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    Default [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass - Updated 8/2/16

    Due to a wonderful idea posted in another thread, Ive decided to flesh out my version of the Dragoon idea. This post is merely to add this to my sig, but feel free to peruse and leave imput. as you can see from my other class/subclass attempts, I need all the help i can get! Without Further ado, I give you......:


    FIGHTER MARTIAL ARCHETYPE - THE DRAGOON

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    The Archetypal Dragoon is a Fighter who, through the course of many adventures, has come face to face with one of the great primal beings of our living world: a Dragon. Every fighters' reaction to this moment is different, but for some fighters, the way a Dragon fights, swooping in to attack and quickly begone, their size belying their swiftness and grace in the air, have taught them to emulate these beasts in their own human way. Whether to gain an advantage by being able to attack an enemy from above, or learning the incredible jumping abilities of a Dragoon to meet a soaring Dragon face to face in the sky, a Dragoon is a Dragon Slayer that brings the fight to the Dragon, instead of standing their ground on the firmament below.

    Dragoons train thier bodies with extreme strengthening exercises and harsh training, but a Dragoon is not a Dragoon until they receive thier Glyph - an ancient Draconic Word of Power etched onto their bodies in Dragon's Blood. Whether freely given by a 'benevolent' dragon, engraved on their body by a Dragoon Mentor, or awarded by a divine hand after a legendary event, the Glyph grants the Dragoon access to simple yet potent magic that allows them to utilize their physical prowess to sail to the skies for brief moments. This, and other gifts granteed as the Glyph matures, creates the Dragoon: an armored wonder of incredible versatility and power.



    Glyph Jump (Level 3)
    Upon receiving your glyph, you gain access to the first ability that separates you from conventional warriors and places you upon the path to your Legacy: Glyph Jump. At 3rd Level, you may give up one attack per turn to make a standing high jump to a height equal to your strength score + 3 in feet. Doing so allows you to choose a square within a 10 ft radius of your current position to land in, back on the ground. If you, instead, perform a long jump, you will travel a distance of your strength score + 3 in feet from a standing position. You may channel your falling damage to either a creature or into the ground, taking no falling damage while under the effects of glyph jumping. If you land within 10 ft of an enemy that is size Large or smaller while wielding a weapon with the reach property, that creature must succeed on a CON saving throw against a DC composed of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your STR bonus, or be knocked prone, taking all damage you would normally take when falling (1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 ft of distance fallen). If the creature is size Gargantuan, it cannot be knocked prone, and is subject to the damage conditions of this ability only. If the creature succeeds on his CON saving throw, it takes half the total damage and is not knocked prone. You may add your melee weapon damage to damage done by this ability if you sacrifice a second attack or an action surge to this ability, when you first declare the attack. At 7th level, the height of the standing jump of this ability is equal to your strength score + 10. At 15th level, the height of the standing jump of this ability is equal to your strength score + 20. You may not use this ability if you have moved during this turn, and once this ability is used, your Movement is considered used for this turn, even if you have not moved. You may only use this ability once per turn.


    Elusive Jump (Level 7)
    Your instincts for combat sharpen to near preternatural levels, allowing you to use your glyph jump maneuver to evade combat strikes. When an enemy succeeds in making an attack roll against you, you may use your reaction to make a DEX saving throw, with the enemy's natural attack roll as the DC for your saving throw. If successful, you take no damage from the attack and are able to leap up to 15ft in any direction. You must end your movement in an unoccupied square. Movement in this manner does not cause attacks of opportunity from nearby enemies.


    Weird of the Wyrm (Level 10)
    To understand a foe is to know a foe, and you have begun, through the dragon blood that flows through your glyph, to understand the Dragons' movements and screams. At 10th Level, you gain the ability to read and speak the Draconic language. You also gain the ability to instinctively strike a Dragon in such a way as to force even the largest Wyrm to the ground. If an enemy you have targeted with glyph jump is a Dragon or of Draconic descent, you gain a bonus to Glyph Jump's DC that equals your WIS modifier against that creature.. It will also be knocked prone if it fails it's CON saving throw, even if it is sized Gargantuan. A Dragon or Draconic blooded enemy may also be targeted by glyph jump while that enemy is in flight, as long as the jump can reach its height.

    Elemental Essence (Level 15)
    You have learned the inner secrets of your glyph and its connection to the essence of the dragon who's blood was drawn for its making. You gain a semblance of his elemental abilities that you may use during some of your attacks. At 15th Level, choose an elemental damage type. This damage type may be drawn on to strengthen your combat prowess. Add 2d6 damage of the elemental type chosen to all attacks until the end of your next turn OR until you attack using the Glyph Jump feature. If used as part of the Glyph Jump feature, the elemental damage becomes 6d6 and affects all creatures within a 15ft radius. The Essence is expended at the end of your next turn or once you have used Glyph Jump. You may use this ability twice between long rests.

