Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Bladelock houseruling?

    Would there be many issues with allowing players to play Hexblade/Bladelock but choose their patron?
    Example:

    Player wants to go Pact of Blade, they get the level 1 Hex Warrior feature of Hexblade but have the spells replaced by their chosen patron such as Fiend. The later level features are then replaced by the chosen Patron. Hexblades Curse and the spell list/ abilities will be left to choosing Hexblade as the patron itself

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    If itís only Hex Warrior and you only get that feature at level 3 instead of level 1, then honestly I think itís an improvement. It reduces how ridiculously good a 1 level dip in Hexblade is, while giving Blade Pact a much needed buff.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Spectrulus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    WA, USA

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    I can tell you it does not.

    At my table, and friends, Pact of The Blade grants Cha to attack and damage, medium armor, and Extra attack. If you want to push it slightly forward you're probably fine as long as they aren't interested in multi-classing cheese.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    The only issue is it'd be just as broken as the Hexblade. Because Hex Warrior is what makes them broken.

    If your game can handle Hexblades being broken, then it's not an issue.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The only issue is it'd be just as broken as the Hexblade. Because Hex Warrior is what makes them broken.

    If your game can handle Hexblades being broken, then it's not an issue.
    Hexblades are only broken because you only need a 1 level dip to get Hex Warrior. A pure class Hexblade is powerful but far from broken.

    Putting Hex Warrior at level 3 instead of 1 greatly increases the investment required to pick it up, which makes it far more balanced for multiclassing.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    I did something like this for my group.

    Hexblade as a Patron option is gone. And I folded Hex Warrior into standard PotBlade, and gave Extra Attack at 6th level freely.

    I made Hexblades Curse an Invocation requiring PotB, replacing Thirsting Blade.

    Lifedrinker remains, other than removing Thirsting Blade as a requirement, and now give temp HP equal to Warlock lvl + Cha mod.

    I added the rest of the Hexblade class features as Invocations, and added a Feat to gain 2 Invocations (must meet requirements) as well as the option to trade out Mystic Arcanum for an extra Invocation. (All or nothing. No cherry picking good MA levels and trading out the rest.)

    All in all, it makes the BladeLock stronger, but still nowhere near an EB spammer, or a GWM barbarian.

    EDIT: For comparison, we allow multiclassing, so this may sound extremely strong, but it needs to be justified/earned in-game. So randomly dipping back and forth for optimized builds.

    Wanna be a fighter? You're signing up as a Mercenary or becoming a Gladiator for a few months.

    Wanna be a Wizard? Good luck scrounging up tuition for the year at the Academy.

    Wanna be a Warlock? "Oh, really? Here is the paperwork, fill it out, and submit it to my assistant along with 2 forms of ID and a vial of your blood within 3 business days..."
    Last edited by Mongobear; 2019-07-05 at 01:26 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    If anyone in my games approaches me and asks for pact of the blade to give the Hex Warrior abilities (cha for attack /damage, medium armor and shield), I wouldn't hesitate to say yes.
    Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746

    Trade list can be found on my Giant League wiki page, all pokemon are kept in stock with 5 IVs, most with egg moves, some bred for Hidden Powers. Currently at 55 in stock and counting.

    Padherders for my phone and my tablet!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Hexblades are only broken because you only need a 1 level dip to get Hex Warrior. A pure class Hexblade is powerful but far from broken.
    No, they're still broken even in a no feat no multiclassing game.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2018

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    No, they're still broken even in a no feat no multiclassing game.
    I'd like to see your math/logic that proves this. Preferable in a PM or separate thread as to prevent highjacking this one.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Between SEA and PDX.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    I'd like to see your math/logic that proves this. Preferable in a PM or separate thread as to prevent highjacking this one.
    Seconded. Not meaning to tag team on Tanarii or anything, but I've always been a bit skeptical of Hexblades regarding durability and versatility, and I'd like to be wrong about them.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    No, they're still broken even in a no feat no multiclassing game.
    Ok, you can say that, but for what reasons are they broken?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    If anyone in my games approaches me and asks for pact of the blade to give the Hex Warrior abilities (cha for attack /damage, medium armor and shield), I wouldn't hesitate to say yes.
    Agreed. This is how blade pact warlocks should have been to start with. What makes them feel weird is CHA to weapon attacks

