[5e] Oath of the Arcane - Paladin Archetype

[AmbientRaven]

Hi Folks!

I have been procrastinating my Uni Essay, and decided to continue working on some archetypes I am home-brewing.

I have started recently playing a Cleric of Mystra. In doing so I have been reading more about her, and I found the Knights of the Arcane Fire (her paladins) to be rather interesting. Arcane infused paladins whom hunt for magical artifacts and seem to have an anti-mage feel to them. With that I decided that I would try and emulate them in 5th.
This is version 1.0 so it may require a lot of work! I am unsure about the 15th and 20th level abilities, but feel relatively happy with the rest of them but I am open to suggestions and balance tweaks and would love some feedback!

Version 1.1: http://www.naturalcrit.com/homebrew/share/V1RUNlPTx

Change log:
Arcane Knowledge: May only be used once per long rest. Requires components still if the spell is above third level.
Spell shatter: Changed to always require a cha check to dispell.
Cloak of Diffusion: Useable a number of times equal to charisma modifier
Arcane Supreme: Removed advantage vs spells, and forced disadvantage on spell attacks.

[Arnakalar]

I like this idea a lot!

A friend of mine just put together his first draft of an Oath of Warding with a similar focus on magic/anti-magic. You can find it here!

I'm not sure about the spell list. While things like magic missile, mirror image, and dimension door are staples of Wizards & their ilk, it doesn't scream 'guardians and keepers of magic'. I think dispel magic should probably be in there, nystul's magic aura, and maybe mordenkainen's private sanctum or similar.

You have 'Channel Divinity' as a header twice. I'd also specify that if they already have Arcana they can pick any other skill.

Arcane Knowledge - this seems far too powerful to me... I could easily be wrong, but it's basically half a wish without expending a spell slot, and you can ignore the expensive material components of things like stoneskin, which HAVE those components so that people don't spam them all the time (such as 1/short rest). FWIW, I gave a similar ability to a 14th level warlock patron, usable once per short rest and consumes a spell slot to cast a spell 2 levels lower, and I'm still worried it's OP.

Spellshatter - Personally I'd probably just make this a straight 'channel, get a free smite and a dispel magic', not a 1 minute buff. Or use the (homebrew, see above) 'Dispelling Smite' spell.

Aura of Focus - I like this. It might be a little finicky because static bonuses are somewhat rare. I don't know if it would be too powerful, underpowered, just right, whatever. But I like it.

Cloak of Diffusion - does this have a limit to how often you can use it or what? Somehow it seems OP and lack-luster.

Arcane Supreme - Whoa - capstones should be powerful, but this still seems like a lot - this is a major warlock class feature (most of their improvements to spellcasting from 11th-20th), and you get to change your spells every day, AND you get permanent magic resistance?

[AmbientRaven]

I like this idea a lot!

Thanks!

You have 'Channel Divinity' as a header twice. I'd also specify that if they already have Arcana they can pick any other skill.

Fixed, thank you :)

Arcane Knowledge - this seems far too powerful to me... I could easily be wrong, but it's basically half a wish without expending a spell slot, and you can ignore the expensive material components of things like stoneskin, which HAVE those components so that people don't spam them all the time (such as 1/short rest). FWIW, I gave a similar ability to a 14th level warlock patron, usable once per short rest and consumes a spell slot to cast a spell 2 levels lower, and I'm still worried it's OP.

I added in requiring components for 4th and 5th level spells. I also added it 1/Long rest as well to pull back on it's use. It is still limited by slower spell progression, inability to cast as a bonus action or reaction.
How do these changes look?

Spellshatter - Personally I'd probably just make this a straight 'channel, get a free smite and a dispel magic', not a 1 minute buff. Or use the (homebrew, see above) 'Dispelling Smite' spell.

I was trying to keep the flavor in line with the ability and lore. It is still very restricted by burning smite slots, as well as Paladin spell levels being behind most "buff" casters.
I may change it though to either always require 10+Level charisma checks to tone it back a bit, so it is not guaranteed vs lower level spells.

Aura of Focus - I like this. It might be a little finicky because static bonuses are somewhat rare. I don't know if it would be too powerful, underpowered, just right, whatever. But I like it.

I was trying to find a way to bestemulate the effect they have on magic, without copying ancient's aura.

Cloak of Diffusion - does this have a limit to how often you can use it or what? Somehow it seems OP and lack-luster.

forgot to add equal to Cha per day. It is only useable against spells. So things like dragon's breath, falling into a fire ect. it won't work.