    Ancestral Roar (Level 18)
    You tap into the primal energies that are released when a Dragon roars, gaining the ability to tap into the primal fear all creatures instinctively hold toward this Apex Predator. You may use your Action to mimic an adult dragon's full Roar. Any enemy within 30 ft of you must make a CON saving throw vs 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your CHA modifier as the DC. Any enemy that fails the saving throw is frightened for 5 turns. Each enemy affected will be able to attempt another CON saving throw at the beginning of each turn. If they succeed on their Saving Throw, the effect ends. This ability may be used twice per short rest.


    EDIT: Annnnd done!.....for now. Added the flavor text for the Archetype itself, but not exactly in love with that paragraph, so it may change. Also added a horizontal ruling to Glyph Jumping as well, to give a bit of movement utility to it at the cost of an attack. Was thinking of adding a little more to elusive jump as well, but haven't decided to do it yet. Still, everything is up for first draft order and, hopefully, a few comments from the community. I appreciate the feedback!

    UPDATE (8/2/16): Update's complete. I've edited the accepted suggestions into the build, and adjusted language to reflect the new changes. Thanks for the continued assistance to everyone who helped with this, and cant wait for more feedback!
    Last edited by Grayfigure; 2016-08-02 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Edited in all accepted advice into the Front Page build.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Hi! I think your build is very nice from what I've read so far. How does armor affect jumping? I assume it's all magically based, but heavy armor and athletics don't mix very well, especially if Dexterity is involved.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by ravencroft0 View Post
    Hi! I think your build is very nice from what I've read so far. How does armor affect jumping? I assume it's all magically based, but heavy armor and athletics don't mix very well, especially if Dexterity is involved.
    It doesn't. Armor in 5e only affects Stealth checks if it affects anything at all. It might not be the most realistic thing in the world, but generally a subclass isn't attempting to rewrite RAW.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    (snip) STR saving throw against a DC composed of 10 + your proficiency bonus + 1/2 your Class level, (snip)
    this save dc math makes no sense. It should follow the DC math formula for everything else in 5e, as in 8+prof+one stat mod. The way you have it now it would break bounded accuracy at later levels (being of DC above 20 without any magic items or bonuses).

    If the idea is to make it so the big dragons would fail the save occasionally, give them specifically a penalty on the save rather than make it literally impossible for most things to make.
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    I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet

    "What are you smiling about?" it says

    "hehe, it looks like you've made... a grave mistake :D"

    the bard, actively bleeding out on the ground *ba-dum-tss*

    "Ha! Nice try. Telling a bad joke to try to make your opponent drop their guard. Oldest trick in the book. Trust me, I was there."

    *barbarian falling, sword in hands, from the top of the castle wall directly above the lich*


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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Hi all! Thanks for the replies to this. To answer some questions:

    ravencroft0:
    Thanks! This build came after a bit of trial and error in archetype building and great inspiration in a couple of other threads about Dragooning. With the Heavier Armor, its as Rhaegar14 said: weight of armor in 5e only adds on a Disadvantage to your rolls if youre overburdened. In most other cases, it doesn't seem to come in to play outside of carrying situations. Its also why I left the explanation of the Glyph Magic slightly vague. This way, the mechanics say you'll be able to do it with any armor, due to magic, and the player is free to provide an ingame explanation...if they want, heh.

    Rhaegar14:
    Thanks for the reply. Glad to see some are reading this build!

    Foxhound48:
    You see truly, my friend. I noticed at later levels that monster ability scores can scale to 30, giving them higher saving throw bonuses than players will be capable of without magic equipment. Figuring that into the equation, I wanted to build a scaling DC check for Glyph Jumping that started at reasonable difficulty in the early levels, while still providing a chance to succeed. This was supposed to, in theory, scale all the way to high level, staying viable, especially against dragons.

    I will admit though, I don't have a full grasp of Saving Throws at the Higher levels of the game, so I can see how it may be unbalanced, if the majority of enemies won't scale that high.

    I have a couple of ideas to bring it inline with the proper math of such things, but still allow it to be viable at higher levels (the bonus against dragons sounds pretty good and I may use that, putting it into Weird of the Worm, but I dont wanna overbloat that ability). I'll hash out an idea or two and post the idea over the weekend. Thanks for the feedback!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Wow. This is overpowered as HELL. I don't even know where to start on this.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Wow. This is overpowered as HELL. I don't even know where to start on this.
    Start at the top, and work your way through.

