

Maybe it's been mentioned before and I've missed it -- do the Drow have more of a relationship with "surface" cultures in this setting than they do in boilerplate D&D? Curious about it here because of the mentions of foreign visitors and large-scale trade.

Take the real world case of the Silk Road. A silk merchant from China might never see Europe, or indeed even meet anyone who has been to Europe... and yet see that their goods reach Europeans anyways. So, whether you want underdark and surface cultures to have much direct interaction or not, there can still be trade between them via any number of intermediaries.

In other words, it works in both kinds of settings. You can even have both cases in the same world (e.g. drow cultures which have more direct interactions with the surface, and those which do not).

[Landis963]

Holy Day: The Festival of Silks
During the celebration, priestesses unveil the grand weave, made by venerable spiders over the course of the whole year. Before the gathered people, auspicians interpret its beautiful patterns to predict the coming year. The announcements are concluded with such revelry and drink that even foreigners forget to care about the spiders crawling over everything; it all just blends into sensation and color.

So the auspicians in question do not see the patterns in advance? What would they be looking for to find the right predictions? What sort of spiders are these "venerable" ones? Are they simply long-lived silk spiders much like the rest of those used by the drow population? How densely packed are the threads and is that a point of consideration? Is it a single flat tapestry or banner or is it three-dimensional, and what, if anything, do the priestesses unveiling the grand weave do to it in advance?

[LudicSavant]

So the auspicians in question do not see the patterns in advance?

Yes.

What sort of spiders are these "venerable" ones?

Particularly old silk spiders acquired by the priesthood for this purpose. So, basically when the prize cow gets on in years, the priests acquire it (or it is donated), bless it, and put it in a cave that they open up once a year.

Are they simply long-lived silk spiders much like the rest of those used by the drow population?

Yes.

Is it a single flat tapestry or banner or is it three-dimensional, and what, if anything, do the priestesses unveiling the grand weave do to it in advance?

It's a web created by multiple spiders, and thus can be 3-dimensional. By tradition, the auspicians do not view it in advance. They do, however, cast blessings on the spiders before sealing them away and feed them a special diet (the primary purpose of which is probably to make the web look prettier more than anything else).

What would they be looking for to find the right predictions?

It's similar to forms of divination like reading tea leaves or casting runes. Various details and patterns correspond to various omens.

[Landis963]

Yes, the auspicians don't see the patterns in advance.


The "venerable" spiders are particularly old silk spiders acquired by the priesthood for this purpose. So, basically when the prize cow gets on in years, the priests acquire it (or it is donated), bless it, and put it in a cave that they open up once a year.


Yes, aside from their advanced age they are otherwise normal drow-bred silk spiders.


The weave is a web created by multiple spiders, and thus can be 3-dimensional. By tradition, the auspicians do not view it in advance. They do, however, cast blessings on the spiders before sealing them away and feed them a special diet (the primary purpose of which is probably to make the web look prettier more than anything else).


Interpreting the weave is similar to forms of divination like reading tea leaves or casting runes. Various details and patterns correspond to various omens.

Context added.

I see. No doubt when a weave emerges as 3-dimensional it would be more difficult for a laydrow to recognize patterns, thereby allowing for extra leeway for "favorable" divinations. Assuming of course that laydrow could recognize any such patterns in the first place. (Forgive my cynicism, but one wouldn't want an uncontrolled interpretation of the weave to disagree with the official one; especially if people could recognize the unofficial one as more accurate) In this vein, the cave that the venerable spiders are kept in probably has multiple convenient anchor points on several intersecting planes, to increase the chance that a weave emerges as a 3-dimensional shape. How is the weave removed from the cave? Because I am assuming that at some point the weave is either taken to be displayed to the public or is dismantled after the ceremony.

[Mith]

I could see such a cave having a large mouth, so the unsealing of the cave would reveal the weave. Better yet, the web fills the mouth of he cave, and runs back into the cave. If one wishes, they can seek a fortune by wandering through the web into the mouth of the cave, but if the catch on the threads they are stuck fast and are then set on by the now starving silk spiders. Those that seek their fortunes are generally foolhardy or so desperate that they do not care if they die.

Care to find your fate?

[Sharad9]

So what role do men play in this interpretation of the drow? Are they still as oppressed and beaten down?

[Sariel Vailo]

Im going to do something similar with your idea i like some of it. And would with your permission take it. And alter aspects to my own devices.

[raygun goth]

So what role do men play in this interpretation of the drow? Are they still as oppressed and beaten down?

Since these drow are more about being awesome and forging your destiny and less about oppressing men for the simple reason that they're men, I would assume the simple answer would be "no."

[LudicSavant]

So what role do men play in this interpretation of the drow? Are they still as oppressed and beaten down?

Short answer: No. Many drow societies are matriarchal rather than patriarchal, which can be a stunning contrast for those thoroughly accustomed to patriarchy. However, men are generally not treated any worse than women are in the more patriarchal societies common on the surface. And while that doesn't mean gender equality, there's nothing like the rather cartoonish level of gender-based subjugation we see in some D&D lore where all the men are in bondage gear and all the women are dominatrixes (to be entirely honest, that portrayal strikes me more as the feverish fantasies of a BDSM fetishist writing fiction about their perceived sexy evil ex carrying out their supposed need for revenge on all men rather than an even remotely believable portrayal of an oppressive matriarchy run by actual humanoid beings).

A given drow matriarchy might include:
- Matrilineal inheritance of titles and property. You hear about a man's bachelor name, rather than a woman's maiden name.
- Men are common in the workforce, often working alongside women. However, women are expected to be heads of households, and are more common in positions of responsibility. Women are expected to be the primary handlers of business and finances, much like men are in our culture.
- Women are less likely to resort to forms of aesthetics that take a great deal of time to apply. By contrast, men are expected to be more vain, and you might see things like men dressing up in elaborate beads, body paint, and Jojo poses to attract a lady's attention... kinda like the fabulous men of the Wodaabe in that respect. Speaking of which, something like the wife-stealing festival could fit right in (despite what the name might make some assume, the women hold most of the power in what is essentially a male beauty contest judged by women, used to hook up with eligible bachelors).