Arcane Supreme - Whoa - capstones should be powerful, but this still seems like a lot - this is a major warlock class feature (most of their improvements to spellcasting from 11th-20th), and you get to change your spells every day, AND you get permanent magic resistance?

Removed the magic resistance aspect, to better capture the increased spell ability described in the background.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Looks good, but I still think Arcane Supreme is too strong. Spell levels 7-9 are 'instant win buttons' and to get three if them a day is excessive. I'd suggest cutting the 8^th and 9^th level spells from this ability. Given that they can pick basically any spell, it's still a powerful ability that should be able to dominate one encounter and end another, but at least that's more in line with the other paladin capstones.

[AmbientRaven]

Looks good, but I still think Arcane Supreme is too strong. Spell levels 7-9 are 'instant win buttons' and to get three if them a day is excessive. I'd suggest cutting the 8^th and 9^th level spells from this ability. Given that they can pick basically any spell, it's still a powerful ability that should be able to dominate one encounter and end another, but at least that's more in line with the other paladin capstones.

I will drop the 9th and see how it goes in play testing. That leaves 9th level to full casters only still, but still opens up the feel I was going for with the capstone.

How does that sound?

[Arkhios]

I will drop the 9th and see how it goes in play testing. That leaves 9th level to full casters only still, but still opens up the feel I was going for with the capstone.

How does that sound?

I was recently looking at Arcane Domain for reference regarding other post, and having eyed through this thread, a minor tweak came up to my mind. Given that a paladin is technically a half-caster, it would be a bit odd if they got spells as high as 8th level. Arcane Domain Cleric gets spells from each level above 5th, unlike a Cleric of any other domain. A cleric is full-caster, so it's in my opinion fitting to look at Arcane Oath Paladin in the same light and only allow them up to 7th level spells.

While the Arcane Cleric gets his spells at 17th level, I think you should take into account that, as a caster, a Paladin is always half-way behind a Cleric. So if a Cleric gets 4 levels worth of spells, IMHO, it's only appropriate that a Paladin would get only 2 levels worth of spells (because 2 is half from 4).

[Ninja_Prawn]

I was recently looking at Arcane Domain for reference regarding other post, and having eyed through this thread, a minor tweak came up to my mind. Given that a paladin is technically a half-caster, it would be a bit odd if they got spells as high as 8th level. Arcane Domain Cleric gets spells from each level above 5th, unlike a Cleric of any other domain. A cleric is full-caster, so it's in my opinion fitting to look at Arcane Oath Paladin in the same light and only allow them up to 7th level spells.

While the Arcane Cleric gets his spells at 17th level, I think you should take into account that, as a caster, a Paladin is always half-way behind a Cleric. So if a Cleric gets 4 levels worth of spells, IMHO, it's only appropriate that a Paladin would get only 2 levels worth of spells (because 2 is half from 4).

It's the Arkhios and Ninja_Prawn ultimate PEACH tag team! They've got the skills, they've got the balance... can anyone stop them?

[Arkhios]

It's the Arkhios and Ninja_Prawn ultimate PEACH tag team! They've got the skills, they've got the balance... can anyone stop them?

High Five!

[Ninja_Prawn]

As an aside (or maybe I should say "back on topic"), I may be in a position to playtest this in the near future. Or at least, offer it to my players as a pre-approved option. We'll be starting at level 9 and I don't expect the game to go beyond 11 or 12, so I'm happy to approve it whether or not you change the capstone any further.

It'll be PbP, so you can follow along if you want!

[AmbientRaven]

As an aside (or maybe I should say "back on topic"), I may be in a position to playtest this in the near future. Or at least, offer it to my players as a pre-approved option. We'll be starting at level 9 and I don't expect the game to go beyond 11 or 12, so I'm happy to approve it whether or not you change the capstone any further.

It'll be PbP, so you can follow along if you want!

That would be great. A friend and i will be running a one shot soon as 20th level, so i will be play testing it then. And one of my regular games will see the Gm play test them around 8th level

I would love to see how it goes though, as I think for now I may leave in 8th level and play test it a bit.

[Oramac]

Just now seeing this! (conveniently, right after I posted my own Arcane Oath. Timing was never my thing)

I like it! You took a different direction than I did when making the Oath, so I feel like they could even be used at the same table.

[AmbientRaven]

Just now seeing this! (conveniently, right after I posted my own Arcane Oath. Timing was never my thing)

I like it! You took a different direction than I did when making the Oath, so I feel like they could even be used at the same table.

I would love to see it, do you have a link?

[Oramac]

I would love to see it, do you have a link?