    I'd greatly appreciate the feedback. I need the criticism if I want to refine this. Any ideas you have would help, even if only to soundboard what I have here.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    Due to a wonderful idea posted in another thread, Ive decided to flesh out my version of the Dragoon idea. This post is merely to add this to my sig, but feel free to peruse and leave imput. as you can see from my other class/subclass attempts, I need all the help i can get! Without Further ado, I give you......:


    FIGHTER MARTIAL ARCHETYPE - THE DRAGOON

    Spoiler: Story Element
    Show
    The Archetypal Dragoon is a Fighter who, through the course of many adventures, has come face to face with one of the great primal beings of our living world: a Dragon. Every fighters' reaction to this moment is different, but for some fighters, the way a Dragon fights, swooping in to attack and quickly begone, their size belying their swiftness and grace in the air, have taught them to emulate these beasts in their own human way. Whether to gain an advantage by being able to attack an enemy from above, or learning the incredible jumping abilities of a Dragoon to meet a soaring Dragon face to face in the sky, a Dragoon is a Dragon Slayer that brings the fight to the Dragon, instead of standing their ground on the firmament below.

    Dragoons train thier bodies with extreme strengthening exercises and harsh training, but a Dragoon is not a Dragoon until they receive thier Glyph - an ancient Draconic Word of Power etched onto their bodies in Dragon's Blood. Whether freely given by a 'benevolent' dragon, engraved on their body by a Dragoon Mentor, or awarded by a divine hand after a legendary event, the Glyph grants the Dragoon access to simple yet potent magic that allows them to utilize their physical prowess to sail to the skies for brief moments. This, and other gifts granteed as the Glyph matures, creates the Dragoon: an armored wonder of incredible versatility and power.



    Glyph Jump (Level 3)
    Upon receiving your glyph, you gain access to the first ability that separates you from conventional warriors and places you upon the path to your Legacy: Glyph Jump. At 3rd Level, you may give up one attack per turn to make a standing high jump to a height equal to your strength score + 3 in feet. Doing so allows you to choose a square within a 10 ft radius of your current position to land in, back on the ground. If you, instead, perform a long jump, you will travel a distance of your strength score + 3 in feet from a standing position, or a distance equal to your full movement, if you move at least 10 feet before attempting the jump. You may channel your falling damage to either a creature or into the ground, taking no falling damage while under the effects of glyph jumping. If you land within 10 ft of an enemy that is size Large or smaller while wielding a weapon with the reach property, that creature must succeed on a STR saving throw against a DC composed of 10 + your proficiency bonus + 1/2 your Class level, rounded up, or be knocked prone, taking all damage you would normally take when falling (1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 ft of distance fallen). If the creature is size Gargantuan, it cannot be knocked prone, and is subject to the damage conditions of this ability only. If the creature succeeds on his STR saving throw, it takes half the total damage and is not knocked prone. You may add your melee weapon damage to damage done by this ability if you sacrifice a second attack or an action surge to this ability, when you first declare the attack. At 7th level, the height of the standing jump of this ability is equal to your strength score + 10. At 15th level, the height of the standing jump of this ability is equal to your strength score + 20. You may only use this ability once per turn.


    Elusive Jump (Level 7)
    Your instincts for combat sharpen to near preternatural levels, allowing you to use your glyph jump maneuver to evade combat strikes. When an enemy succeeds in making an attack roll against you, you may use your reaction to make a DEX saving throw, with the enemy's natural attack roll as the DC for your saving throw. If successful, you take no damage from the attack and are able to leap up to 15ft in any direction. You must end your movement in an unoccupied square. Movement in this manner does not cause attacks of opportunity from nearby enemies.


    Weird of the Wyrm (Level 10)
    To understand a foe is to know a foe, and you have begun, through the dragon blood that flows through your glyph, to understand the Dragons' movements and screams. At 10th Level, you gain the ability to read and speak the Draconic language. You also gain the ability to instinctively strike a Dragon in such a way as to force even the largest Wyrm to the ground. If an enemy you have targeted with glyph jump is a Dragon or of Draconic descent, it will be knocked prone if it fails it's STR saving throw, even if it is sized Gargantuan. A Dragon or Draconic blooded enemy may also be targeted by glyph jump while that enemy is in flight, as long as the jump can reach its height.

    Elemental Essence (Level 15)
    You have learned the inner secrets of your glyph and its connection to the essence of the dragon who's blood was drawn for its making. You gain a semblance of his elemental abilities that you may use during some of your attacks. At 15th Level, choose an elemental damage type. This damage type may be drawn on to strengthen your combat prowess. Add 2d6 damage of the elemental type chosen to all attacks until the end of your next turn OR until you attack using the Glyph Jump feature. If used as part of the Glyph Jump feature, the elemental damage becomes 6d6 and affects all creatures within a 15ft radius. The Essence is expended at the end of your next turn or once you have used Glyph Jump. You may use this ability twice between long rests.

    Ancestral Roar (Level 18)
    You tap into the primal energies that are released when a Dragon roars, gaining the ability to tap into the primal fear all creatures instinctively hold toward this Apex Predator. You may use your Action to mimic an adult dragon's full Roar. Any enemy within 35 ft of you must make a CON saving throw vs 10 + CON + CHA + your proficiency bonus as the DC. Any enemy that fails the saving throw is feared for 5 turns. This ability may be used twice per short rest.


