Bladesinger with 1 lvl dip in Barbarian?

[FartHeartMaGart]

Am I missing something, or is playing a bladesinger with 1 level into barbarian for their Unarmored Defense not amazing?? Youre 1 level behind as a caster and a potential +5 AC.
I made an eladrin bladesinger with incredible rolls, 18s for Int, Dex, and Con, 14 Str
Hes a 4th level caster with melee options and broken armor class of
10+ 4(dex)+ 4(con)+ 4(Int)+ 3(mage armor) = 25 AC!
Oh, and lop Shield on for another +5

[GlenSmash!]

As far as I know this works just fine since bladesong adds the Int bonus to AC and does not recalculate AC it does not interfere with unarmoured defense.

[RickAllison]

Am I missing something, or is playing a bladesinger with 1 level into barbarian for their Unarmored Defense not amazing?? Youre 1 level behind as a caster and a potential +5 AC.
I made an eladrin bladesinger with incredible rolls, 18s for Int, Dex, and Con, 14 Str
Hes a 4th level caster with melee options and broken armor class of
10+ 4(dex)+ 4(con)+ 4(Int)+ 3(mage armor) = 25 AC!
Oh, and lop Shield on for another +5

It's a great possibility if you have the stats for it, but let's put it in terms of point-buy so it is more appicable to normal games. Let's say gnome so you get +2 Int and +1 Dex. With 15s in Con, Int, and Dex, you end up with 16 Dex, 15 Con, and 17 Int. 1.5 ASI to get 20 Int, 2 to get 20 Dex, leaving a Con of 18. You can't use a shield and get the benefits of Bladesong, so you end up with a character with an AC just over what's possible with Mage Armor and you sacrifice your 20th level feature to do it. You do get Rage, but you have to sacrifice on your three AC scores to make use of it. The build is far too MAD for it to be as good as you hope when you don't roll your borderline impossible scores.

Basically, it's great for you because of your rolls. It is far, far less useful for normal scores. It can seem great to dip into many odd combinations of classes, but many of those have varying abilities that make he build not function as intended.

[Sigreid]

Yes, it would work. But the key with all M/C is the question of is what you are trading worth what you are getting. In this case i don't think the moderate potential increase in AC, even if you rolled awesome, is worth a level of casting and delaying your bladesinger special powers.

[RickAllison]

Yes, it would work. But the key with all M/C is the question of is what you are trading worth what you are getting. In this case i don't think the moderate potential increase in AC, even if you rolled awesome, is worth a level of casting and delaying your bladesinger special powers.

An alternate option could be a level of Monk. Same bonus to AC, but you also get a bonus action attack that at least synergizes with Song of Victory and that doesn't require you to give up concentration and the ability to cast spells to take advantage of it.

[Sigreid]

An alternate option could be a level of Monk. Same bonus to AC, but you also get a bonus action attack that at least synergizes with Song of Victory and that doesn't require you to give up concentration and the ability to cast spells to take advantage of it.

IMO Monk would be a better synergy, yes. I personally still wouldn't do it. IMO caster primary characters suffer more from multi-classing than primary martial classes.

[Noble_berserker]

Did they change the wording in mage armor? If they did not, mage armor would not work with unarmored defence.

[RickAllison]

Did they change the wording in mage armor? If they did not, mage armor would not work with unarmored defence.

They didn't, Mage Armor and UD are incompatible.

EDIT: Good catch, I didn't even notice that he had done that. For some reason, I had thought he was talking after ASIs so +5+5+5 (Con+Dex+Int)

[FartHeartMaGart]

An alternate option could be a level of Monk. Same bonus to AC, but you also get a bonus action attack that at least synergizes with Song of Victory and that doesn't require you to give up concentration and the ability to cast spells to take advantage of it.

That is actually a very good alternative, great idea.

[FartHeartMaGart]

IMO Monk would be a better synergy, yes. I personally still wouldn't do it. IMO caster primary characters suffer more from multi-classing than primary martial classes.

Id agree, but the character I rolled has great stats and its hard not to see if I can squeeze some unkillable-ness out of a wizard

[Sigreid]

Id agree, but the character I rolled has great stats and its hard not to see if I can squeeze some unkillable-ness out of a wizard

Well, bladesinger gets light armor proficiency. Get some magic armor and you'll top what you swing with barbarian but without waste.