    CHA to weapon attacks is the reason why people consider Hexblades to be "broken." No other gish type, meaning someone with martial capabilities and spells, uses the same attribute for both attacking and casting spells. The closest anyone else comes is the odd Shillelagh / Magic Stone build you sometimes see Rangers or Clerics try to run, but those builds have severe limitations.

    It's because of that factor that Hexblades can be considered "SAD", meaning they only need to max out one attribute - charisma. They can keep their Con and Dex at 14 and dump everything else if they choose without losing much. If you compare them to a Bladesinger or any type of gish Bard, it's clear that there are some pretty big differences in terms of damage.

    Is that balanced, though? That's the part that I don't know. Compared to other "full" casters, warlocks are extremely limited. Fewer total spell slots, limited spell selection, limited spells known, no access to Metamagic or similar features, etc. They can't hoard level 1 slots for Shield, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall and the like the way other casters can. They only get to "know" one spell of 6th level, 7th level, etc., and then they're done. They don't have a wizard's immense spell pool or a Sorcerer's metamagics.

    Single-classed, there are some pretty big restrictions on what a Hexblade can do. They aren't "better" than having a wizard, barbarian, rogue, etc. They're different. I will say that, in my opinion, there is no comparison between a level 20 fighter vs a level 20 Hexblade - the Hexblade is just better by that point. But so is a level 20 Open Hand Monk, or a level 20 Paladin. At the levels where most people spend most of their time (1-14), Hexblade isn't too far above or below the curve. It's solid, actually.

    Hexblade dips can be a little troublesome for balance, but they're hardly required. Compare what a level 8 Paladin / Hexblade or Sorcerer / Hexblade can do to what a level 8 Fighter / Rogue can do, or what a level 8 wizard or bard or sorcerer or cleric or druid can do, and it's clear that they aren't really stepping on anyone's toes.

    So, I think it's fine. I just wish the other gish types had the option of using their primary attribute for weapon attacks like the Hexblade does.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The only issue is it'd be just as broken as the Hexblade. Because Hex Warrior is what makes them broken.

    If your game can handle Hexblades being broken, then it's not an issue.
    I would also kindly request a substantiated argument. I'm prone to agree.

    Personally, I'd rule something close to Mongobear.

    In my experience, the Hexblade becomes very very strong because so much martial prowess is obtained through feats. And Armour of Agathys scales extremely well. At level 9 if you use nothing but it, you're effectively increasing your hp with 150 hp (6 times with two short rests). That's a pretty significant chunk and it's not even including how crazy effective it is for damage. In play my biggest challenge with the Hexblade has been that AoA is so good that I rarely had use/room for my other cool toys. The go to of AoA +1 became repetitive.

    Look at the barbarian in comparison. You even rage (curse) for better damage than he does. Your advantage generation is more expensive, but it increases your survivability rather than decrease it.
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Huarahi

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by ToastyTobasco View Post
    Would there be many issues with allowing players to play Hexblade/Bladelock but choose their patron?
    Example:

    Player wants to go Pact of Blade, they get the level 1 Hex Warrior feature of Hexblade but have the spells replaced by their chosen patron such as Fiend. The later level features are then replaced by the chosen Patron. Hexblades Curse and the spell list/ abilities will be left to choosing Hexblade as the patron itself
    Frankly I wouldn't allow it. Hexblade is different from many of the other patrons because it is heavily melee focused, rather than on the spells. Granting the best parts of 2 subclasses to a single character without multiclassing can unbalance the character as a whole. For example, imagine if I had the Bladesong feature of the Bladesong Wizard, and the Undead Thralls feature of the Necromancy wizard. Both of them represent the strongest points of their subclass, and together you're getting a massive boost in power rather than the subclass focusing on one major power boost.