    EDIT: Annnnd done!.....for now. Added the flavor text for the Archetype itself, but not exactly in love with that paragraph, so it may change. Also added a horizontal ruling to Glyph Jumping as well, to give a bit of movement utility to it at the cost of an attack. Was thinking of adding a little more to elusive jump as well, but haven't decided to do it yet. Still, everything is up for first draft order and, hopefully, a few comments from the community. I appreciate the feedback!
    At third level, this grants you a bonus 2d6 damage, save for half (and a free prone effect) with a crazy high save DC. It's 14 at level 3, which is higher than any other save at that level (barring rolling for stats).

    Elusive Jump is OP as all hell. One feat (Resilient Dexterity) and you can have your proficiency bonus added to this. Assuming an AC of 17, and an average hit of 20, you'll succeed around 35% of the time. Which isn't as bad as I first thought, but it's a crazy useful free movement and attack negation. Still too much.

    Weird of the Wyrm is actually fine.

    Elemental Essence is probably okay, given how little it can be used.

    Ancestral Roar... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WITH THAT DC? That's going to around 22+! In addition, it's just one saver, five turns It NEEDS to allow a save on every turn.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    At third level, this grants you a bonus 2d6 damage, save for half (and a free prone effect) with a crazy high save DC. It's 14 at level 3, which is higher than any other save at that level (barring rolling for stats).

    Elusive Jump is OP as all hell. One feat (Resilient Dexterity) and you can have your proficiency bonus added to this. Assuming an AC of 17, and an average hit of 20, you'll succeed around 35% of the time. Which isn't as bad as I first thought, but it's a crazy useful free movement and attack negation. Still too much.

    Weird of the Wyrm is actually fine.

    Elemental Essence is probably okay, given how little it can be used.

    Ancestral Roar... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WITH THAT DC? That's going to around 22+! In addition, it's just one saver, five turns It NEEDS to allow a save on every turn.
    .....Ok, first, calm down. lol.
    Second, thank you for the feedback.

    I mentioned in an earlier reply that I don't exactly have full grasp of what constitutes a decent saving throw field in the higher levels. Apparently, I dont have it for the low levels either. Though in my defense, my DM constantly threw saving throw DCs of 14 (and up!) saving throws at us at level 3. It MAY have skewed what I believed to be a reasonable expectation of of Saving Throw DCs in the lower level. And the prone effect is only free on a Failed Saving Throw. The enemy is not knocked prone if they succeed. Im already in the process of hashing out the stat math for the saving throw, so I'll have a test up this weekend.

    As for Elusive Jump, while definltely potent, remember that youre sacrificing your reaction to get it, meaning you can only do it once a round. So you get that potent dodge and movement....exactly once a Round. That means against only one enemy (which will admittedly have trouble with you), but doesn't do much against any others that may be around you.

    Funny Story about Weird of the Worm....one of the ideas I have about changing Glyph Jump includes putting in another line to WotW, so that might change too.....T_T

    Glad you like Elemental Essence. I figured that having it longer than what I have listed would indeed be a bit too much, but also wanted something that would be a good force multiplier while up.

    As for Ancestral Roar.....heh notice how i said I didnt have a firm grasp of higher level Saving Throw expectation? Here's the proof in the pudding. Expect the Saving Throw calculations to change as I get a better grasp of enemy saving throw expectations at that level, but do you have any imput on the ability?

    As always, thanks for the feedback!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    .....Ok, first, calm down. lol.
    Second, thank you for the feedback.

    I mentioned in an earlier reply that I don't exactly have full grasp of what constitutes a decent saving throw field in the higher levels. Apparently, I dont have it for the low levels either. Though in my defense, my DM constantly threw saving throw DCs of 14 (and up!) saving throws at us at level 3. It MAY have skewed what I believed to be a reasonable expectation of of Saving Throw DCs in the lower level. And the prone effect is only free on a Failed Saving Throw. The enemy is not knocked prone if they succeed. Im already in the process of hashing out the stat math for the saving throw, so I'll have a test up this weekend.

    As for Elusive Jump, while definltely potent, remember that youre sacrificing your reaction to get it, meaning you can only do it once a round. So you get that potent dodge and movement....exactly once a Round. That means against only one enemy (which will admittedly have trouble with you), but doesn't do much against any others that may be around you.

    Funny Story about Weird of the Worm....one of the ideas I have about changing Glyph Jump includes putting in another line to WotW, so that might change too.....T_T

    Glad you like Elemental Essence. I figured that having it longer than what I have listed would indeed be a bit too much, but also wanted something that would be a good force multiplier while up.

    As for Ancestral Roar.....heh notice how i said I didnt have a firm grasp of higher level Saving Throw expectation? Here's the proof in the pudding.
    Expect the Saving Throw calculations to change as I get a better grasp of enemy saving throw expectations at that level, but do you have any imput on the ability?