Of course! :) It's the last one in the list here

[Amnoriath]

You have great flavor and ideas but overall it is a bit convoluted and more complicated than it needs to be. While you have a different take on a Paladin you really don't need to shy away from the base model to get what you want and far easier to remember.
Tenets: All good no complaints here

Spells: Decent, personally I would have found something else for Rary's Telepathic Bond but no issues.

Arcane Knowledge: Here is what I was talking about you have all these caveats to control its usage including a once per long rest restriction while giving it a free use. Paladins only get 1 channel divinity per rest. You can better eliminate the free use and just treat it like a new spell known for 1 minute. This way there is no worry in wasting it on a low level spell, high level spell abuse, and you can easily cut the text in half.

Spellshatter: Again too complicated, while it has cool flavor having to use a Channel Divinity and spell slots to get active use out it for a specified period time is just arbitray. The turn model can easily incorporate this idea except instead forcing a save you roll a charisma check.

Aura of Focus: This is quite limited while the bonus is nice it really doesn't benefit you all that much. So you incorporated a reverse element that seems to be a little antithetical to the name. Personally if you would have a caveat make it for yourself to the extent that any Paladin spell you are concentrating on can't be broken due to taking damage while others just get a standard advantage.

Cloak of Diffusion: A rather odd name, while its balanced it speaks to what I said before. Not only is it another pool but you didn't specify what spell level you use and it seems to apply to any kind of damage except for Poison, Weapon type, or Force damage unless it is from a spell. Personally I would have done something else but if you want to stick with this you could just give them resistance as a reaction to that type while changing your smite damage(both types) to align to that type if you wish.

Arcane Supreme: A different but good take, however giving a 20th level feature that full casters got 5 levels ago just seems a little underwhelming to me.

[Oramac]

I agree with Amnoriath on everything except this:

Arcane Supreme: A different but good take, however giving a 20th level feature that full casters got 5 levels ago just seems a little underwhelming to me.

Maybe it's just personal opinion, but this feels very powerful to me. Giving a half-caster access to higher level spell slots feels amazing, possibly even broken.

A Paladin with Disintegrate, True Seeing, Delayed Fireball, Dominate Monster, or several other spells they don't normally get would be scary indeed.

[Amnoriath]

I agree with Amnoriath on everything except this:



Maybe it's just personal opinion, but this feels very powerful to me. Giving a half-caster access to higher level spell slots feels amazing, possibly even broken.

A Paladin with Disintegrate, True Seeing, Delayed Fireball, Dominate Monster, or several other spells they don't normally get would be scary indeed.

I am not disregarding its power but I am merely stating that in the party dynamics which is where you determine whether something is broken it is underwhelming because others have had access to them for a long time and can even cast 6th and 7th level spells twice a day at that point. It isn't adding anything new or taking another take on something else so while effective it isn't unbalancing anything that hasn't already been introduced for a while.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I am not disregarding its power but I am merely stating that in the party dynamics which is where you determine whether something is broken it is underwhelming because others have had access to them for a long time and can even cast 6th and 7th level spells twice a day at that point. It isn't adding anything new or taking another take on something else so while effective it isn't unbalancing anything that hasn't already been introduced for a while.

I take it that when you say "underwhelming", you don't mean "underpowered"? At first glance it looked like that was what you meant (I was certainly going to jump in and argue before Oramac beat me to the punch), but now I'm wondering if you're arguing across purposes.

[Amnoriath]

I take it that when you say "underwhelming", you don't mean "underpowered"? At first glance it looked like that was what you meant (I was certainly going to jump in and argue before Oramac beat me to the punch), but now I'm wondering if you're arguing across purposes.

Correct, I am just saying it doesn't add anything that hasn't already been around, neither does it really give a fresh take to make it stand out.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Correct, I am just saying it doesn't add anything that hasn't already been around, neither does it really give a fresh take to make it stand out.

Yeah. Personally, I don't think that's a major problem, especially because it only applies on a party scale, which means that in some party compositions, it's not even true [that it doesn't add anything]. In others, it could create unique tactical options or improve flexibility (especially because, as written, it applies the paladin's spell preparation rules). And it's such a powerful feature that I think players would be drawn towards it, even if it isn't "fresh".

[Oramac]

Correct, I am just saying it doesn't add anything that hasn't already been around, neither does it really give a fresh take to make it stand out.

My mistake. Sorry for that.

Yeah. Personally, I don't think that's a major problem, especially because it only applies on a party scale, which means that in some party compositions, it's not even true [that it doesn't add anything]. In others, it could create unique tactical options or improve flexibility (especially because, as written, it applies the paladin's spell preparation rules). And it's such a powerful feature that I think players would be drawn towards it, even if it isn't "fresh".

I would generally agree with this.