Dealing with deity level NPC's

[Geddy2112]

Hello all,

I am currently playing in a Pathfinder game where certain NPC's are for all purposes, deities who walk among mortals. The setting is high fantasy, multiple deities who are very real and corresponding alternate planes of existence, but one NPC in particular is as powerful, or possibly more powerful, than a deity.

They are not a DMPC, as they don't follow the party around, or work with them, or give them advice. However, one of the player characters made a deal with this person early on and now we are stuck with them. Because this NPC is an utterly horrible person(or whatever he/it is), binding soul breaking hidden gotcha contract, and now this NPC shows up frequently. They could kill us all in an instant, so the party lives in terror of said NPC deity.

Nothing we can do even remotely challenges this person. The NPC is totally omniscient as best we can tell, and can, as far as we know, reshape reality as they see fit. The highest level kings/warlords we have consulted live in abject terror of this...thing, and we as players can do absolutely nothing except feed into their whims, be killed, or live in fear of being manipulated ad nauseaum.

So what do you do in this case? A deity, or something as powerful as one, has marked a low/mid level party to eternal damnation. At first, it was just the party member who made the deal, but it is starting to bleed over. Is there anything we can do? Do you have any experience dealing with a deity among mortals who is completely and utterly unstoppable? Would you even play in this kind of game? I ask because the game is starting to seem hopeless. Nothing we do will matter, we are just pawns in some NPC scheme.

[ellindsey]

Find a better GM. There's really nothing you can do in-game when a GM has decided to pull this kind of crap.

[Esprit15]

Ask the DM OOC whether this has any bearing on the plot. Let him know that right now it feels like him pushing the party around because he can.

Or get the help of a proper deity. Or one of the other powerful NPCs.

[Mordar]

Any chance it is a major plot set-up? What's your level of faith in the GM?

Often enough in other media we see the annoying-powerful-hyper competent "side character" who eventually gets their comeuppance later in the story - or triggers a significant plot element - that is supposed to pay off the annoyance. Think Q from ST:TNG for instance. The problem is...it is easily off-putting when done perfectly, and many GMs couldn't do it perfectly.

[Trampaige]

Only way I can see that not sucking is for the party to find some mystical artifact or something that renders them immune to his omniscient scrying, and godlike powers... So he has to track them the old fashioned way.

No, it would still suck.

[goto124]

Ask the DM OOC whether this has any bearing on the plot. Let him know that right now it feels like him pushing the party around because he can.

To be honest, the diety* NPCs sounds like something that's meant to take an entire plotline to resolve. Ask the DM what's supposed to happen with the NPCs.

* I'm keeping my typo.

[RazorChain]

If you can't defeat him....then join him I guess. At least until the time is ripe and you have plotted his demise.

[TheCountAlucard]

For the record, few deities are omnipotent. This guy is no Thor, it sounds like.

[Slipperychicken]

Find a better GM. There's really nothing you can do in-game when a GM has decided to pull this kind of crap.

Seconding this. Overuse of high-powered NPCs is classic mark of a terrible GM. You might as well bail now.


Also, it's an OOC problem (your GM being bad, that is). You're not going to solve it IC, and trying to do that will not accomplish anything other than wasting your free time. I've been in games like this one, and I can tell you that the winning move here is to not play with the GM. Even if you don't think you can find another group, remember that not playing at all is better than playing in a bad game. If there are any people in the group who you respect or want to keep being friends with, see if you can't take them with you.

[Ikitavi]

I have encountered that type of GMing before, and I know the type of player shenanigans that preceded it.

See, when you have players who kill all the quest NPCs, or kill all the shopkeepers that have interesting toys, the GMs often get frustrated. They don't want the NPCs that they have actually given some thought into to be casually butchered by the players, and they also don't want to create tactics and escapes for every NPC to use either.

In my campaign, I have a couple of clearly powerful NPCs who have very good reasons why they can't do the adventure themselves. One is a former necromancer who gave his magical parole not to leave his sanctuary monastery. How powerful he is is hard to determine as he is a wizard who works in a library; he has hidden magical scrolls all over the place. I suppose there is the danger that the players MIGHT try to off the guy and loot the monastery, but I feel comfortable that the players aren't the sort that would find that to be a fun thing to do. And I WOULD ret-con things to have every fire trap, glyph, sepia snake sigil, illusionary script and other trick if it turned out that I misjudged. I would simply declare that my NPC is more paranoid than I am, and interrupt the scene for long enough to paint the dungeon ahead of the players.