    As always, thanks for the feedback!
    All saving throws should be 8+Stat mod+Proficiency. It's that simple.

    The issue with Elusive Jump is the free move. It can get you out of dangerous situations really damn easily. Surrounded? Dodge the first attack, and no you aren't. On the edge of a cliff? Dodge that attack, and suddenly, nope! Perhaps consider nabbing the Rogues Uncanny Dodge instead.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    One other thing I wanted to point out about Glyph Jump:
    at level 3 you're not getting 2d6 Extra damage.....youre damage is 2d6 Total. Remember, you are sacrificing your attack to Glyph Jump to do it. So at 3rd level, the 2D6 replaces your weapon damage. The only way to add more damage to this at 3rd level is to add another attack (which you have no more of at this level), or to Add your Action Surge to this ability (which you can only do once per short rest at this level). This is not like the damage riders some classes get, at least not at this level.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    One other thing I wanted to point out about Glyph Jump:
    at level 3 you're not getting 2d6 Extra damage.....youre damage is 2d6 Total. Remember, you are sacrificing your attack to Glyph Jump to do it. So at 3rd level, the 2D6 replaces your weapon damage. The only way to add more damage to this at 3rd level is to add another attack (which you have no more of at this level), or to Add your Action Surge to this ability (which you can only do once per short rest at this level). This is not like the damage riders some classes get, at least not at this level.
    It's also save for half, instead of no damage on a miss. In addition, it scales pretty quickly to get better.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    It's also save for half, instead of no damage on a miss. In addition, it scales pretty quickly to get better.
    This is true, though the amount of damage of a success is small. Also, as stated, all the scaling will be subject to change with the new Save computation thats coming this weekend.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    This is true, though the amount of damage of a success is small. Also, as stated, all the scaling will be subject to change with the new Save computation thats coming this weekend.
    It's equal to a greatsword.
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    It's equal to a greatsword.
    Wait, I thought we were talking about if the enemy succeeded on the saving throw. Thats half of 2D6. And at level 3, thats the only damage you do unless you feed it your Action Surge. Even on a failure, thats base greatsword damage, it doesnt have the strength modifiers of a wielded greatsword.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    Wait, I thought we were talking about if the enemy succeeded on the saving throw. Thats half of 2D6. And at level 3, thats the only damage you do unless you feed it your Action Surge. Even on a failure, thats base greatsword damage, it doesnt have the strength modifiers of a wielded greatsword.
    Alright, let's math this. Assuming a Strength Bonus of +3, a greatsword will deal 10 damage.

    Your jump will deal 7, 3.5 on a save.

    If you both hit and save half the time, your greatsword will deal, on average, 5 points of damage. (50%*10)

    The jump will deal (7*.5+3.5*.5) 5.25 damage, and has a chance of proning.

    The damage, I suppose, ain't the issue. +.25 damage on average is not a big deal. But an around 50% chance of knocking someone prone for basically free? That is.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Alright, let's math this. Assuming a Strength Bonus of +3, a greatsword will deal 10 damage.

    Your jump will deal 7, 3.5 on a save.

    If you both hit and save half the time, your greatsword will deal, on average, 5 points of damage. (50%*10)

    The jump will deal (7*.5+3.5*.5) 5.25 damage, and has a chance of proning.

    The damage, I suppose, ain't the issue. +.25 damage on average is not a big deal. But an around 50% chance of knocking someone prone for basically free? That is.
    Not quite. Remember, if the fighter is just attacking with the Greatsword, there is no saving throw for the enemy. So there's no damage reduction for that. As long as the greatsword hits, that fighter in the example will still hit for an average based off of 10 damage, not 5.

    The Dragoon in the example will be affected by the enemy's save, so his number is accurate. But because of the Saving Throw for the enemy connected to Glyph Jumping, the Greatsword fighter will pull ahead damagewise, if assumed an equal number of successful attacks for each fighter.

    About the proning, thats a fair point. However, I don't think that the 50% chance of knockdown pushes this ability into an overpowered state, especially when considering that by this weekend, the enemy will have an easier time making the DC saving throw. Its a good mix of utility and damage that doesn't guarantee the knockdown, and doesn't fully reward you if the enemy makes the save.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    Not quite. Remember, if the fighter is just attacking with the Greatsword, there is no saving throw for the enemy. So there's no damage reduction for that. As long as the greatsword hits, that fighter in the example will still hit for an average based off of 10 damage, not 5.

    The Dragoon in the example will be affected by the enemy's save, so his number is accurate. But because of the Saving Throw for the enemy connected to Glyph Jumping, the Greatsword fighter will pull ahead damagewise, if assumed an equal number of successful attacks for each fighter.