I understand the temptation. I have a wizard with great stats myself. Decided no multi was worth it still. Can't really go too wrong though.

[Noble_berserker]

If college of swords bard is allowed you could get extra AC through bardic inspiration without losing slots. http://media.wizards.com/2015/downlo..._Revisited.pdf

[Sigreid]

If college of swords bard is allowed you could get extra AC through bardic inspiration without losing slots. http://media.wizards.com/2015/downlo..._Revisited.pdf

Unfortunately that puts you at least 3 levels behind the wizard spell curve. Even the best kinetic adventuring wizard has most of his power in his spell list.

[RickAllison]

Well, bladesinger gets light armor proficiency. Get some magic armor and you'll top what you swing with barbarian but without waste.

I understand the temptation. I have a wizard with great stats myself. Decided no multi was worth it still. Can't really go too wrong though.

Well, technically he can only match the 20 Dex/20 Wis AC if he gets +3 Studded Leather, which is Legendary rarity and he has to fight with Rogues, Druids, and other light armor users for.

[Noble_berserker]

3 levels of bard gives you six spells known and normal spell slot progression. Just make sure you get a wizard level in time for fireball. Bardic spells are not that bad. 3 levels of wizard would give you 6 spells as well(if we exclude the first)

[RickAllison]

3 levels of bard gives you six spells known and normal spell slot progression. Just make sure you get a wizard level in time for fireball. Bardic spells are not that bad. 3 levels of wizard would give you 6 spells as well(if we exclude the first)

Yes, but that means that every other feature is delayed by three levels. The super-fun 9th level spells, which are hard enough to get to at level 17 or 18, now only became available at 20. Basically, you sacrifice long-term relative power for short term gains.

[Noble_berserker]

Yes, but that means that every other feature is delayed by three levels. The super-fun 9th level spells, which are hard enough to get to at level 17 or 18, now only became available at 20. Basically, you sacrifice long-term relative power for short term gains.

That's not true, when you multiclass your spell slots' level adds up. You use the multiclass slot table. Nothing stops you from learning 9th level spells at Character level 17.

[RickAllison]

That's not true, when you multiclass your spell slots level adds up. You use the multiclass slot table. Nothing stops you from learning 9th level spells at Character level 17.

You select and prepare spells as a single-classed adventurer. You get 9th level slots but no 9th level spells. It's in the PHB, on the same page that has the proficiencies gained when MCing.

[Noble_berserker]

You select and prepare spells as a single-classed adventurer. You get 9th level slots but no 9th level spells. It's in the PHB, on the same page that has the proficiencies gained when MCing.

Edit: Nevermind, I did some research, you are correct.

[RickAllison]

It clearly states on the wizard page that the wizard can prepare spells of a level for which he has spell slots (114 phb)
Even if you view each class individually you have spell slots therefore you can learn and prepare spells for that level. In the MCing example the wizard has only access to level 2 spells because of the ranger's progression.

And we have this argument again because some people refuse/are too lazy to read the damn text. EDIT: I'm glad you did some reading.

You determine
what spells you know and can prepare for each class
individually, as if you were a single-classed member of
that class....

If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table
might give you spell slots o f a level that is higher than
the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those
slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lowerlevel
spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an
enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you
can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have
any spells o f that higher level.

For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/
wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when
determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level
slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots.
However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you
know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell
slots o f those levels to cast the spells you do know—and
potentially enhance their effects.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that when they use Wizard as a specific example of how it limits the spells known to the levels when single-classed, it is RAW and RAI. If you are Wizard 14/Bard 3, you can know and prepare spells as a 14th level Wizard (who only has slots up to 7th level), not as a 17th level spellcaster.

[soldersbushwack]

You can't stack Mage Armor with the Barbarian defense thing. Also you might want to use Haste and the Dual Wielder feat.

So that's 13(Mage Armor) + 4(Dex) + 4(Int) + 1(Dual Wielder) + 2(Haste) + 5(Shield) = 29 AC versus
10 + 4(Con) + 4(Dex) + 4(Int) + 1(Dual Wielder) +2(Haste) + 5(Shield) = 30 AC which isn't that much of a difference.