    Essentially, all subclasses have different ways of augmenting power, but are balanced in the sense that they generally provide the same level of overall boost. Taking the best of both will give the character double the power boost a subclass normally would provide.
    "There are truly only 2 sources of conflict: Miscommunication, and Intolerance. Of the two, only one is acceptable."

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Depends on how you look at Warlock patrons.

    If you looks at them cosmologically, each offers power from a different source.

    Archfey from the Feywild
    Fiend from the Elemental Chaos
    OGG from the Astral Sea
    Hexblade from the Shadowfell
    Celestial from the Outer Planes

    I suppose you could swap Undying for Hexblade with this change, empowering Pact of the Blade... It makes more sense, and I surmise had all options been on the table at the creation of 5E, it would have been the way the PHB would have been crafted.

    Moving Hex Warrior to a 3rd level suboption for warlock is a definite de-powering, but one I think most optimizers would still go for, especially since it opens up arguably better abilities and spells (particularly fiend) for a bladelock.
    Trollbait extraordinaire

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mjolnirbear's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    I just moved Hex Warrior to Blade Pact.

    My player's Celestial bladelock is not stronger than the wolf totem barbarian or the swashbuckler rogue. He saves his spell slots for smite on crits or emergency healing. He has two short rests every day due to my short rest houserule (5 min, 2 max).

    Being SAD is a bonus, absolutely. In my mind, it's a bonus not because it's so strong but because being MAD is such a massive penalty when it comes to feats and ASIs. But a Rogue (DEX SAD) doesn't lose much having an INT 14 when he's an Arcane Trickster. The monk has a built-in mechanic to reduce its MADness and the paladin can choose to focus on spells or on strength and be effective either way.
    Avatar by the awesome Linklele!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2015

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Real problem with Hexblade, is that there's not enough Hexing and the Blade part is just Thirsting blade/lifedrinker and Smites( be it with eldritch smite or MC PAlly)...

    For a subclass that is focused on melee the Hexblade HAS to take 3 invocations solely to be on the "same" relative level of other classes...
    With a class that as **** for spellslots (cause trading your Soul/firstborn to a Extradimensional entity gives you less power then a rogue/warrior who decided to randomly pick up a spellbook and read the first 5 pages...-Warlock 4 spellslots at lvl17, EK/AT, 12 spellslots...) and that the invocations are the selling point of the class, been forced into taking 3 of them to do exactly what a EK can do, man thats a kick in the nuts...

    So when i see people merging thirsting blade/lifedrinker into the PotB, i like it.

    Also whats truely shamefull is that NONE of the subclass features actually does anything about Hex and Blades...

    Hexblade curse's?, Once per short rest and then thats it...huh 'scuse me...the name is HEXblade, i thouhg i could have more Hexing involved then once every 3 hours...

    A class feat that you have different kind of hexes/curses?, like the Blood maledicts from the Blood Hunter?

    Also the Raise Spectre feature at lvl6, i mean yeah its kinda cool to have a spectre at your command..., but the thing as a limited use and also scale's very badly with lvls...

    Would instead see a "can use Hexblade's Curse CHA mod +1 per short rest".

    And Mystic Arcaneums...god are those some sort of bandaid slapped onto it just so that it "looks" good from afar...

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosrex View Post
    Real problem with Hexblade, is that there's not enough Hexing and the Blade part is just Thirsting blade/lifedrinker and Smites( be it with eldritch smite or MC PAlly)...
    I've never actually been able to put it to words, but this is pretty close to why I dislike Hexblade outside of a 3 level dip for MC synergy. Almost nothing it gains after 1st level actually has anything to do with what the subclass is supposed to be.

    Armor of Hexes is close, but I hate it. The Spectre is dumb, and has nothing to do with the rest of the kit, and Master of Hexes should've been a baseline mechanic of Hexblades Curse, not a capstone.

