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Thread: Girl Genius!

  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Yes, Agatha is in the Castle. But which of the Castle's personalities said "ENTER" in that spooooooky voice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakiwiboid View Post
    Yes, Agatha is in the Castle. But which of the Castle's personalities said "ENTER" in that spooooooky voice?
    The front door and attendant security subsystem, most likely.

    Since it needs to be able to recognize people who enter (castle security, proper greeting, and internal announcements), it's reasonable to assume that it's a bit more powerful, processing-wise, than the internal security subsystems (which are basically "Did I get the signal that this person's supposed to be here/doing that? No? KILL!").

    It's the one that sliced Zola's henchman open and used his blood to write the message... and had that little drop trap...


    ... oh, and it's SUCH a shame that they don't know Tiktoffen really works counter to Klaus. Yes, Agatha reporting straight to the wrong person...
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2007-12-26 at 11:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    I don't know, i think the Europe map is good evidence of a disaster...
    Beg pardon, but is that map in any of the online comics? Or is this additional material in one of the books?

  4. - Top - End - #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowballMan View Post
    Beg pardon, but is that map in any of the online comics? Or is this additional material in one of the books?
    As pointed out earlier, it's a map that's being sold through Cafe Press.

    If you look closely, you'll see Wulfenbach controls pretty much all of Central and Eastern Europe, while the UK and Ireland have suffered some sort of disaster. Ireland's been reduced to small islands, the center of Wales has been sunk, England proper has been shattered, Scotland's been bisected...
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  5. - Top - End - #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    ... oh, and it's SUCH a shame that they don't know Tiktoffen really works counter to Klaus. Yes, Agatha reporting straight to the wrong person...
    Not really...
    I mean, Agatha may be reporting to him and doesn't know that he's helping the false Heterdyne, but it's not like Agatha was planning on using him of all poeple... She thinks he's an inside man for Klaus and as such won't trust him... it doesn't matter if she doesn't know he's a double agent cause she's gonna be trating him like he's the enemy anyway

    what's really a problem is finding which prinsoners she can use... Before she reveals herself she would have to figure out the false Heterdyne's plan and realize that the prisoners are already working for her and have more then likely already been granted amnesty; which means they are less liekly to help her over the false one, especially since they might think she is also false

    Only ones she can trust that won't just reveal her are prinsoners that have some loyalty or love towards the true heterdynes

    grant it, Agatha will probably find out about their plan before they find out about hers, since they will probably want another hand in killing the castle... it's just a matter of Agatha finding who she can truly trust
    Last edited by slayerx; 2007-12-26 at 01:09 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Not really...
    I mean, Agatha may be reporting to him and doesn't know that he's helping the false Heterdyne, but it's not like Agatha was planning on using him of all poeple... She thinks he's an inside man for Klaus and as such won't trust him... it doesn't matter if she doesn't know he's a double agent cause she's gonna be trating him like he's the enemy anyway
    Ah, but if she DOES have to use him, she'll be running on the assumption that he'd be interested in looking after Klaus' interests. Problem is, he's not.

    Also, while we know Zola doesn't recognize Agatha as the 'Heterodyne Girl' (remember, Zola gave Agatha a coin in front of the Castle), things may change if Zola sees Agatha again. That'd have been a rather expedited trial and sentence to the Castle...
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    I want to know more about this backstory. Who'd she (allegedly) kill? Why?
    The above post made a lot more sense in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    I'm guessing her people aren't big users of the longbow, though, since she's still symmetrical.
    Adam and Jamie or Penn and Teller should do a show about the breastless Amazon myth. It's completely nonsensical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Ah, but if she DOES have to use him, she'll be running on the assumption that he'd be interested in looking after Klaus' interests. Problem is, he's not.
    Thing is, The professor will more then likely want to make use of agatha like any other prisoner since they are acting on their plan; as such he will probably reveal himself as Zola's inside man first... also, Agatha's gonna be careful about revealing herself, such that making sure she has something to offer the person before she uses them... thing is, even if she wants to make use of the professor she won't reveal herself to the professor; even if she makes him a Pro-Klaus offer he will be quick to turn it down and just laugh at her... as long as she doesn't reveal that she's the true heir she will be safe
    Also, while we know Zola doesn't recognize Agatha as the 'Heterodyne Girl' (remember, Zola gave Agatha a coin in front of the Castle), things may change if Zola sees Agatha again. That'd have been a rather expedited trial and sentence to the Castle...
    Agatha also knows that Zola has seen her and may take that into account... however, Zola only saw agatha for a quick instant, regarding her as nothing more than some mechinicsburg peasant, as such, her chances of actually reconizing Agatha are quite slim; she would have to really single her out amognst the hundrads of other poeple... the new clothing actually helps agatha since it makes it harder for her to be reconized; especially by someone who didn't pay much attention to her... Zola might get that nagging "have i seen her before?" feeling but i doubt she would actually remember... hell, even if Zola mentioned such a nagging feeling to agatha, agatha could just deny it, saying she's been in a holding cell all day and zola might believe her, thinking it was only a vague resembalance...