[Foxhound438]

Oh, and lop Shield on for another +5

costs spells. Not great, but good. Honestly what makes you broken is rolled stats.

in point buy you could have two +3's and a +2, or if you're a half-elf you can dump 3 stats and have 3 +3's. So 19 with song.

[Foxhound438]

An alternate option could be a level of Monk. Same bonus to AC, but you also get a bonus action attack that at least synergizes with Song of Victory and that doesn't require you to give up concentration and the ability to cast spells to take advantage of it.

not really as good, bacause then you need dex, con for hp+concentration, wis for ac and int for casting. Barb 1 you only require dex, con, and int.

[RickAllison]

not really as good, bacause then you need dex, con for hp+concentration, wis for ac and int for casting. Barb 1 you only require dex, con, and int.

He has the scores that he can actually take being MAD. The issue with Barbarian is that while Unarmored Defense is still great. nothing else from the class works well with a Bladesinger. The entire idea behind the sub-class is the nature of being a spellcasting swords(wo)man and trying to take advantage of the primary benefit of Barbarian precludes that. In contrast, Monk gives a consistent bonus action attack that gives an excellent damage boost early on while still permitting spell-casting (as unlike TWF, you can always keep a free hand) and it remains relevant later on when he gets the level 14 ability that then boosts his Martial Arts attack even more.

Barbarian gives more survivability, Monk gives more damage and versatility. If he wants to Attack action, Monk 1 gives him a 7.5 DPR boost that rises to 12.5 DPR at level 15. If he wants to use the SCAG cantrips or has some other consistent use for his bonus action, then Barbarian might be a better option. The issue is not nearly so cut-and-dried as you think it to be.

This isn't even taking into account skills. The significant boost to his Perception and Insight checks could be what saves him from needing to use the extra HP from Barbarian because he is able to perceive threats before they occur. It also offers up more options for Magic Initiate as he can then raid the Druid and Cleric spell-lists.

[ravenkith]

Actually, the OP is right.

A Barbarian dip is fantastic (assuming you have the stats), especially if you are playing from level 1 and moving into Bladesinger.

A key point is that, if you take your first level in barbarian, you get the full HD of a barbarian.

You get light & medium armor, shields, and all martial and simple weapons.

You get proficiency in CON saves.

You also get the ability to rage. Rage is pretty damn nice for those situations where you are just flat out of spells, as it allows you to take half damage from all mundane weapon attacks. That would be considered beefy on a tank, but possibly a real life saver on a wizard's squishy hit dice. Raging can be considered as effectively doubling your hit points, if you do it right. On top of that, it adds to weapon damage.

At low levels especially, this enhances your odds of survival by an incredible amount, as you are effectively getting up to 4 times as many base hit points as you would otherwise have. (12 vs 6, doubled, not counting con mod).

Once you add the first ability of bladesinger to this mix, depending on stats, you are in a position to hit 10 +5 CON +5 DEX + 5 INT (25) AC, without using spells. Adding shield to the mix can get you to hit 30 on an as needed basis, but by far the best defensive spell to use with this combo is actually mirror image. On the other hand, if your stats aren't maxed out, then when you find an awesome magic light or medium armor, there are no class features that stop you from taking full advantage of it (unlike Monk).

Between your AC and your mirror images, you are effectively impervious to harm from weapons and target-based spells, as anything that rolls to hit you is looking at some tough DCs. Only save-based spells and area of effects remain as truly credible threats - and with your CON save proficiency, as well as your high DEX, you should be in a good situation to deal with pretty much anything except will saves.

Taking Mage Slayer for the advantage on saves vs spells cast within 5 feet of you and Lucky for the emergency rerolls enhances how hard it is to tag you further, and then of course, there's still resilient for Will and Reflex saves, if you must.

Keep in mind that mirror image isn't even concentration here, so you also have your pick of buffs as you level.

