Creative Cantrips - Shape Water

[HoodedHero007]

it's not a lot of people... Just one.

mua-ha-ha-ha-haaaa

[krugaan]

mua-ha-ha-ha-haaaa

I think you've just suicided your own thread.

[HoodedHero007]

I think you've just suicided your own thread.

how so?

[Shaofoo]

I think that we should all remember that fantasy water should not be bound to real life laws and physics. Of coruse as a DM you are more than free to add these properties but saying "But this is how it would act in real life" kinda falls flat in a world where throwing fire with a thought is commonplace. If you freeze an urn full of water and it doesn't break then that is how the water works in that DM's world.

Also you can't target the blood inside a person because it isn't a legal target by RAW, you require line of effect to be able to target the water and considering that there is an entire body between you and the water you can't target it anyway.

Quite frankly I would also only have the spell affect substances that has water in their names; blood, wine, saliva, medicine and other such liquid substances cannot be targeted by the spell even if it is actually mostly water (and most liquid things are mostly water). You can extend that to the reason why you can't affect ice and vapor even though it is technically water because it isn't immediately recognized as water in the name.

Of course I am sure most DMs will allow creative use but only up to a certain point including allowing forbidden substances to be affected but it is because there has to be good will built up, break that good will and you will have the DM reject anything that you throw even if you show him clips from a show. Remember that the DM has final say in the more creative applications.

[Temperjoke]

Also you can't target the blood inside a person because it isn't a legal target by RAW, you require line of effect to be able to target the water and considering that there is an entire body between you and the water you can't target it anyway.

Quite frankly I would also only have the spell affect substances that has water in their names; blood, wine, saliva, medicine and other such liquid substances cannot be targeted by the spell even if it is actually mostly water (and most liquid things are mostly water). You can extend that to the reason why you can't affect ice and vapor even though it is technically water because it isn't immediately recognized as water in the name.

Yeah, I don't believe that the intent of the cantrip is to allow players to be full-fledged water benders by itself.

Back on clever uses, what about pouring water on holes (in armor, people, boats, etc.) then using the cantrip to freeze the water to make a temporary patch? I wouldn't use it long term on a person's injuries, but it might do for a temporary solution while a better one is implemented. For that matter, ice cast on broken legs/arms. If you're in an arctic-type environment, you could use it to make ice blocks for construction, the climate would maintain the freezing.

[JoeJ]

Filling a lock with water and freezing it might or might not break it open. If it doesn't, it would at least make it temporarily impossible for anybody to unlock, which could be useful.

[Temperjoke]

Filling a lock with water and freezing it might or might not break it open. If it doesn't, it would at least make it temporarily impossible for anybody to unlock, which could be useful.

Alternatively, if you have a spellcaster that can use heat metal, heat hit it repeatedly with water, you could potentially cause the metal to warp or even fracture.

[Stealthscout]

Some interesting new options - added them all.

Shaofoo had a good comment on the higher level topic that is worth reading. A lot of 'power' comes from the built-up goodwill with the DM. I was talking bribes or the like, but take it the other way where being nice and proving you aren't out to destroy the DM's plot for a while can be cashed in for more power later.

[FaceOnFire]

Got a level 3 druid with the cantrip "Shape Water."

She wants to move a 5x5x5 block of water above someone's head and then freeze it so it drops on them with 8,000 pounds.

She argues that the force she conjured of said water is not hurting them because gravity is doing it, freeing her from the "the force causes no damage" caveat.

Can anyone help me give her an in-game logical explanation that a lvl3 pc should not be able to kill anyone in the game with a cantrip?

[JackPhoenix]

Got a level 3 druid with the cantrip "Shape Water."

She wants to move a 5x5x5 block of water above someone's head and then freeze it so it drops on them with 8,000 pounds.

She argues that the force she conjured of said water is not hurting them because gravity is doing it, freeing her from the "the force causes no damage" caveat.