    Not to mention that we don't know about the trial proceedures of Mechinsburg... considering it's history, they may not have got much in the way of law and order... Being suspected of a crime or getting caught red-handed might be good enough to get you sent to the castle
    Last edited by slayerx; 2007-12-26 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Thing is, The professor will more then likely want to make use of agatha like any other prisoner since they are acting on their plan; as such he will probably reveal himself as Zola's inside man first...
    It cuts both ways. Tiktoffen wouldn't expose himself as Zola's inside man to a new arrival he knows nothing about; Agatha would have to see Tiktoffen taking orders from Zola to know. Agatha wouldn't (initially) reveal herself to be The Heterodyne until she's sure of who she can trust and who she should avoid - but even then, it'd be chancy...

    thing is, even if she wants to make use of the professor she won't reveal herself to the professor; even if she makes him a Pro-Klaus offer he will be quick to turn it down and just laugh at her... as long as she doesn't reveal that she's the true heir she will be safe
    But she's going to have to reveal herself if she wants a prisoner's help to get to the library; only the Heterodyne could make such an offer and not get laughed at.

    If it's one of Zola's inside folks, laying low, then it's gonna get nuts. Standard issue. You have the inside man who is the public face - the one you deal with directly ... but you also have an inside man who lays low, who just 'happens to be there' when the public face is being talked to...

    Zola might get that nagging "have i seen her before?" feeling but i doubt she would actually remember
    Some people have very nasty memories for faces - someone they saw, even in passing, is remembered a few hours later rather well.

    Not to mention that we don't know about the trial proceedures of Mechinsburg... considering it's history, they may not have got much in the way of law and order... Being suspected of a crime or getting caught red-handed might be good enough to get you sent to the castle
    Ah, but this isn't Mechanicsburg law. This is Wulfenbach Empire law. And, if anything, Wulfenbach is big on the law and order stuff. He may not be a GOOD man, but he is rather lawful.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2007-12-26 at 02:48 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl
    It cuts both ways. Tiktoffen wouldn't expose himself as Zola's inside man to a new arrival he knows nothing about; Agatha would have to see Tiktoffen taking orders from Zola to know. Agatha wouldn't (initially) reveal herself to be The Heterodyne until she's sure of who she can trust and who she should avoid - but even then, it'd be chancy...
    not so much... for one thing he has little reason to suspect Agatha of anything... there are only two things he would fear, the true heir or an inside man for Klaus...

    as for the former, he would probably expect the true heir to enter through the front door like Zola did, not sneak in as a prisoner... not to mention that the professor, like klaus, thinks that klaus has control of the prinsors and is completely unaware of Mechanicsburgs true leaders; as such a true heir would never be able to gain the trust of Klaus's poeple and be able to gain their help in sneaking her in... she'd actually have to commit some kind of horrible crime and get setenced there in order to sneak in

    As for the later... that suspicion has some more chance to it but that's all a matter of whether or not the professor thinks Klaus has reason to suspect him... if he regards Agatha as just another prisoner then he will probably be quick to make her an offer of amensty in exchance for her help; which is something all prisoners would want... hell even an inside man for the baron could go for that

    And the professor has not exactly been hiding the fact that he is working with Zola, he has been very open about it... Agatha seeing him working with Zola before she starts exposing herself is very high

    But she's going to have to reveal herself if she wants a prisoner's help to get to the library; only the Heterodyne could make such an offer and not get laughed at.
    And yes agatha would need to reveal herself to gain the help of the prisoners, but the professor is not one of them... As someone who is working for Klaus, he should be regarded as the least trustworthy... like Snapper and Vasquez, the professor will be one of the last poeple she wll go to for help

    as for the other prisoners... Agatha's gonna be careful with all of them... because they are all there for some kind of crime they are not poeple to be easily trusted... Agatha will try to get a feel for who they are before she goes and exposes herself. Anyone she can tell that is loyal to the true heterodyne's will be fast ally's along with those who are in there for less serious crimes (such as just pissing off Klaus)... whether or not she exposes herself to another spy depends on how good of an act the spy is playing and how agatha plays her cards

    y'know though, i think there is someone else who will either be a great ally to Agatha or a major risk to her operation... though we have not seen him yet, the laws of plot state that Von Zinzer is one of the prinsoners in the castle... he may either end up expsoing Agatha the moment he sees her or wind up being the best help she can get in the castle. Grant it, it's uncertain if he knows she's the heterodyne or not; but if she is using a false name and he refers to her by a different name it could get messy... My bet though, is that Von Zinzer will be surprised when he sees her and will come close to exposing her, but Agatha willuse some quick thinking to shut him up, drag him to someplace secluded and then explain the sistuation to him... she'd have little choice but to trust him considering he's already in a position to screw her over

    Some people have very nasty memories for faces - someone they saw, even in passing, is remembered a few hours later rather well.
    True, but chances still favor Agatha... As not everyone has such memory and those that do would have to reconize Agatha from any other girl they might have seen in their life... she might reconize agtha, but their is a high chance that she will not remember from where and when

    Ah, but this isn't Mechanicsburg law. This is Wulfenbach Empire law. And, if anything, Wulfenbach is big on the law and order stuff. He may not be a GOOD man, but he is rather lawful.
    True, but as we occasionally see, not every town follows that Baron strictly and as long as they don't cause trouble usually don't get trouble from the baron... especially Mechanicsburg considering how they have a fake gov't reporting to klaus and as such they can hide how they do things... so they can treat their own prisoners like they want and still get away with it... not to mention the Baron's system of law system is probably more strict than our own... the baron probably keeps his trials as short as possible to make sure prisoners are put away fast; a criminal that get's caught while actually commiting a murder for intance might get sent off to the castle very fast as his guilt is obvious and a trial is seen as unecessary (baron may not give much chance for reduced sentences)

  12. - Top - End - #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    not so much... for one thing he has little reason to suspect Agatha of anything... there are only two things he would fear, the true heir or an inside man for Klaus...
    But then, he doesn't KNOW Agatha. She just walked in. He has her papers. What else does he know about her? Nothing at all. Not her mentality, her thought processes, her loyalty, her disposition...

    And the professor has not exactly been hiding the fact that he is working with Zola, he has been very open about it... Agatha seeing him working with Zola before she starts exposing herself is very high
    But then, the prisoners have been with him quite a while; he knows them and has probably given them an 'alternative'. Around the 'new girl', he'd be more cautious.

    y'know though, i think there is someone else who will either be a great ally to Agatha or a major risk to her operation... though we have not seen him yet, the laws of plot state that Von Zinzer is one of the prinsoners in the castle... he may either end up expsoing Agatha the moment he sees her or wind up being the best help she can get in the castle.
    Actually, we already know Von Zinzer is going to work with Agatha; she did, after all, help him look for his friends through all the 'time portals', did she not?

    True, but chances still favor Agatha... As not everyone has such memory and those that do would have to reconize Agatha from any other girl they might have seen in their life... she might reconize agtha, but their is a high chance that she will not remember from where and when
    She can't take the chance.

    True, but as we occasionally see, not every town follows that Baron strictly *snip*
    What is it Herr Damiant said? "These are people the Empire (emphasis mine) wants to go away." Not Mechanicsburg.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2007-12-26 at 03:46 PM.
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    There's always the possibility that she could meet someone she knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl
    But then, he doesn't KNOW Agatha. She just walked in. He has her papers. What else does he know about her? Nothing at all. Not her mentality, her thought processes, her loyalty, her disposition...
    There's not much to question... i mean, getting sent to the castle is considered the most feared sentence. what prisoner in their right mind would NOT want to help Zola and the professor and thus get out of their... Really, what he has to offer the prisoners is practially an offer they can not refuse, not even an insider for the baron (as an insider is still doomed to work the castle)... the poeple he would not trust are very few and rare as only the true heir would refuse what he can offer

    not to mention that anyone he feels he couldn't trust he could easily have killed in an instant

    But then, the prisoners have been with him quite a while; he knows them and has probably given them an 'alternative'. Around the 'new girl', he'd be more cautious.
    Both him and Zola have been very casual about all this... and consdering how Zola doesn't have regular communication with the professor (as she was not able to warn him about stepping up their time table) she doesn't know which of those prisoners she can trust but has been acting natrually around them none-the-less... Considering how much control she already has over the poeple on the inside she probably believes that she can trust all of them based on the fact they would have to be stupid NOT to help her take over, since helping her means freedom for them

    Actually, we already know Von Zinzer is going to work with Agatha; she did, after all, help him look for his friends through all the 'time portals', did she not?
    We can't be sure... sure we know that how things will eventually be, but we have no idea about all the hick up and bumps that will occur along they way; remember he IS still pissed off at her for killing his brother (or so he thinks) and his time in the castle would not have changed that... it would take quite a bit of convincing to get him to help her and until then we have no idea what he might do... he may not help her here, but end up helping her at some future point and thus leading to a friendship between them... Hell, he may not even expose her on purpose but only by accident, such as calling out her real name (different then what might be on the paper work) out of surprise orf running into her

    She can't take the chance.
    She doesn't have to... she will be careful to avoid Zola as much as possible just for that fact that she would kill Agatha if she found out who she was the true heir; much less the possibility of Zola reconziing her; it's not like Zola is one of the poeple Agatha will need to gain the trust of or use... Though a run in with zola is rather envitiable since it will be hard to avoid her while acting like a normal prisoner... heh, Agatha might want to make use of those shades on her head to make herself look less reconizable

    What is it Herr Damiant said? "These are people the Empire (emphasis mine) wants to go away." Not Mechanicsburg.
    True, but that does not mean that mechanicsburg doesn't send their own prisoners there from time to time... Sending a murderer to the castle instead of a holding cell makes chance for escape all the slimmer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan305
    There's always the possibility that she could meet someone she knows.
    i think this page is a better reference for what your going for ^^
    Last edited by slayerx; 2007-12-26 at 04:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    I think this page is a better reference for what your going for ^^
    It is indeed, but I couldn't remember where that one was. Thank-you.

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    Oh internets, how you make me laugh. Y'all were trying to figure out the location of the comic via bust size? :P

    Anyway, I'm pleased that /someone/ else (Read some backbuffer) also thinks that Gil's mom is from Skifander. It means someone is helping me plant my epileptic trees.. XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    There's not much to question... i mean, getting sent to the castle is considered the most feared sentence. what prisoner in their right mind would NOT want to help Zola and the professor and thus get out of their...
    Except for the truly insane ones. What if she used the 'mechanical whisk' method of murder?

    not to mention that anyone he feels he couldn't trust he could easily have killed in an instant
    The trick would be to make it look like an accident. I mean, all he'd have to do is send them into a known 'dangerous' area.

    Both him and Zola have been very casual about all this... and consdering how Zola doesn't have regular communication with the professor (as she was not able to warn him about stepping up their time table)
    Actually, she does. How do you think he'd have sent for her if he wasn't in contact? How do you think 'all the reports' would have indicated that there were 12 entities in control of the castle if information wasn't being passed in and out? She wasn't able to warn him about stepping up the timetable because it all happened so quick. The moment they heard about the Heterodyne, they had to act; she left immediately to make a move on Mechanicsburg before Agatha could get to the Castle. No time in between to actually get a message through to Tiktoffen.


    True, but that does not mean that mechanicsburg doesn't send their own prisoners there from time to time... Sending a murderer to the castle instead of a holding cell makes chance for escape all the slimmer...
    That would run counter to Mechanicsburg's method of solving problems.

    How do they solve all the 'heterodyne heirs'? Let the castle kill them.
    They try to get their problems to go away ... quietly. No muss, no mess, no fuss.
    If someone truly committed a murder in Mechanicsburg, what do you think more likely? That they send them to work in the Castle... or let the Castle immediately kill them? Or do ... something ... that would, in the end, make their own mother doubt they even had a child in the first place?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Except for the truly insane ones. What if she used the 'mechanical whisk' method of murder?
    Now that's probably something that would be noted on the prisoner's paperwork... Saying that she is not only a murder but insane and unstable. It's in the professors best interest that he would know that kind of information. The professor probably has a decent idea of who he's dealing with.
    The trick would be to make it look like an accident. I mean, all he'd have to do is send them into a known 'dangerous' area.
    He probably wouldn't even need to make it look like an accident... i mean, who is he exactly hiding the murders from? all of those prisoners are in on the scheme and as such would be quick to agree with killing anyone they can't work with, killing anyone who would sooner halt their plans then help... only one who would care is the baron and no one's gonna be reporting this stuff to him
    Actually, she does. How do you think he'd have sent for her if he wasn't in contact? How do you think 'all the reports' would have indicated that there were 12 entities in control of the castle if information wasn't being passed in and out? She wasn't able to warn him about stepping up the timetable because it all happened so quick. The moment they heard about the Heterodyne, they had to act; she left immediately to make a move on Mechanicsburg before Agatha could get to the Castle. No time in between to actually get a message through to Tiktoffen.
    That's why i said "regular" communication, meaning she can't talk to him whenever she wants to... She might be limited to only getting in touch with him like once a week or once a month... fact is, some new arrivals could have shown up just days or maybe a few hours ago and yet Zola has made no effort to hide herself from any prisoner that might not be "in" on their schemes

    That would run counter to Mechanicsburg's method of solving problems.

    How do they solve all the 'heterodyne heirs'? Let the castle kill them.
    They try to get their problems to go away ... quietly. No muss, no mess, no fuss.
    If someone truly committed a murder in Mechanicsburg, what do you think more likely? That they send them to work in the Castle... or let the Castle immediately kill them? Or do ... something ... that would, in the end, make their own mother doubt they even had a child in the first place?
    [/QUOTE]
    Thing is, getting the castle repaired is also within the best interests of mechanicsburg... So it's actually a very good idea to put such poeple to work instead of getting rid of them in any other fashion

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Now that's probably something that would be noted on the prisoner's paperwork... Saying that she is not only a murder but insane and unstable. It's in the professors best interest that he would know that kind of information. The professor probably has a decent idea of who he's dealing with.
    But then, someone who murders another person isn't exactly sane, now, are they?

    He probably wouldn't even need to make it look like an accident... i mean, who is he exactly hiding the murders from? all of those prisoners are in on the scheme and as such would be quick to agree with killing anyone they can't work with, killing anyone who would sooner halt their plans then help... only one who would care is the baron and no one's gonna be reporting this stuff to him
    Wulfenbach! A prisoner being killed on a detail is one thing - it's known to be dangerous. But one prisoner killing another? That warrants someone poking around - they're supposed to be working on the castle, not fighting one another. And the Baron's men have to know who dies and who doesn't for paperwork purposes - who's due to be released and who still has a bit to go. And who dies, so they can process the paperwork to say 'we don't have to track this person anymore'.

    That's why i said "regular" communication, meaning she can't talk to him whenever she wants to... She might be limited to only getting in touch with him like once a week or once a month... fact is, some new arrivals could have shown up just days or maybe a few hours ago and yet Zola has made no effort to hide herself from any prisoner that might not be "in" on their schemes
    Regular implies a schedule, arranged times, timed releases, etc, though. One of the fun parts of a clockwork schedule that would be the Castle Punishment is knowing when people can get out without arousing suspicion.
    As for new people coming in, Zola would have people on the inside @ Wulfenbach - who's been sentenced there and is due to be incarcerated.
    It'd be what I do.
    And, yes, they DID make an effort - notice how Tiktoffen ran away from the gathering spot to meet Zola? Notice how he walked down a corridor, presumably away from the normal prisoners, to his people?

    Thing is, getting the castle repaired is also within the best interests of mechanicsburg... So it's actually a very good idea to put such poeple to work instead of getting rid of them in any other fashion
    Without a Heterodyne, though, a rebuilt Castle would be a target for the undesireables. People would fight over the Castle; as long as it's in disarray, nobody's interested in Mechanicsburg. When it's rebuilt, how long do you think it'd take for more vultures like Zola to try to take it over or loot it for what knowledge it contains?
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    But then, someone who murders another person isn't exactly sane, now, are they?
    Debatable... there's a difference between poeple who are just plain evil and those who are bat**** crazy... One you send to a jail cell and the other you send to a mental institute. Point is, if a prisoner was so crazy that they would sooner kill everyone in the castle than work to get out, or cause the professor a serious amount of trouble, the professor would be given that kind of info
    Wulfenbach! A prisoner being killed on a detail is one thing - it's known to be dangerous. But one prisoner killing another? That warrants someone poking around - they're supposed to be working on the castle, not fighting one another. And the Baron's men have to know who dies and who doesn't for paperwork purposes - who's due to be released and who still has a bit to go. And who dies, so they can process the paperwork to say 'we don't have to track this person anymore'.
    But how is Wulfenbach gonna know? The Professor is the one who reports to the baron; he could have someone killed and just report it as an accident... have the guy stabbed and just say he got stabbed by a trap... there's no one to contradict his reports

    Regular implies a schedule, arranged times, timed releases, etc, though. One of the fun parts of a clockwork schedule that would be the Castle Punishment is knowing when people can get out without arousing suspicion.
    As for new people coming in, Zola would have people on the inside @ Wulfenbach - who's been sentenced there and is due to be incarcerated.
    It'd be what I do.
    And, yes, they DID make an effort - notice how Tiktoffen ran away from the gathering spot to meet Zola? Notice how he walked down a corridor, presumably away from the normal prisoners, to his people?
    There isn't anyway out of the castle. Trying to escape on its own tends to be a suicdie run and even if you got out there are guards outside the castle that will shoot prisoners on site... the only way for anyone to get out is when the complete their points... and the professor couldn't fake the points without looking suspicious; the baron probably has a decent idea of how long it would take to complete a certain number of points and would suspect something if prisoners were getting months or years earlier then they should

    If i had to guess, i would say that Zola may have small clanks similar to Agatha's clanks that can sneak in and out and deliver messages

    And Tiktorren was not in any particular spot when we first saw him... that seemed to be any random spot; him metting up with a prisoner to check on their work. The only reason he ran down those corridors to met her was because it was either he goes to her or she comes to him; and seeing as she has no idea where he is exactly it only makes sence he would go to her... so far i see little effort to hide themselves... absolutely no effort to make sure no prisoners who are not supposed to be around are gone, none... and if their were such prisoners their damn well would be more more panic on the professor's part since he was not ready for Zola's arrival and as such any prisoners that are not supposed to just happen to walk in on them could be right around the corner from them

    Without a Heterodyne, though, a rebuilt Castle would be a target for the undesireables. People would fight over the Castle; as long as it's in disarray, nobody's interested in Mechanicsburg. When it's rebuilt, how long do you think it'd take for more vultures like Zola to try to take it over or loot it for what knowledge it contains?
    If the castle were rebuilt, when it is no longer in disarray, it would be able to defend itself... the castle would be able to easily crush anyone who attempt to take over and possibly destory anyone who would try to attack the town... even if they know the castle inside and out the castle could probably kill anyone despite that knowlegde; only reason they can avoid traps is because the traps are being operated by stupid automatic systems instead of the more intellgent and more controlled main intellegence.

    Not to mention that the "Old masters" would punish the poeple of mechanicsburg if they did not try to rebuild the castle... a master would expect that his home would be intact when he comes home... it's mcuh like how "dying" is considered a poor escuse for not continueing to serve. Really, if mechanicsburg made no effort to repair the castle and a heterodyne returned, particularly one that was like older generations, i would NOT want to be the one to explain why the castle is still in ruins after 18 years and why we made no effort to repair it

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Debatable... there's a difference between poeple who are just plain evil and those who are bat**** crazy... One you send to a jail cell and the other you send to a mental institute. Point is, if a prisoner was so crazy that they would sooner kill everyone in the castle than work to get out, or cause the professor a serious amount of trouble, the professor would be given that kind of info
    As for the 'mental institution' thing, look at how they deal with 'Heterodyne Heirs'. They don't treat these folks like they're mentally ill (ie, the Jesus Syndrome), they just outright kill them. And there's another reason why Tiktoffen can't make any overt moves ...

    But how is Wulfenbach gonna know? The Professor is the one who reports to the baron; he could have someone killed and just report it as an accident... have the guy stabbed and just say he got stabbed by a trap... there's no one to contradict his reports
    You sure? You don't think that among the prisoners is a Wulfenbach Man reporting back? Someone to watch Tiktoffen as well? Plus, there's a third player to factor in - the Castle itself. The prisoners killing one another mean one less person to work on the Castle - it wouldn't like that. Oh, no, not in the least.

    There isn't anyway out of the castle. Trying to escape on its own tends to be a suicdie run and even if you got out there are guards outside the castle that will shoot prisoners on site... the only way for anyone to get out is when the complete their points...
    Actually, there are two ways out of the castle. One for convicts (by completing their sentence or accumulating enough points), the other for the resupply folks. While the resupply folks are thoroughly scrutinized, there's something you cannot physically inspect - what's in their head. Zola's men could be on the resupply duty, have a little chat with Tiktoffen, and come out. Nothing's being passed back and forth, physically, so there's nothing to find on inspection. But, once they're past the inspection point, the conversation is still in their head.

    and the professor couldn't fake the points without looking suspicious
    Who says he needs to fake them? He can be generous on specific repairs or good behavior.

    Not to mention that the "Old masters" would punish the poeple of mechanicsburg if they did not try to rebuild the castle... a master would expect that his home would be intact when he comes home... it's mcuh like how "dying" is considered a poor escuse for not continueing to serve. Really, if mechanicsburg made no effort to repair the castle and a heterodyne returned, particularly one that was like older generations, i would NOT want to be the one to explain why the castle is still in ruins after 18 years and why we made no effort to repair it
    If the 'old masters' returned, they'd understand because the people of Mechanicsburg were protecting the secrets of the castle and the town by not making it a target. The Castle may well defend the town, but as evidence has shown, even IT can fail - hence, its current condition. As long as the Castle is in ruins and a trap-filled menace, nobody in their right mind would try to get in. Without the Castle, Mechanicsburg is just another town under Wulfenbach's control.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2007-12-27 at 11:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    As for the 'mental institution' thing, look at how they deal with 'Heterodyne Heirs'. They don't treat these folks like they're mentally ill (ie, the Jesus Syndrome), they just outright kill them. And there's another reason why Tiktoffen can't make any overt moves ...
    True, but again this is besides the main point that Tiktoffen would be informed if such a dangerous prisoner was being sent to the castle...
    You sure? You don't think that among the prisoners is a Wulfenbach Man reporting back? Someone to watch Tiktoffen as well? Plus, there's a third player to factor in - the Castle itself. The prisoners killing one another mean one less person to work on the Castle - it wouldn't like that. Oh, no, not in the least.
    Possible, but it does not seem to be the case since Diamant made no note of any other inside men of the baron's... Also, even if it was the case, Zola's poeple could easily get a potential spy on their side. The inside men of the baron are prisoners themselves and are doomed to serve their sentence in the castle; they'd have to be mad to turn down a chance for early release and being granted amnesity...

    As for the castle, the castle's main intellegnece is not at work, only the stupider subsystems... so it's ability to think is hindered... not to mention that those subsystems are mad and murderous and as such do not mind the occassional murder. i mean really, considering the prisoners are often killers it would not be surprising if the prisoners were already beat eachother up and killing eachother every once in a while
    Actually, there are two ways out of the castle. One for convicts (by completing their sentence or accumulating enough points), the other for the resupply folks. While the resupply folks are thoroughly scrutinized, there's something you cannot physically inspect - what's in their head. Zola's men could be on the resupply duty, have a little chat with Tiktoffen, and come out. Nothing's being passed back and forth, physically, so there's nothing to find on inspection. But, once they're past the inspection point, the conversation is still in their head.
    That is very true...
    Though back to the orginal point which is that Zola can't communicate with the men on the inside whenever she wants and that she currently does not know if their were any new arrivals to the castle; and yet she seems to walk around casually... meaning everyone was easily brought to her side or she just plain doesn't fear them
    Who says he needs to fake them? He can be generous on specific repairs or good behavior.
    Yes but being too generous would be suspisous... sure the baron would not be surprised if a prisoner got a out a couple of weeks sooner, but he would be suspicious if they got our months or years sooner; especially if it was more than one prisoner... The baron more then likely sets the standards
    If the 'old masters' returned, they'd understand because the people of Mechanicsburg were protecting the secrets of the castle and the town by not making it a target. The Castle may well defend the town, but as evidence has shown, even IT can fail - hence, its current condition. As long as the Castle is in ruins and a trap-filled menace, nobody in their right mind would try to get in. Without the Castle, Mechanicsburg is just another town under Wulfenbach's control.
    If it were the likes of Bill, Barry, or Agatha, then you'd have a point... but the old masters, the one's who came before them were downright insane. AS such they would expect that their castle be up and running by the time they returned... you don't let your insane master come home to a mess; and the poeple of mechanicsburg hope for ANY heterodyne to come back, not just the good ones. They would still work to repair the castle out of pride, loyalty, and fear

    And yes the castle can fail, but you have a bit of contradition in there... As you said, the castle only becomes a target if it's fully repaired, but at the same time, the only way the castle has been seen to fail is when the enemy highly damaged it; which in turn renders it useless to anyone who would want it (like it's current condition)... in other words, if someone seeked to control that castle when it is fully awaken, they would have to take control of the castle WITHOUT damaging it

    If they are willing to highly damage the castle in order to control it, then they would target it NOW when it's most vulnarable (just as Zola is trying to do)... but if they only want to capture the castle when it is in full working order, they will have to deal with a castle that is at it's most dangerous and powerful; considering how hard it is to take the castle when it's vulnarable, THAT is a task that may be damn near impossible

    All in all, the best protection for the castle against those who would seek to control it is for the castle to be fully repaired and capable of defending itself... yes it might make it a more attractive target, but that won't matter as much as it is nearly impossible to take contol of it without heavily damaging it and rendering it useless

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    True, but again this is besides the main point that Tiktoffen would be informed if such a dangerous prisoner was being sent to the castle...
    Every prisoner is dangerous. These aren't people who stole a loaf of bread from the market because they were starving. Who knows, when inside, what the people may do after exposure to the Castle?

    Possible, but it does not seem to be the case since Diamant made no note of any other inside men of the baron's...
    Tiktoffen is the 'public' man. Anyone else would be hiding their true allegiance and be unknown to Damiant or Tiktoffen as one of 'The Baron's Men'.

    Also, even if it was the case, Zola's poeple could easily get a potential spy on their side. The inside men of the baron are prisoners themselves and are doomed to serve their sentence in the castle; they'd have to be mad to turn down a chance for early release and being granted amnesity...
    No, they couldn't. The Baron's Silent Inside Man would not be a prisoner - they'd be there by choice. Much like how Agatha is getting in through forged papers, the Silent Baron Man would be there through legitimate papers drawn up for the specific purpose of hiding them in the general population. He'd be good enough and smart enough to avoid the Castle's traps... or, be put there for a reason that would avoid the more dangerous assignments... like the cook.

    As for the castle, the castle's main intellegnece is not at work, only the stupider subsystems... so it's ability to think is hindered... not to mention that those subsystems are mad and murderous and as such do not mind the occassional murder. i mean really, considering the prisoners are often killers it would not be surprising if the prisoners were already beat eachother up and killing eachother every once in a while
    Remember what happened when the first men of the Baron's got into the Castle? One of the party refused to repair the Castle - the subsystem reacted by squashing him flat. Oh, it's intelligent enough to know when someone's not cooperating...

    Yes but being too generous would be suspisous... sure the baron would not be surprised if a prisoner got a out a couple of weeks sooner, but he would be suspicious if they got our months or years sooner; especially if it was more than one prisoner... The baron more then likely sets the standards
    Which they would KNOW. People who get set into the Castle KNOW what the duration of the sentence would be. People would know what crimes the Empire considers worthy of being sent to the Castle are and how long they'd be in there. Tiktoffen also knows the point system. All of that can be manipulated to their advantage.

    And yes the castle can fail, but you have a bit of contradition in there... As you said, the castle only becomes a target if it's fully repaired, but at the same time, the only way the castle has been seen to fail is when the enemy highly damaged it; which in turn renders it useless to anyone who would want it (like it's current condition)... in other words, if someone seeked to control that castle when it is fully awaken, they would have to take control of the castle WITHOUT damaging it
    It's not a contradiction.

    The Castle is a target if it's fully repaired because THERE'S NO HETERODYNE. No Heterodyne means nobody's truly in control of the Castle except for the Central Control Unit. That means that SOMEONE could try to take over by subverting the CCU - which was Zola's original plan, after all, before Agatha popped in to throw a monkeywrench into the plans.

    And don't you think the Castle failed when it failed to prevent itself from being damaged? Somehow, someone got in and blew the Castle up while it was fully functional...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    SNIP!
    People who get set into the Castle KNOW what the duration of the sentence would be. People would know what crimes the Empire considers worthy of being sent to the Castle are and how long they'd be in there. Tiktoffen also knows the point system. All of that can be manipulated to their advantage.
    When I look here at the point system in action, it really looks as if the length of a sentence would be kind of fluid. Oh, people would know roughly how long someone's supposed to be in for, but if someone's really good at repairing the Castle or finding out information about it, they could lop a lot of time off their sentence. Tiktoffen could, of course, as you point out, just say that they had, but I imagine that it's hard to measure the passing days inside that thing anyway. Two people in for the same crime might end up serving noticeably different lengths of time, but it could all be chalked up to expertise in gaining point, or, on the other hand, having pissed off Tiktoffen.
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    Well... seems like we are going back to the weasal queen storyline... meh
    Really i would much rather prefer sticking to main story... it's can be just as entertaining, but much more interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Every prisoner is dangerous. These aren't people who stole a loaf of bread from the market because they were starving. Who knows, when inside, what the people may do after exposure to the Castle?
    They are dangerous, but the professor and Zola can still work with them... the ONLY ones he couldn't work with are ones crazy and blood thirsty enough that they would rather kill than get out of the castle sooner, and the professor would be told if such a person was being sent to the castle... any other prisoner, no matter how dangerous would be quick to ally with Zola to get an early release

    also, not every prisnoner is dangerous... some are just there for minor reasons like pissing off the Baron (alla Von Zinzer)
    No, they couldn't. The Baron's Silent Inside Man would not be a prisoner - they'd be there by choice. Much like how Agatha is getting in through forged papers, the Silent Baron Man would be there through legitimate papers drawn up for the specific purpose of hiding them in the general population. He'd be good enough and smart enough to avoid the Castle's traps... or, be put there for a reason that would avoid the more dangerous assignments... like the cook.
    Highly unlikely if not impossible... Even the professor, the current inside man IS a prisoner and is there against his will. No man in their right mind would serve in the castle willingly; even the most careful poeple could wind up killed, espeically since they have to keep the act up for months on end... it would bascially be a suicide mission; and the baron doesn't seem to have that kind of loyal following, and the few that do have such follow would have better use elsewhere in the empire than keeping an eye on prisoners. Furtharmore, in order to avoid suspicion, he would have to act like anyother prisoner which would including working to get out and unknowinly taking on dangerous work... the castle in it's current state is rather unpredicable and most of the jobs have unknown risks... Sure we saw that Zola was able to map out some traps but if they were able to map out all of them then the professor could direct the prisoners in a way to avoid them getting killed