    About the proning, thats a fair point. However, I don't think that the 50% chance of knockdown pushes this ability into an overpowered state, especially when considering that by this weekend, the enemy will have an easier time making the DC saving throw. Its a good mix of utility and damage that doesn't guarantee the knockdown, and doesn't fully reward you if the enemy makes the save.
    Except you don't always hit. I calculated it as if there was a 50% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of making the save.

    So yeah, on average, this actually does more damage, and has a prone rider. (ESPECIALLY against Dex-based foes, who'll have crap for strength saves.)
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Except you don't always hit. I calculated it as if there was a 50% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of making the save.

    So yeah, on average, this actually does more damage, and has a prone rider. (ESPECIALLY against Dex-based foes, who'll have crap for strength saves.)
    Now thats a fair point. Though with the advent of luck, the fighter actually pulls ahead if both he hits one more time/misses one less time, and the Dragoon's enemy fails his save one extra time. (6/4 success to loss, vs. 5/5 success to loss). Im still ok with that damage scenario, due to it being close enough for the fighter to pull ahead with a little luck.

    The Prone effect is a very good point though. While I like the way the mechanic works, I will DEFINITELY be making sure of the success/fail window when I delve back into it this weekend. It will probably need to be a little lower (enemies have a better chance of succeeding against it) to keep it balanced, but I'll see what I can work out.

    Thanks for the food for thought!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    As for Ancestral Roar.....heh notice how i said I didnt have a firm grasp of higher level Saving Throw expectation? Here's the proof in the pudding. Expect the Saving Throw calculations to change as I get a better grasp of enemy saving throw expectations at that level, but do you have any imput on the ability?

    As always, thanks for the feedback!
    I think the key here is to let it be a normal DC (8+stat+prof), and accept that the BBEG will succeed the save (sometimes before they even roll their bonus will succeed it for them), and instead have its use be to keep all their mooks off of you.
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Aside from what others are saying you have walls of texts on abilities that are should be simple. It is one thing if you are explaining a new mechanic but I don't see that here.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2016-07-30 at 11:53 AM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Ok, here are the changes im considering imputing. Its going to affect 3 powers: Glyph Jump, Weird of the Worm, and Ancestral Roar.

    Glyph Jump:
    The first change would be to bring the formula inline with 5e regulations (8+ prof+ STR bonus). The second one im still on the fence about. By making it a STR save, it was pointed out to me that DEX based enemies get a harder chance to dodge. The same would be true for STR based enemies if I made it a DEX save.....so what if I make it a CON save? I could see it going either of the 3, though DEX is the least 'buyable' of the 3, feel wise, due to the fact that it does auto hit. However, I do like the way the mechanic works right now, so that will not be changing. I think CON might be the best 'middle ground' choice that doesn't necessarily favor Strong enemies, or dexterous enemies.

    Weird of the Wyrm:
    Since this class is about fighting Dragons specifically, this ability is supposed to help focus on that fact. However, with a more realistic chance to save for other creatures, It may make Dragons almost always win their saves. My idea for this is to add a line to weird of the wyrm that either allows you to double your added proficiency to Glyph Jump when facing Dragons/Draconic bloodlines, or perhaps add another stat (Im leaning toward one of the figther's lower stats like either CON, or WIS due to this being knowledge based; was thinking DEX, but that may still run into the problem mentioned in Glyph Jump).

    Ancestral Roar:
    Someone upthread mentioned that I should just give up on this ability being very effective against Dragons themselves, and allow it to be a mook herder........and after some consideration, I think I agree with him/her. so the change is just bring it inline with 5e calculations: 8+ Prof+ STR. Was thinking CHA, but that might be too low on a fighter for this to be a viable ability that you get so late.

    Well, here are my thoughts for changes. I'll give it a couple of days, and if they seem viable or no real resistance to them, I'll update the Archetype and go from there. Let me know what you guys think!
    Last edited by Grayfigure; 2016-07-31 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Because all my Wyrms had to be treated for Worms >_<

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    Ok, here are the changes im considering imputing. Its going to affect 3 powers: Glyph Jump, Weird of the Worm, and Ancestral Roar.

    Glyph Jump:
    The first change would be to bring the formula inline with 5e regulations (8+ prof+ STR bonus). The second one im still on the fence about. By making it a STR save, it was pointed out to me that DEX based enemies get a harder chance to dodge. The same would be true for STR based enemies if I made it a DEX save.....so what if I make it a CON save? I could see it going either of the 3, though DEX is the least 'buyable' of the 3, feel wise, due to the fact that it does auto hit. However, I do like the way the mechanic works right now, so that will not be changing. I think CON might be the best 'middle ground' choice that doesn't necessarily favor Strong enemies, or dexterous enemies.

    Weird of the Worm:
    Since this class is about fighting Dragons specifically, this ability is supposed to help focus on that fact. However, with a more realistic chance to save for other creatures, It may make Dragons almost always win their saves. My idea for this is to add a line to weird of the worm that either allows you to double your added proficiency to Glyph Jump when facing Dragons/Draconic bloodlines, or perhaps add another stat (Im leaning toward one of the figther's lower stats like either CON, or WIS due to this being knowledge based; was thinking DEX, but that may still run into the problem mentioned in Glyph Jump).