In a campaign that I am a player in, one of the languages my player speaks is Draconic. In roleplaying terms, he read some books on how to speak to dragons. Not just the language, but the attitude. Flattery, respect, and looking for any handle to make sure the dragon isn't one to micromangle affairs. If I encounter a powerful NPC I tell the GM, "I am speaking with my talking-to-dragons tone and body language."

Basically, convey to the GM that you will respect their NPCs and that you as a player want those NPCs to stay out or the adventure simply won't be interesting, it would just be a matter of trying to figure out how to use the NPCs as a club to solve everything.

[RazorChain]

I have encountered that type of GMing before, and I know the type of player shenanigans that preceded it.

See, when you have players who kill all the quest NPCs, or kill all the shopkeepers that have interesting toys, the GMs often get frustrated. They don't want the NPCs that they have actually given some thought into to be casually butchered by the players, and they also don't want to create tactics and escapes for every NPC to use either.

In my campaign, I have a couple of clearly powerful NPCs who have very good reasons why they can't do the adventure themselves. One is a former necromancer who gave his magical parole not to leave his sanctuary monastery. How powerful he is is hard to determine as he is a wizard who works in a library; he has hidden magical scrolls all over the place. I suppose there is the danger that the players MIGHT try to off the guy and loot the monastery, but I feel comfortable that the players aren't the sort that would find that to be a fun thing to do. And I WOULD ret-con things to have every fire trap, glyph, sepia snake sigil, illusionary script and other trick if it turned out that I misjudged. I would simply declare that my NPC is more paranoid than I am, and interrupt the scene for long enough to paint the dungeon ahead of the players.

In a campaign that I am a player in, one of the languages my player speaks is Draconic. In roleplaying terms, he read some books on how to speak to dragons. Not just the language, but the attitude. Flattery, respect, and looking for any handle to make sure the dragon isn't one to micromangle affairs. If I encounter a powerful NPC I tell the GM, "I am speaking with my talking-to-dragons tone and body language."

Basically, convey to the GM that you will respect their NPCs and that you as a player want those NPCs to stay out or the adventure simply won't be interesting, it would just be a matter of trying to figure out how to use the NPCs as a club to solve everything.

If the players are killing off all npc's then the solution isn't uber powerful npc's. The solution is consequences. Murder hoboism attracts the law and we all know how that song goes: "I fought the law and the law won".

[Geddy2112]

Thanks for the replies!

@ the GM is bad for having a hammer NPC. I have played with this guy when he has been DM, as a fellow player, and he has played with me as GM for about 4 years now. And he is prone to having a REALLY powerful handful of NPC's running around. Most of them are lurking in the shadows/beings of myth and legend type. They exist, but they don't deal with the party very often if ever, and the chance we will even find them before high level or the end of the campaign is rare. This guy has been pulling deity level stuff since the first session.

@ major plot point/big reveal. I talked with the DM, and it confirmed my suspicions that he is tied into, or is, one of the major story arcs of the world. And the DM insists this guy can be beaten, perhaps not in the sense that a mortal can die, but something can be done. He wanted to create the impression that things are going bad when a demigod is going rampant, I just think he went a bit far. I asked him to dial it back to a "nearly impossible but great heroics can defeat" from the "Lovecraftian nihilism nothing mere mortals can do" setting he was running it on and he agreed.

I have encountered that type of GMing before, and I know the type of player shenanigans that preceded it.

See, when you have players who kill all the quest NPCs, or kill all the shopkeepers that have interesting toys, the GMs often get frustrated. They don't want the NPCs that they have actually given some thought into to be casually butchered by the players, and they also don't want to create tactics and escapes for every NPC to use either.

In my campaign, I have a couple of clearly powerful NPCs who have very good reasons why they can't do the adventure themselves. One is a former necromancer who gave his magical parole not to leave his sanctuary monastery. How powerful he is is hard to determine as he is a wizard who works in a library; he has hidden magical scrolls all over the place. I suppose there is the danger that the players MIGHT try to off the guy and loot the monastery, but I feel comfortable that the players aren't the sort that would find that to be a fun thing to do. And I WOULD ret-con things to have every fire trap, glyph, sepia snake sigil, illusionary script and other trick if it turned out that I misjudged. I would simply declare that my NPC is more paranoid than I am, and interrupt the scene for long enough to paint the dungeon ahead of the players.