    Really, anyone loyal enough to actually volunteer for such a suicide mission would have better uses elsewhere... i mean, repairing the castle is obviously not on the baron's top priorities list... if it was he would be sending more capable poeple in there instead of poeple who are bascially being sentenced to death. He would have focus on figuring out how to keep poeple alive in there so that he can get more willing poeple, including the option of poeple being payed (A LOT) to work in there; hell he would send sparks in there to get the job done (particualy ones he was gonna kill with experiments anyway)... He'd be working so closely that Zola would never have been able to get as close as she has without him knowing it

    Hell, if the baron DID have another inside man he would probably have already known about Zola's plans and gotten rid of all those working for her... but as we've seen he's completly in the dark about all of this
    Remember what happened when the first men of the Baron's got into the Castle? One of the party refused to repair the Castle - the subsystem reacted by squashing him flat. Oh, it's intelligent enough to know when someone's not cooperating...
    Well, right NOW, Zola and her poeple are doing nothing but standing around talking about how their gonna KILL the castle... and yet the castle does not react...
    Which they would KNOW. People who get set into the Castle KNOW what the duration of the sentence would be. People would know what crimes the Empire considers worthy of being sent to the Castle are and how long they'd be in there. Tiktoffen also knows the point system. All of that can be manipulated to their advantage.
    Well, unless they have their own poeple sitting on the judge stand, they can't really be certain as to how long of a sentence a prisoner will get... as for the point system, it still comes down to Tiktoffen avoiding suspicion... in order to release a prisoner sooner he would have to be overly generous but if one too many prisoners seem to be completing their points to soon, the Baron may get suspicious and that is something Tiktoffen will not want... Sure any spy the Baron sends in would probably work for Zola, but Tiktoffen himself might not be so lucky and might be forced by the new spy (the new point taker) to work like everyone else which could get him killed

    It's not a contradiction.

    The Castle is a target if it's fully repaired because THERE'S NO HETERODYNE. No Heterodyne means nobody's truly in control of the Castle except for the Central Control Unit. That means that SOMEONE could try to take over by subverting the CCU - which was Zola's original plan, after all, before Agatha popped in to throw a monkeywrench into the plans.
    The only reason Zola is able to get so far as she can is because she does not have to deal with central control unit and a fully working castle... When the cetral control unit is in control and the castle is fully operational it becomes more capable of defending itself... just like the stories of intruders getting lost for weeks and dissappearing, or guests finding their rooms in a different part of the castle... the only reson zola can avoid traps now is because she is dealing with the subsystems, but with the castle in control it may beable to set up new traps and rearrange itself so that all hope of predicting traps becomes lost... Even that castle itself demands that it be repaired, that it's within it's best interest to be repaired and sees no saftly in it's damaged position; probably feeling more vunarable

    Hell right now, Zola is planning to "kill" the castle, something she probably couldn't do if that castle was fully working... She could kill the castle now and maybe later figured out how it worked and restore it under her control... if the castle were awaken, she would probably be squashed flat by now, if not squashed when she tried to do anything that might "kill" the castle..

    Really, all the presence of a Heterodyne means is that their is someone to direct the castle and order it around, however that does not mean their is no one controling it as the castle is capable of controlling itself... Without a heterodyne, the castle will move on it's own and protect itself
    And don't you think the Castle failed when it failed to prevent itself from being damaged? Somehow, someone got in and blew the Castle up while it was fully functional...
    We have no idea how the castle was damaged... i don't recall anyone that said that attack came from the inside or from the outside, whether the person was a complete stanger or someone trusted like Lucrazia or one of the servents; hell it could have been somekind of teleportation/cross dimensional/time travel attack or something... we just don't know

    However, one thing that's easy to assume though... getting a bomb inside and blowing it up is bound to be A LOT easier than a non-heterodyne getting close to the most vital control parts of the castle and taking control of the castle... Really, when the castle is fully away it would probably crush any non-heterodyne thing that moves anywhere remotely close to such parts... it's well known, that trying to damage something is A LOT easier then trying to capture it intact
    Last edited by slayerx; 2007-12-28 at 06:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slayerx View Post
    Well... seems like we are going back to the weasal queen storyline... meh
    Really i would much rather prefer sticking to main story... it's can be just as entertaining, but much more interesting
    I suspect the Weasel Queen things are a buffer of filler while the Foglios work on the main story.

    And we're about to find how big a stick, exactly. You can't say that's not interesting.


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    When I first archive binged the comic, I skipped the filler short stories.
    Then I went back and read them and immediately regretted it. Weasel Queen was the best one, in my opinion, so I'm looking forward to this.
    The above post made a lot more sense in my head.

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    weasel Queen is good because it features
    OTHAR TRAVASSALGAN
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    Now if it could include Jagers somehow, Othar+ Jagers would be awsome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    weasel Queen is good because it features
    OTHAR TRAVASSALGAN
    Gentleman Adventurer


    Now if it could include Jagers somehow, Othar+ Jagers would be awsome.
    Pah. I understand the need for filler and all (and it's good filler, and well timed) but I just can't wait to see the Heart of the Castle!

    Curse you, Foglios, for making Girl Genius so darn addictive! I've already binged the archives at twice already!

    Also: !
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2007-12-28 at 11:48 PM.
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    [QUOTE=Bloddyredcommie;3720314]weasel Queen is good because it features
    OTHAR TRAVASSALGAN
    Gentleman Adventurer

    That would be "Tryggvassen", actually.

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