    Looking back, my fix i posted about earlier was a quick bandaid we made up I a single night, I should go back and actually put forth some effort into making it more synergized with the rest of the class.
    I Am A: Neutral Good Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian (2nd/1st Level)

    Ability Scores:
    Strength-16
    Dexterity-16
    Constitution-17
    Intelligence-17
    Wisdom-16
    Charisma-13

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    My current game gives medium armor to Pact of the Blade and Charisma attacks are rolled into the Thirsting Blade invocationb I think.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    (IMO of course):
    Honestly, I've considered the Hexblade patron to be an author saving throw for pact of blade since it was in UA. The more you do to make sure that people are choosing the hexblade patron because they want a mythic sword as a patron for RP reasons, or are interested in the hexing/cursing aspect the better. If they are simply trying to make a viable weapon-wielding warlock, make bladelock itself viable by moving medium armor and cha-weapons over there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    probably fine as long as they aren't interested in multi-classing cheese.
    One could probably just use that as a blanket statement surrounding all the Cha-based classes.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    (IMO of course):
    Honestly, I've considered the Hexblade patron to be an author saving throw for pact of blade since it was in UA. The more you do to make sure that people are choosing the hexblade patron because they want a mythic sword as a patron for RP reasons, or are interested in the hexing/cursing aspect the better. If they are simply trying to make a viable weapon-wielding warlock, make bladelock itself viable by moving medium armor and cha-weapons over there.
    I wholeheartedly agree, especially with your first sentence. Here is my attempt to remake the Hexblade into a non-Patron while still costing what I hope are appropriate amounts of resources and still granting the Warlock what he needs to build a good Bladepact holder from level one. It specifically leaves the Warlock free to choose any other Patron, because the "Hexblade Patron" is no more.

    It has one hack (add shillelagh to the Warlock list of Cantrips; I considered creating a custom one that could be cast on a sword, but this just seemed less likely to lead to shenanigans), and a number of spells and Invocations.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mjolnirbear's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2015

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongobear View Post
    I've never actually been able to put it to words, but this is pretty close to why I dislike Hexblade outside of a 3 level dip for MC synergy. Almost nothing it gains after 1st level actually has anything to do with what the subclass is supposed to be.

    Armor of Hexes is close, but I hate it. The Spectre is dumb, and has nothing to do with the rest of the kit, and Master of Hexes should've been a baseline mechanic of Hexblades Curse, not a capstone.

    Looking back, my fix i posted about earlier was a quick bandaid we made up I a single night, I should go back and actually put forth some effort into making it more synergized with the rest of the class.
    If you consider the hexblade to instead have the Shadow fell or raven Queen as patron, the class abilities work. The spell list, however, is rubbish. When I played one, my DM allowed me to redo the spell list with more debuff spells which better fluff as curses. It gave the RP flavour I wanted. Because "magic sword" is RUBBISH as a patron.
    Avatar by the awesome Linklele!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Bladelock houseruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    If you consider the hexblade to instead have the Shadow fell or raven Queen as patron, the class abilities work. The spell list, however, is rubbish. When I played one, my DM allowed me to redo the spell list with more debuff spells which better fluff as curses. It gave the RP flavour I wanted. Because "magic sword" is RUBBISH as a patron.
    The worst part is that it COULD be cool...but only if you actually GOT the magic sword in question. "I derive my powers from this sentient artifact" is a cool concept. But it doesn't work for two reasons, structurally and mechanically: 1) any weapon so powerful it could serve as a Patron probably is too powerful to give a PC at level one; and 2) it clashes with, rather than complementing, the Pact of the Blade.

    Reason (2) would be bad enough in a vacuum: no Patron should make a given Pact pointless to take alongside it. But add in that Hexblade was meant to complement Pact of the Blade, and it becomes impossibly bad. Note: they didn't go this route, probably at least in part due to those reasons. But that just brings us back to the only way "Hexblade Patron" works is in this way that clashes terribly with the class design and balance goals of 5e's Warlock.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •