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    Default The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    I know I'm meant to be working on requests, but I had an idea...

    The Cloner
    "Quantity is a quality all of its own."
    - Josef Stalin.
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    Copies
    1st +0 +2 +0 +0 I am Legion
    1
    2nd +1 +3 +0 +0
    3
    3rd +2 +3 +1 +1
    6
    4th +3 +4 +1 +1
    8
    5th +3 +4 +1 +1
    12
    6th +4 +5 +2 +2
    15
    7th +5 +5 +2 +2
    19
    8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +2
    23
    9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +3
    27
    10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +3
    32
    11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +3
    37
    12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +4
    42
    13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +4
    47
    14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +4
    53
    15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +5
    59
    16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5
    64
    17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5
    71
    18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6
    77
    19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6
    83
    20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 We Are Many
    90
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d6
    Special: Cannot be a Dvati.

    Class Skills:
    Choose any 10 class skills for the cloner.
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency
    The cloner is proficient with all simple weapons, and with all light and medium armour and shields (but not tower shields).

    I am legion (Ex/Su)
    At 1st level, the cloner gains the ability to create exact copies of himself within a range equal to his own space (so the creature must be created adjacent to him). He controls all copies, who interact with each other via telepathic bond, except that it works everywhere (except if the magic cannot work in an area).

    Creating or bonding with a clone is supernatural; being one is extraordinary. The cloner's clones share his intentions and are controlled by his player even if they can't bond. The maximum number of clones which are copies of one original cloner is, no matter who created them, the number given on the table.

    Cloners track uses of limited abilities (usually racial abilities and the abilities of spell trigger or completion items, but possibly also abilities from feats) holistically but hit points and status separately, and cloners cannot use other class features while any number of clones exist.

    Each time a copy dies, the maximum number of copies goes down by 1 for 24 hours. The difference between an original and a clone is unimportant, though the maximum number of copies is actually 1 higher than the number on the table (due to the original).

    Copies using noncursed equipment confer its benefit and penalty upon the other copies, unless the object's physical presence is required. This means that if two different copies wear different magic items in the same space, the effects are usually negated on both. However, if a copy has a key, only that creature can use the key as it needs to be inserted into a lock. If the same key allowed the use of Fireball 1/day, then any one copy could use a fireball each day, and perhaps another copy another day.

    If a one copy is wielding a magical version of a weapon or has it in their possession, all other copies can treat a weapon of the same type as a magical weapon of the same kind (eg if a creature carries a +1 flaming greataxe, other creatures can treat their greataxes as +1 and flaming). If a copy has two weapons, they can't emulate the same weapon with both of them. For example, if one creature wields a +1 flaming short sword and a +2 short sword, then a creature wielding three short swords couldn't make one of them +3 and flaming or two or three of them +1 and flaming, but could make one of them +1 flaming and another one +2, leaving the last unenchanted. They couldn't enchant a longsword at all. Exactly the same is true of armour and shields.

    A copy can self-terminate as a special free action that can be taken even when the copy couldn't use any other actions (it's not your turn, you're turned to stone, etcetera). The only time it can't is when the copy is the last left. Also, a copy can terminate another copy in this way, so if a copy is dominated, the others can kill it offhand.

    We Are Many (Ex)
    From 20th level, copy deaths no longer reduce the maximum number of copies for any more than a single hour. To defeat a cloner, it is likely that enemies will have to search for all the copies and destroy them within the hour.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-03-18 at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    This may have just become my new favorite of the classes in 30 project. It kind of needs more options though. Also clarification on how equipment works. For the former I don't have any ideas beyond slapping a maneuver progression or some custom abilities on it, with the latter I'd recommend all copies get equipment but share the same pool of charged equipment, and of course equipment can't be loaned and dissolves when the clones die.

    The last thing is I'd recommend eventual upgrades for the telepathy, making it work across planes and then (Ex), unless it was (Ex) already.
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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Are they proficient with any weapons or armor? Are they meant to be?

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Made them proficient with stuff. The problem with slapping spells BUT WITH SWORDS maneuvers on them is 1) Maneuvers are a bit like spells only you can recover them, so clones on the other side of the universe sit there recovering (I worry about psionic focus too, though that's a bit harder to screw around with), 2) if you have 91 people to play with, you probably want your options for each one to be relatively simple and 3) 91 people with any more power than telepathic experts are likely to become rapidly OP.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    I just got a funny mental image. Imagine a cloner who took disguise as a skill, or bought polymorph scrolls/services in bulk and proceeded to be an entire town all by him/herselves.

    Might have to use that in a campaign actually.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    So this is basically like the Splitsoul class you made a while ago, but emphasising quantity rather than variety?

    I still hope to find a game where I can play as that class...

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by pi4t View Post
    So this is basically like the Splitsoul class you made a while ago, but emphasising quantity rather than variety?

    I still hope to find a game where I can play as that class...
    Quantity is a quality all of its own...

    I should add that as the class quote.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    What happens if one of the clones is Dominated?

    What happens if one if the clones is turned to stone or otherwise gotten rid of without being killed?

    What happens if one of the clones is temporarily disabled and a domination collar is forced upon them?

    What happens if one of the clones picks up or is forced topick up a cursed item?


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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Is it bad that the first thought upon seeing this is how to break it? A Legion Devil (FCII,p122) Cloner would be crazy, and thematically appropriate.


    Just to clarify... can these clones really aid one another? Because that makes the class a pretty good "brute-force" type of a skill-monkey.
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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Just to clarify... can these clones really aid one another? Because that makes the class a pretty good "brute-force" type of a skill-monkey.
    And suddenly another funny mental image of twenty identical guys standing around trying to help each other pick a lock or something, shouting "let me do it" and "No, no, that's the wrong way to hold them!"

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    It seems balanced fine on it's own, but can you imagine the multiclassing potential? A 1 or 2 level dip into this would make just about anyone more dangerous than straight-classing, and a level 17 wizard/level 3 Cloner could unload his entire spell list in one or two rounds.

    It's a tricky proposition to fix that, though, since "Clone-making guy who can't make clones until level 4" is not a particularly engaging character to play.
    Last edited by Drynwyn; 2016-03-18 at 07:57 AM.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Can you use maneuvers or spells with these clones?

    (english isn't my main language and I don't think that I saw anything about them not being able to use them. But I'd rather be certain before I throw a Cloner at my group)

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Cloners track uses of limited abilities (usually racial abilities and the abilities of spell trigger or completion items, but possibly also abilities from feats) holistically but hit points and status separately, and cloners cannot use other class features while any number of clones exist.
    I believe this is relevant.

    However, this could do with some clarification. Would a Fighter/Cloner not be able to make use of his fighter bonus feats? Or does it only mean class features that need to be activated?



    Also, this class is discriminating against Dvati, which is horrible. How could you be so mean to them?
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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Cloners track uses of limited abilities (usually racial abilities and the abilities of spell trigger or completion items, but possibly also abilities from feats) holistically but hit points and status separately, and cloners cannot use other class features while any number of clones exist.
    I feel like spell casting and manuvers and psionics and stuff like that is all disabled while having a clone, as a balance point. So wizard 17 cloner 3 isn't that fantastic other than "aha there's 5 of me you can't kill us all at once now can you!" And then the dragon breathes at your general direction.
    But if you had contingencies would those activate on your clones if the clones are cloned after you have your contingencies prepared?

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    I feel I have to point this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drynwyn View Post
    It seems balanced fine on it's own, but can you imagine the multiclassing potential? A 1 or 2 level dip into this would make just about anyone more dangerous than straight-classing, and a level 17 wizard/level 3 Cloner could unload his entire spell list in one or two rounds.

    It's a tricky proposition to fix that, though, since "Clone-making guy who can't make clones until level 4" is not a particularly engaging character to play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Cloners track uses of limited abilities (usually racial abilities and the abilities of spell trigger or completion items, but possibly also abilities from feats) holistically but hit points and status separately, and cloners cannot use other class features while any number of clones exist.
    Whether that applies to bonus feats, proficiencies, animal companions, familliars, or even passive class features I'm not sure though.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2016-03-18 at 09:50 AM.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    What happens if one of the clones is Dominated?

    What happens if one if the clones is turned to stone or otherwise gotten rid of without being killed?
    Good questions; I'll write something in.

    What happens if one of the clones is temporarily disabled and a domination collar is forced upon them?
    I'm gonna assume that's an item that dominates people. In which case, the answer is...

    What happens if one of the clones picks up or is forced topick up a cursed item?
    ...I'll write in that only one gets the curse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niro View Post
    Can you use maneuvers or spells with these clones?
    Yes, if they're not class features. For example, a cloner with Hidden Talent, Martial Study, or Utterance of the Evolving Mind could use the abilties they grant, but not one with psion, warblade or truenamer levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orderic View Post
    However, this could do with some clarification. Would a Fighter/Cloner not be able to make use of his fighter bonus feats? Or does it only mean class features that need to be activated?
    You do indeed lose your FBFs. The point is basically to block you from multiclassing entirely without doing so explicitly.

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Whether that applies to bonus feats, proficiencies, animal companions, familliars, or even passive class features I'm not sure though.
    You cannot use any of them at all. If you're a monk/cloner? You don't get unarmed strike bonuses, you don't have your bonus feats, you don't add wisdom to AC, as long as there is any number of copies above one out.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    What would happen if you combined this with the humanoid class that gives 4HD/level to match the CR equivalence via gestalt? Would you lose the "extra hit dice."

    I shall see if I can dig that out of the Internet for reference.
    I dug it up. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?332557-Silly-Idea-The-Humanoid
    Last edited by nikkoli; 2016-03-18 at 02:14 PM.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli View Post
    What would happen if you combined this with the humanoid class that gives 4HD/level to match the CR equivalence via gestalt? Would you lose the "extra hit dice."
    Yes, just like you lose the ability to Inspire Greatness, even mid-song, if you have any clones out.

    Also, OH MY GOD CLONER ALLIED WITH A BARD OR MARSHAL WHY DEAR PELOR WHY?

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Naah, that wouldn't be an issue. A succubus cloner on the other hand;

    1) Each clone can teleport at will. Good luck finding them all.

    2) Each clone can go ethereal at will. See above.

    3) Each clone can charm and suggest people at will.


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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Naah, that wouldn't be an issue. A succubus cloner on the other hand;

    1) Each clone can teleport at will. Good luck finding them all.

    2) Each clone can go ethereal at will. See above.

    3) Each clone can charm and suggest people at will.
    Certainly fits with the demonic theme I guess. Eating 6 levels for that is pretty tough (and I'm gonna say it isn't worth until fairly high ECL) but it is pretty nasty: 54 succubi versus 91 humans is no contest.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Would this lose fighter bonus feats should a cloner have fighter levels?

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli View Post
    Would this lose fighter bonus feats should a cloner have fighter levels?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    You do indeed lose your FBFs. The point is basically to block you from multiclassing entirely without doing so explicitly.
    Yes, it would.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Since I currently run a gestalt game, I thought about wether there is any class that can be taken alongside this and still be useful.

    I think a Cloner//Artificer could be quite useful, since all of the artificing can be done when the clones are not needed. Althoug this makes me think of another question... What happens to spells active on the original when it clones itself? My assumption would be that they are not transferred to the clones.
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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orderic View Post
    Since I currently run a gestalt game, I thought about wether there is any class that can be taken alongside this and still be useful.

    I think a Cloner//Artificer could be quite useful, since all of the artificing can be done when the clones are not needed. Althoug this makes me think of another question... What happens to spells active on the original when it clones itself? My assumption would be that they are not transferred to the clones.
    Cloner is usually a bad class for gestalt: your two options are pretty much berserker//cloner (because you lose all your zerker abilities for cloning anyway, don't feel bad about wielding magical stuff and enjoy your full bab and saves, and your D20 hit die no I'm not kidding) or [something that can do everything at the start of the day]//cloner. Using Scroll mercenary of wisdom//cloner could be interesting because SMoWs run out of spells quickly anyway (they usually have half their level in spells, ish) so they can throw persisted buffs of every level except ninth by bumping them up just one slot, and then split into clones. The clones are indeed perfect copies, including any spells you cast. Yes, GSMM:Persisted divine power is hilarious; prayer isn't a bad candidate either (all of your clones have a separate instance of prayer on them? Get this man a vest of stacking, pronto!).

    (Ugh, can you imagine a +90 to all those rolls? That would be flat-out one of the most broken things in D&D!)
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-03-19 at 06:04 AM.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    I just realized something that would work. From the 3.5 warcraft books there is the "tinker." And the attached tech system. So, how it's written anyone can use the tech system, tinkers just do it about 37 times better. Anyway you can make thing like me cha and guns. But the tech system gives you ridiculous bonuses for having lots of people work on it. A standard person has tech score of 1, Tinker is 1+class level, so you lose the bonus to class level on it but you get +1 to the tech score you can build for every person you've got building a thing. So all 90 of you is better with "basic" tech stuff than a level 50 tinker could be on their own.

    But then you can craft master work guns and mech suits for your army and rule the world.

    Missed this too: making anything with the tech system is a plain old craft skill check.

    Afterthought: Stuff like evolutionist when it turns into your racials would those get cloned or not?
    Last edited by nikkoli; 2016-03-19 at 12:37 PM.

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    Default Re: The Cloner (Class in 30 minutes, PEACH)

    You can get 90+ followers with a Leadership score of 22.

    That can be attained at a level of 8. This class reaches 90 clones at level 20.

    The problem here is not this class but a horribly broken system.

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    8+8+2+1+1+2 = 22.
    Last edited by UrsusArctos; 2016-03-19 at 02:15 PM.
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