Basically, convey to the GM that you will respect their NPCs and that you as a player want those NPCs to stay out or the adventure simply won't be interesting, it would just be a matter of trying to figure out how to use the NPCs as a club to solve everything.

This has never really been a problem in our group. And clearly powerful NPC's are fine and to be expected. There are plenty of NPC's in this world that are far more powerful than the party, and nobody has a problem there. The problem is that all of those powerful heroes, leaders, legends, wizards, warlords, powerful sapient monsters, etc. of this world combined would not hold a candle to this dude. They ALL know who he is, and each one lives in abject fear of this person(at least the ones we have met). He could unmake them in an instant powerful. Legends, heroes, dragons, lich lords, etc might be really powerful, but they can be theoretically killed. This guy is on the actual level of a deity.

[Coidzor]

Social engineering is the key. Find the GM's levers and pull them.

It could be as simple as several of you saying "Dude, we're all really tired of this boring NPC, make with the climax or let's move on to another game."

[EvilestWeevil]

Stick it out and see how things go, nothing is unbeatable. But more to the point, try talking to the DM and vent those frustrations. You can just ask him straight up, "Do you plan on us defeating this thing, or could said deity fade into the background a bit because we as players are annoyed". Ideally, the DM is your friend and he will take ques from his players and their wants.

[Velaryon]

At this point, I would assume the godlike NPC is your eventual BBEG, even if the story doesn't otherwise indicate it. Time to start looking for weaknesses to exploit, and do your best to keep it quiet. If the NPC really is omniscient and knows what you're doing, you can always try to convince him you're looking out for him and trying to make sure the contract is filled.

[Zman]

Find the other Diety level NPCs, make a better deal. Worst case he shows up and kills you for trying, then you make new characters and find a new DM.

[Esprit15]

Well, glad that talking helped things out.

[Malifice]

I have encountered that type of GMing before, and I know the type of player shenanigans that preceded it.

See, when you have players who kill all the quest NPCs, or kill all the shopkeepers that have interesting toys, the GMs often get frustrated. They don't want the NPCs that they have actually given some thought into to be casually butchered by the players, and they also don't want to create tactics and escapes for every NPC to use either.

In my campaign, I have a couple of clearly powerful NPCs who have very good reasons why they can't do the adventure themselves. One is a former necromancer who gave his magical parole not to leave his sanctuary monastery. How powerful he is is hard to determine as he is a wizard who works in a library; he has hidden magical scrolls all over the place. I suppose there is the danger that the players MIGHT try to off the guy and loot the monastery, but I feel comfortable that the players aren't the sort that would find that to be a fun thing to do. And I WOULD ret-con things to have every fire trap, glyph, sepia snake sigil, illusionary script and other trick if it turned out that I misjudged. I would simply declare that my NPC is more paranoid than I am, and interrupt the scene for long enough to paint the dungeon ahead of the players.

In a campaign that I am a player in, one of the languages my player speaks is Draconic. In roleplaying terms, he read some books on how to speak to dragons. Not just the language, but the attitude. Flattery, respect, and looking for any handle to make sure the dragon isn't one to micromangle affairs. If I encounter a powerful NPC I tell the GM, "I am speaking with my talking-to-dragons tone and body language."

Basically, convey to the GM that you will respect their NPCs and that you as a player want those NPCs to stay out or the adventure simply won't be interesting, it would just be a matter of trying to figure out how to use the NPCs as a club to solve everything.

This is terrible advice mate.

Who has PCs murdering NPC shopkeepers and employers?

What kind of CE sociopaths are they? What kind of DM lets that happen with no in game consequences?

Unless the whole party are actively portraying themselves as deranged insane monsters (who apparently have no issues hanging out with other deranged murderous monsters who kill people for the slightest insult, or even no reason at all) then its bad characterisation, terrible roleplaying and a breach of the social contract of the game.

That kind of stuff is best resolved with a chat with the players that such behavior is utterly unbelievable in the extreme. Play properly or play elsewhere.

You dont need 'uber NPCs' to sort that kind of stuff out. You just need to be more mature than a 10 year old.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

we all know how that song goes: "I fought the law and the law won".

I thought it was "I shot the sheriff", "band on the run" or in a pinch "jailhouse rock".