    Ancestral Roar:
    Someone upthread mentioned that I should just give up on this ability being very effective against Dragons themselves, and allow it to be a mook herder........and after some consideration, I think I agree with him/her. so the change is just bring it inline with 5e calculations: 8+ Prof+ STR. Was thinking CHA, but that might be too low on a fighter for this to be a viable ability that you get so late.

    Well, here are my thoughts for changes. I'll give it a couple of days, and if they seem viable or no real resistance to them, I'll update the Archetype and go from there. Let me know what you guys think!
    The issue with Glyph jump isn't the choice of save-it's that the damage is very much on par with normal attacking, but it has a rider, making it pretty much purely better.

    Weird of the Wyrm (Worms are different) is fine as-is. It lets you affect even the mightiest of dragons, and while sure, they'll usually make their save, all it takes is one failure to send them crashing to the ground, and Glyph Jump is at will.

    I think for Roar, you could have it be Charisma. It makes the most sense, and Fighters have the needed stat boosts to cover MADness. (Especially since this can be used pretty much EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER, following the usual rest recommendations.)
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayfigure View Post
    Ok, here are the changes im considering imputing. Its going to affect 3 powers: Glyph Jump, Weird of the Worm, and Ancestral Roar.

    Glyph Jump:
    The first change would be to bring the formula inline with 5e regulations (8+ prof+ STR bonus). The second one im still on the fence about. By making it a STR save, it was pointed out to me that DEX based enemies get a harder chance to dodge. The same would be true for STR based enemies if I made it a DEX save.....so what if I make it a CON save? I could see it going either of the 3, though DEX is the least 'buyable' of the 3, feel wise, due to the fact that it does auto hit. However, I do like the way the mechanic works right now, so that will not be changing. I think CON might be the best 'middle ground' choice that doesn't necessarily favor Strong enemies, or dexterous enemies.

    Weird of the Wyrm:
    Since this class is about fighting Dragons specifically, this ability is supposed to help focus on that fact. However, with a more realistic chance to save for other creatures, It may make Dragons almost always win their saves. My idea for this is to add a line to weird of the wyrm that either allows you to double your added proficiency to Glyph Jump when facing Dragons/Draconic bloodlines, or perhaps add another stat (Im leaning toward one of the figther's lower stats like either CON, or WIS due to this being knowledge based; was thinking DEX, but that may still run into the problem mentioned in Glyph Jump).

    Ancestral Roar:
    Someone upthread mentioned that I should just give up on this ability being very effective against Dragons themselves, and allow it to be a mook herder........and after some consideration, I think I agree with him/her. so the change is just bring it inline with 5e calculations: 8+ Prof+ STR. Was thinking CHA, but that might be too low on a fighter for this to be a viable ability that you get so late.

    Well, here are my thoughts for changes. I'll give it a couple of days, and if they seem viable or no real resistance to them, I'll update the Archetype and go from there. Let me know what you guys think!
    1. The main issue people have with it is that you are both adding more movement, possibly a large amount of damage, and a rider for just trading an attack. The ability itself scales with any more chances you have getting an attack off. While I would argue a save becomes inferior to an attack in terms of accuracy allowing half damage with all of the stuff you add makes this a trade that will always be used even if dealing with very large opponents. This ability to me is something that should take more time or effort to utilize. If it were action in and of itself this would much simpler.
    2. What this sub-class needs is some more interaction or exploration abilities not based upon attacks.
    3. 35 feet and a con. save is really weird, this also needs some 5e terminology like being frightened and a proper save DC. At 18th level though this feels a little late and under powered once you update it for 5e.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2016-07-31 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass (Updated 7/31/16)

    To answer a few questions:

    JNAProductions
    To be honest with you, I like the way mechanic works for the ability, so its probably not going to change. However, the poster that I will answer next brought up a good point that I will be considering as a viable change as well. See more in the next poster answer.

    As far as WotW goes (and thanks for pointing out the Worm infection it had lol), Im not sure if, after the change, the Glyph Jump will be able to bring down dragons to a decent degree, which is why I added the small buff to WotW. The operative term here, however, is 'small'. I realize now im kinda out of wack on the balancing of saving throws come higher levels, so im still on the fence to WotW's latest change. If it proves to be too much of a boost, I can totally see dropping the extra stat boost. Still working it out in my head!

    On Roar, I really do agree about CHA being the best thematic fit.....but I worry that makes the build drown in OverMADness. STR for Glyph Jump, DEX for Elusive Jump, WIS or CHA for WotW, and CHA for Ancestral Roar puts a lot of groan on your Ability Scores. Still working this part out in my head, cus I like the 'feel' of Roar linked to CHA, but haven't finalized my thoughts on it yet. I'll keep ya posted!