[PoeticDwarf]

Am I missing something, or is playing a bladesinger with 1 level into barbarian for their Unarmored Defense not amazing?? Youre 1 level behind as a caster and a potential +5 AC.
I made an eladrin bladesinger with incredible rolls, 18s for Int, Dex, and Con, 14 Str
Hes a 4th level caster with melee options and broken armor class of
10+ 4(dex)+ 4(con)+ 4(Int)+ 3(mage armor) = 25 AC!
Oh, and lop Shield on for another +5

Mage armor and unarmored defense do not work together. It gives you 3 slots and 1AC with good stats basicly

[wunderkid]

It is an amazing combo if you get those 3 18s which as I've mentioned in another thread is a 0.01% chance, or in other words 1 character out of every 10,000 rolled will be able to make use of this particular combo.

Everyone else just sticks with mage armor.

[ravenkith]

It is an amazing combo if you get those 3 18s which as I've mentioned in another thread is a 0.01% chance, or in other words 1 character out of every 10,000 rolled will be able to make use of this particular combo.

Everyone else just sticks with mage armor.

It physically pains me to think of anyone actually using mage armor as their primary AC source.

AC, more than ever, is your primary line of defense. Neglecting it is, in my opinion, extremely bad policy.

Mage armor as primary ac source is not just neglecting it, but crippling it. It's bad, bad, bad.

Not only does it cap out at 18 (with a 20 dex, mind, most likely you'll probably cap out at 18 or 16 dex as it's not your primary), it also uses 1st level spells for very little benefit. (Note: at 1st level, you're using half your spells to give you the light armor feat, or something you get for free with literally every other class except monk and sorceror).

If it were a cantrip, then yes, it would be a no-brainer, but as things stand, it's a really bad option.

Keep in mind that at this point, mage armor is fixed and static. While proficiency bonuses and stat modifiers increase over the course of 20 levels, and weapons gain bonuses to hit, Mage armor doesn't improve not one bit. Let's say you've got a 16 dex: that's a 16 AC.

Meanwhile, the enemy builds up a +6 Proficiency + 5 stat mod (primary), + 3 magic item bonus = + 14 to hit. A properly built hitter will hit your AC on a 3 or better, or put another way, 85% of the time (An 18 AC only improves that ratio to 75%).

You're WAY better off taking a one level dip to get access to heavy armor and shields, as those cap out at 20 AC without magic items, and 26 with (meaning the theoretical beatstick needs to roll a 13 to get you). These AC numbers mean that your opponent will miss you more often than not.

Note that the CR 1 Animals tend to get roughly a +5 to hit: versus a 16 AC he will only need an 11 on the dice to hit you. CR1! It only gets worse from there.

I know that people will cry about capstone abilities or slowed spell casting progression - in preemptive response to that, I say this:

1. Capstone abilities and the time you spend being able to use them is a tiny fraction of your adventuring career that most people never see anyway.

2. One level's delay in getting access to spells is negligible. (Please don't argue: delayed spell access doesn't actually affect your saves anymore: it just changes which spells you have access TO - your level 2 spells will be saved against at the exact same rate as your level 3 spells, unlike in 3.5, and the benefits, in many cases, can outweigh the costs).

3. It doesn't matter if you get level 3 spells at level 5 or level 6 if you don't make it out of level 1.

[wunderkid]

Sooo. What about rogues? Their AC will generally be around the 16 mark.

Even taking armor you're at 16 with chainmail. Vs 16 with mage armor.

When you reach plate. Which may not even be by level 5/6 armour starts to edge ahead.

But unless you're planning on having everyone sword and board and ignoring all character flavour you use the tools your class gives you.

The lesser AC is mitigated by being a caster who is ranged. And has spells like shield for the rare time the enemy slips past your front line.

Dropping a caster level is a big deal when its your primary source of everything you do.

Personally I almost always dip 2 into fighter for armour and action surge. But I'm simply arguing the point it's not necessary.

[RickAllison]

I've actually been mulling over this question of AC for a wizard grappler (minotaur artificer). A level of fighter or cleric gives great armor that allows for a lesser dexterity, but he needed Expertise to be better for grappling. I am thinking I will instead have him grab a level of Rogue and take Moderately Armored. With 14 Dex, that gives him an AC of 18 or 19 before any magic items (and as an artificer, he could himself get that up to 23 for a heavy cost).