Can anyone help me give her an in-game logical explanation that a lvl3 pc should not be able to kill anyone in the game with a cantrip?

Even if she can move water straight up (which is doubtful, the water is supposed to flow, not levitate, it's up to the GM), it immediately pours down again, it doesn't stay up (the use is instant effect, the water behaves according to laws of physics immediately after it ends). It takes two different casting actions to move the water and freeze it, meaning that the water is no longer above the enemy when she freezes it. She can move the water only 5', not enough to get above most enemie's heads. Falling block of ice should cause the same damage as similar falling object (I think the precedent is 4d6 falling boulder trap), assuming 5' is even enough to achieve any velocity, with Dex save for half, not instant death. Take your pick.

Level 3 PC should be able to kill anyone with a cantrip just fine, that's what Eldritch Blast, Firebolt and many others are for.

Creating a block of ice, then somehow getting it up to drop it on the enemy (like pushing it on an enemy standing under the cliff/wall) in the next hour is valid tactics, but it's too much work for too little benefit

[RickAllison]

Now it might be an entirely valid choice to have it flow up to cover the shmuck in water! Wouldn't do damage (unless he is a fire elemental), but rendering an impetuous youth soaking wet seems like an entirely valid use for the spell.

[Joe the Rat]

Flow water to knee depth around the target. If they don't move, freeze it on your next turn.
Create a simple shape of a 5' tall upside-down wedge leaning towards the target. If they don't move, freeze it on your next turn, and let gravity do the rest.

It'll take your druid two turns to get these shenanigans up to speed. and they will not be insta-kills, more insta-inconveniences-with-a-possible-damage-rider.

Even if you did allow the floating block of water/ice, the target really ought to get a dex save... or, y'know, move after the water block appears above it.

[Godshoe]

Another good guide! Indeed a lot of opportunities. Thank you, Stealthscout.

[Fralex]

Managing Ice and VaporCan I affect water vapor? – Not explicit, but reasonable for those cases you have a lot flying around. You will want to follow up with ‘can I condense the water out of the air’. If you can’t, the only way to get liquid water out of the air would be to freeze it and melt it later. Either way, this is a way to find water when you don’t have any.

The spell specifies that it must be water you can see, so water vapor doesn't count unless it's visible to the naked eye, like mist.

[Stealthscout]

Another good guide! Indeed a lot of opportunities. Thank you, Stealthscout.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.


A couple comments- the spell explicitly says you can't enclose someone in ICE. So no freezing them halfway in a block like that.

Good catch in not Being able to pull water out of normal air. That said, it does leave open mist and fog. For instance, you could effectively dispell fog after a few rounds of puddle making.

[Jrocc]

I think I great use for Shape Water is instant tentacles! Animate into four tentacles strapped to your back then freeze. Thinking like Doc Ock style. Great for climbing things and swinging, and also for extra grapples while your weapon arms are free to do what they do best.

[JackPhoenix]

I think I great use for Shape Water is instant tentacles! Animate into four tentacles strapped to your back then freeze. Thinking like Doc Ock style. Great for climbing things and swinging, and also for extra grapples while your weapon arms are free to do what they do best.

You now have 4 inanimate pieces of ice in the shape of tentacles strapped to your back. It propably gets in the way of climbing, or at least presents extra weight in awkward distribution that messes up your balance, and it's inanimate, so no grapling. The spell says nothing about being able to animate ice, only water

How do you strap water to your back anyway? You can't freeze it if there's a creature (like you) inside.

[Jrocc]

You now have 4 inanimate pieces of ice in the shape of tentacles strapped to your back. It propably gets in the way of climbing, or at least presents extra weight in awkward distribution that messes up your balance, and it's inanimate, so no grapling. The spell says nothing about being able to animate ice, only water

How do you strap water to your back anyway? You can't freeze it if there's a creature (like you) inside.