    Amnoriath
    While, like I mentioned to JNA, the mechanic is probably gonna stay, I think you make a good point on the movement. Ive been thinking that getting an extra 10 ft of movement every turn starting at level 3, while by itself is not amazing (monks and others get it), that combined with the rider and the damage is a bit much. I was thinking of having Glyph Jump and normal movement be mutually exclusive: if you jump, you are considered as having used your full movement, and if you move, you cannot Glyph Jump this turn. The wording is gonna be a little tough to figure out, but I think that might be a decent compromise that also helps reign down its damage somewhat. What do you guys think?

    Funny Story about WotW: it started out as exactly that. It was only supposed to be a language ribbon in my first iteration, but I was told by a few friends that it needed to do more. It began to mutate after that lol. That being said, im kinda liking its current evolution.

    I will admit that 35 ft was an idea i had to take it a little further than the usual 30 ft limitation you usually see, but I can easily admit that I have no real reservation about converting it to 30. The CON save makes it feel like a 'gut check' type of save, where all your senses are rebelling against you, telling you this THING is a monster and we must get away, but a small part inside of you is like 'nah, thats BS. Fight it!'. Thats the idea i have in my head for it anyway. The terminology is absolutely needing a change, and also the ability to try to save once a turn is definitely needed (though i may or may not strive for a case of pushing the effect out to 1 minute if thats the case; jury's still out on that idea).

    Anyway, keep up the feedback. I like it!


    UPDATE:
    Ok, here is what the preliminary wording looks like, edited here to avoid double posting:

    Glyph Jump (Level 3)
    Upon receiving your glyph, you gain access to the first ability that separates you from conventional warriors and places you upon the path to your Legacy: Glyph Jump. At 3rd Level, you may give up one attack per turn to make a standing high jump to a height equal to your strength score + 3 in feet. Doing so allows you to choose a square within a 10 ft radius of your current position to land in, back on the ground. If you, instead, perform a long jump, you will travel a distance of your strength score + 3 in feet from a standing position. You may channel your falling damage to either a creature or into the ground, taking no falling damage while under the effects of glyph jumping. If you land within 10 ft of an enemy that is size Large or smaller while wielding a weapon with the reach property, that creature must succeed on a CON saving throw against a DC composed of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your STR bonus, or be knocked prone, taking all damage you would normally take when falling (1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 ft of distance fallen). If the creature is size Gargantuan, it cannot be knocked prone, and is subject to the damage conditions of this ability only. If the creature succeeds on his CON saving throw, it takes half the total damage and is not knocked prone. You may add your melee weapon damage to damage done by this ability if you sacrifice a second attack or an action surge to this ability, when you first declare the attack. At 7th level, the height of the standing jump of this ability is equal to your strength score + 10. At 15th level, the height of the standing jump of this ability is equal to your strength score + 20. You may not use this ability if you have moved during this turn, and once this ability is used, your Movement is considered used for this turn, even if you have not moved. You may only use this ability once per turn.


    Weird of the Wyrm (Level 10)
    To understand a foe is to know a foe, and you have begun, through the dragon blood that flows through your glyph, to understand the Dragons' movements and screams. At 10th Level, you gain the ability to read and speak the Draconic language. You also gain the ability to instinctively strike a Dragon in such a way as to force even the largest Wyrm to the ground. If an enemy you have targeted with glyph jump is a Dragon or of Draconic descent, you gain a bonus to Glyph Jump's DC that equals your WIS modifier against that creature.. It will also be knocked prone if it fails it's CON saving throw, even if it is sized Gargantuan. A Dragon or Draconic blooded enemy may also be targeted by glyph jump while that enemy is in flight, as long as the jump can reach its height.


    Ancestral Roar (Level 18)
    You tap into the primal energies that are released when a Dragon roars, gaining the ability to tap into the primal fear all creatures instinctively hold toward this Apex Predator. You may use your Action to mimic an adult dragon's full Roar. Any enemy within 30 ft of you must make a CON saving throw vs 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your CHA modifier as the DC. Any enemy that fails the saving throw is frightened for 5 turns. Each enemy affected will be able to attempt another CON saving throw at the beginning of each turn. If they succeed on their Saving Throw, the effect ends. This ability may be used twice per short rest.

    I'll leave these up for a few days to see how they feel. Let me know what you think!
    Last edited by Grayfigure; 2016-08-01 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Edited in changes at end of post

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Dragoon - a Final Fantasy themed Fighter subclass

    Man, I wish I made better attempts to read the Unearthed Arcana that comes out. It turns out that there was an ability created for the Storm Sorcerer that was surprisingly close to what I made for my Glyph Jump ability. Its the ability called Tempestuous Magic and it really would have made my thought processing a LOT easier.

    Link to the PDF is here:
    https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...erborne_v3.pdf

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