Hrmm, good point about the freezing, but I suppose you could freeze it into a breastplate shape and then slip it on after it was frozen.

As for the moving ice side of it, the spell implies you can have 2 non-instantaneous effects at any time, meaning that the water can be both animated and frozen at the same time. I would argue that since you are moving ice in this way with the spell already, you should be able to move it with the first bullet too. That and also that ice is simply cold water anyway

[JackPhoenix]

Hrmm, good point about the freezing, but I suppose you could freeze it into a breastplate shape and then slip it on after it was frozen.

As for the moving ice side of it, the spell implies you can have 2 non-instantaneous effects at any time, meaning that the water can be both animated and frozen at the same time. I would argue that since you are moving ice in this way with the spell already, you should be able to move it with the first bullet too. That and also that ice is simply cold water anyway

Ice isn't just cold water, it's water (or something else) in solid form. Arguably, it no longer fulfills the requirements of the spell (i.E. using it on water, not oils or other liquids, and not (at least explicitly) ice or vapor). In any case, the cantrip's text takes care to avoid giving it direct use in combat (the mention that you can't freeze water with creature in it), so I think grappling would be against RAI.

Just a thought, it could be also argued if freezing water counts as non-instaneous effect, i.e if the ice is still affected by the magic for the duration, or if it's just instantly frozen and thaws on its own in a hour.

[Jrocc]

Ice isn't just cold water, it's water (or something else) in solid form. Arguably, it no longer fulfills the requirements of the spell (i.E. using it on water, not oils or other liquids, and not (at least explicitly) ice or vapor). In any case, the cantrip's text takes care to avoid giving it direct use in combat (the mention that you can't freeze water with creature in it), so I think grappling would be against RAI.

Just a thought, it could be also argued if freezing water counts as non-instaneous effect, i.e if the ice is still affected by the magic for the duration, or if it's just instantly frozen and thaws on its own in a hour.

The spell clearly has 3 non-instantaneous effects, i.e the last three bullets. If freezing doesn't count as a non-instantaneous effect, then there would be no need for the spell to specify that only 2 can be used at any given time. Moreover, if freeze cannot be used in conjunction with animate, then there would be no need to specify that only 2 non-instantaneous effects can be used at one time, as you wouldn't be able to use more than two anyway. Seems quite clear in the wording to me that the spell intends for you to be able to animte ice

[JackPhoenix]

The spell clearly has 3 non-instantaneous effects, i.e the last three bullets. If freezing doesn't count as a non-instantaneous effect, then there would be no need for the spell to specify that only 2 can be used at any given time. Moreover, if freeze cannot be used in conjunction with animate, then there would be no need to specify that only 2 non-instantaneous effects can be used at one time, as you wouldn't be able to use more than two anyway. Seems quite clear in the wording to me that the spell intends for you to be able to animte ice

2 non-instantaneous effects at the same time mean you may affect 2 bodies of water at the same time, it doesn't need to have anything to do with using 2 of the effect options at the same time: See Prestidigitation, it uses the same language and it does allow 3 effects at the same time while only having 3 non-instantaneous effect. The wording would be redundant if it meant you can use 3 different effects, but not the same effect 3 times.

And I don't claim that freezing being instant effect is RAI, just that it could be interpreted that way. I would have to think long and hard about possible abuses before deciding what ruling I would use in my game.

And for me, the wording seems clear that the the spell is intended to work only on liquid water, not ice.

[Jrocc]

2 non-instantaneous effects at the same time mean you may affect 2 bodies of water at the same time, it doesn't need to have anything to do with using 2 of the effect options at the same time: See Prestidigitation, it uses the same language and it does allow 3 effects at the same time while only having 3 non-instantaneous effect. The wording would be redundant if it meant you can use 3 different effects, but not the same effect 3 times.

And I don't claim that freezing being instant effect is RAI, just that it could be interpreted that way. I would have to think long and hard about possible abuses before deciding what ruling I would use in my game.

And for me, the wording seems clear that the the spell is intended to work only on liquid water, not ice.

:O ! You're right! I was reading that as the same body of water, didn't even think it meant 2 different ones #mindblown

Thanks for using different material to prove your point

However! WHAT IF... you still use it as tentacles, except just not as frozen ones? So have it similar to the Water Weird's constrict? I still don't think that the point of this spell is to not use it in combat, as you would be able to make an ice spike or dagger and stab a creature, also you would be able to create difficult terrain or use the help action. The restrictions are mainly stopping it from being OP or as easy damage, such as covering a character's face with water then freezing it, suffocating the creature and avoiding combat, or using it as some high pressure hose. Grapple is an action that isn't OP because you can't avoid combat with it and it utilises saving throws and the like and takes up valuable actions that could have been used to cause damage. At the same time, I would rule it that the grapple cannot cause damage like the Water Weird's, as that is definitely against the spell's description

[Jrocc]

:O ! You're right! I was reading that as the same body of water, didn't even think it meant 2 different ones #mindblown

Thanks for using different material to prove your point

However! WHAT IF... you still use it as tentacles, except just not as frozen ones? So have it similar to the Water Weird's constrict? I still don't think that the point of this spell is to not use it in combat, as you would be able to make an ice spike or dagger and stab a creature, also you would be able to create difficult terrain or use the help action. The restrictions are mainly stopping it from being OP or as easy damage, such as covering a character's face with water then freezing it, suffocating the creature and avoiding combat, or using it as some high pressure hose. Grapple is an action that isn't OP because you can't avoid combat with it and it utilises saving throws and the like and takes up valuable actions that could have been used to cause damage. At the same time, I would rule it that the grapple cannot cause damage like the Water Weird's, as that is definitely against the spell's description

OR... to add more credibility to it, have the water surround a rope so you can lift it and use it as a make-shift tentacle. You could even freeze the end of the rope into a hook or grapple shape!

[Asmotherion]

There is also the restriction that you can't freeze water with living creatures in it. The water in a creature does have a living creature in it. Just mentioning it as someone suggested freezing the water in the body or something. Which however brings me to:

-Instant Mummifying. Practucally remove all the water from a creature's dead body.
-Necromantic Mimicry: By controling the water in a dead creature's body, give it motion, to replicate the animation of a zombie, and terrify those around you. Very usefull for a Necromancer that wants to Bluff about re-animating his zombies at-will, even when his oponent just killed them.
-Ice Caldrops
-Ice dificult terrain with dex save or fall prone
-A medieval fridge, so your eadibles won't rot
-Preserving a dead body from smelling.
-Make-shift tools and weapons, made of Ice. Especially usefull if you intend to assasinate someone without leaving a murder weapon behind.
-Ice Cubes to have your medieval coffe or Ice tea at the right temperature even in the summer. Includes a variant of shaved ice for a good medieval ice-cream.
-Now you can effortlessly control a small boat, by changing the flow of the water under it.
-In a similar maneer, you can also sink small boats, by freezing the water around them.
-Make a Snowman on the elemental plane of fire. It's definitelly something you can brag about latter.
-Ice block to work the forge
-Freeze an Ice Block and put it somewere high. Wait till someone passes under it, and turn it back to water, to humiliate them in public. Combine it with a spell that deals lighting damage if you really hate the enemy. Any sane DM will at least grand advantage.
-Put an item you want to replicate in the water, such as a tablet, a statue's face or in general, something 3-dimentional, that can be extracted without breaking the ice. Freeze the ice. Remove the item. Fill the ice with clay. Work it part-by-part to make cheap replicas of valuable art, and then sell it (either as a knock-off, or as the real stuff). Enjoy profits.
-Change the colour of water. Sell them at any prise as any kind of potion. Preferably have them consume the potion right away by telling them it's effect may were off as time passes, and promise an amazing ability that they could believe they got, and that will show after time passes (for example, sell a "potion of divine favor" that pardons their sins to their respective gods, or a "potion of age reversal" that would make them age in reverce at a normal pace.)

[Godshoe]

Make a Snowman on the elemental plane of fire. It's definitelly something you can brag about latter.

But how can you make snowman somewhere where there is no water? Any liquid on the plane of fire evaporates instantly.

[JackPhoenix]

OR... to add more credibility to it, have the water surround a rope so you can lift it and use it as a make-shift tentacle. You could even freeze the end of the rope into a hook or grapple shape!

The rope is a great idea! That could possibly work. I still wouldn't allow it to grapple someone. The water isn't solid to hold anyone or anything, and the animation sounds (to me) like preprogrammed movement, not continuous control (no mention what action it would take to change its behavior, like Silent Image/Major Image). Tentacle waving back and forth, water in container swirling or bubbling, that sort of thing. I admit that the "at your direction" part can be read both way, I read it as you select the directions when you cast the spell and it will continue for the duration. It's not a creature (that would be mentioned in spell description), so it doesn't have statistics needed to use or maintain grapple.

There is also the restriction that you can't freeze water with living creatures in it. The water in a creature does have a living creature in it. Just mentioning it as someone suggested freezing the water in the body or something. Which however brings me to:

-Instant Mummifying. Practucally remove all the water from a creature's dead body.
-Necromantic Mimicry: By controling the water in a dead creature's body, give it motion, to replicate the animation of a zombie, and terrify those around you. Very usefull for a Necromancer that wants to Bluff about re-animating his zombies at-will, even when his oponent just killed them.

Doesn't work. You must see the body of water in question. Also, it's not really water, it's various water-based bodily fluids and internal cellular fluids. The saying that human body is 60% (or whatever, I've seen figures between 60-90 percent in various sources) water doesn't mean literal water.

-Now you can effortlessly control a small boat, by changing the flow of the water under it.

I wouldn't exactly call casting a cantrip every 6 seconds to move 5' effortless...

-In a similar maneer, you can also sink small boats, by freezing the water around them.

Ice floats in water

[Stealthscout]

And someone was claiming that I killed my own thread with too much information. Good thinking, guys!

A lot of these ideas depend on some rulings - animation limits, making 'hard' water objects, whether ice stays frozen, and animating ice instead of water. Most importantly, these are limited by a RAW line where moving water cannot harm others, but the rope idea may be a way around that.

All of these would have to be ruled on by the DM, and you probably gave him/her more possible abuses to consider. You bring up some new ideas, though:

Rope
Adding rope would make it useful as a tripping hazard, if not grappling. At least I would let a caster use their mental stat for the check. It would also mimic an animated rope this way - including knots at a distance.

Problem - the spell only affects a 5 foot cube. No stretching out 120' to pull levers with it.

-Now you can effortlessly control a small boat, by changing the flow of the water under it.
-In a similar manner, you can also sink small boats, by freezing the water around them.

The first one is rather inefficient. You can control the flow of water in a 5' spot. So unless your boat is sailing in your bathtub, it likely doesn't do much for you. The second one would work depending on what limitations your DM places on animating an object that moves on it's own. Note that if you use ice you don't really need a boat, though it may increase the number of people you can move around (2-3 instead of 1-2).

-Put an item you want to replicate in the water, such as a tablet, a statue's face or in general, something 3-dimentional, that can be extracted without breaking the ice. Freeze the ice. Remove the item. Fill the ice with clay. Work it part-by-part to make cheap replicas of valuable art, and then sell it (either as a knock-off, or as the real stuff). Enjoy profits.

Now this is an interesting idea - adding this to my list at the top.

Previously I was thinking about making ice copies which is faster. A DM may not let you use it for perfect forgeries (probably a skill check anyhow...), but it would make you able to do drop-forge casting very quickly for anything you want. Take it further, and there may be some 'mystical advantage' in cooling certain metals quickly encased in ice (that may not thaw) instead of common water.

Maybe another idea - disarm enemies. Even a salamander's spear will be ineffective as a magical ice club if you can encase it. That would be another DM call, though a saving throw would be perfectly fair to start with.

[Asmotherion]

The rope is a great idea! That could possibly work. I still wouldn't allow it to grapple someone. The water isn't solid to hold anyone or anything, and the animation sounds (to me) like preprogrammed movement, not continuous control (no mention what action it would take to change its behavior, like Silent Image/Major Image). Tentacle waving back and forth, water in container swirling or bubbling, that sort of thing. I admit that the "at your direction" part can be read both way, I read it as you select the directions when you cast the spell and it will continue for the duration. It's not a creature (that would be mentioned in spell description), so it doesn't have statistics needed to use or maintain grapple.



Doesn't work. You must see the body of water in question. Also, it's not really water, it's various water-based bodily fluids and internal cellular fluids. The saying that human body is 60% (or whatever, I've seen figures between 60-90 percent in various sources) water doesn't mean literal water.



I wouldn't exactly call casting a cantrip every 6 seconds to move 5' effortless...



Ice floats in water

About dead bodies: In my opionion, it's more or less up to DM aproval. I just listed it, as an alternative means to use the idea of "water in the body" without breaking the rules directly.

About moving the boat: The idea is that A) it requires no physical effort and B) Casting a cantrip is effortless, as a caster can cast it all day, every day and still not loose a single spell slot. That means (theoretically) that the magic it consumes is so little that casting 14400 cantrips (the maximum you can in 24 hours by time limit.) would still be less magic than you consume with a 1st level spell slot. I like to think of cantrips as using a fraction of magical energy in the most efficient way to produce an effect. Overall, the idea is that you don't need to consume a spell slot or any physical effort and still be able to move said small boat. And 5 feet is not so small compared to the speed you'd move the boat by hand.

About the ice: To clearyfy, I was thinking of Icebergs and how the most part is underwater. Which was silly, and mostly because at that point I was on my 32nd hour sleepless. That said, you can still use the water under the small boat, and move it inside the boat to sink it. Preferably put the water on one side, so balance and physics does the rest.


About the copies: I'm rather fond of the idea. :D Used it in a scenario to work on a copy of a magical sword we were tasked to bring back to the wizard questgiver. First made a clay copy of the shape of the sward from both sides, then, based on the shape, made a clay shell. Overheated metal in an oven, and then put liquid metal in the shell. Put the shell in water, froze the water, and after a wile I had a perfect copy. Then had a blacksmith work the copy a bit to make it stronger. Finally, I had the wizard (I was a Sorcerer/Warlock) use Nystul's Magic Aura on my copy for a month so that it would look as if it had the properties it should. When we went back to the Wizard, we told him we were prisoners in the Shadofell all this time (the crypt were we found it was guarded by undead and a Vampire, so it was believable), and after we escaped came directly. He was quite pleased with the result, giving us a lot of money for it. To this day, he still believes his Sword to be a flame tongue, and is happy to show it to his guests as a trophy on his wall.

[Aravir_II]

I have this cantrip, and I love it. More for flavor than battle. I've actually done quite a few things on this list.

Now I just acquired a ring of water walking...

Can I fly now? (moving the water I'm standing on to an arbitrary height continually)

Or at least walk up some water stairs really high?

Or walk really fast on water, like a moving escalator?

I think this could be a very fun and unexplored combo.

[Marrethiel]

Can you freeze a five foot cube or water that is in a larger body of water? Ie make a bridge across a river 5 feet at a time. Or make an instant ice boat.
If not, you could carry a large canvas bag, fill it up and freeze it before it leaks out. Empty the ice out and repeat a few times. Mold the ice so that they fit together with maybe a pole and then you have a canoe.