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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Hey guys! I hope you can help me balance this class. I accept criticism and reviews. I would like to know which tier you would put this into. And if anyone has ideas i am open to any help!
    Edit: Some balancing done. Special thanks found below the class. If anyone else has some great ideas how to improve this class in fluff, ability or balancing wise, feel free to comment! If anyone playtests it please share your experience!


    Plunderer

    There is no more glory to be achieved than stealing from a god!
    —Brailé, Elf Ranger5/Plunderer2, Teachings of Olidammara, p.44 l.2

    In this day and age, many call themselves as thieves. But what are thieves and what is their role in a fight? Well, simply put, thieves lent without asking and don't ever return it. For their role in battle it is the same, they lent everything from their opponents. You can't simply call Wizards pickpocketing some books or scrolls thieves. They are no more than wizards with a knack for knowledge. You can't call a Paladin taking the treasure of an evil dragon a thief because he is regarded a hero. In fact a real thief utilizes the most cunning and effective way to fight of all. Instead of smashing against shields or enduring magical effects he relieves enemies of heavy armor and complex writings. And only then he attacks them! Isn't that nice of him? Well Plunderers are the embodiment of true theft. They don't simply steal: They disarm, relocate and exchange what their enemy possess. A Wizard is suddenly missing his staff, a Ranger holds a snake in his hand instead of an arrow or a Fighter suddenly holding the blade of his sword instead of the grip are the few examples of how a plunderer acts in a battle. Hindering the opponent from doing what they are best at and hurting them when they are vulnerable.

    Becoming a Plunderer

    Most classes that pursue this class are followers of Olidammara and therefore have a special view on things. From rogues to clerics anything can become a plunderer. But mostly agile and experienced followers take up this class to improve their cunning in battle. The most important stats to a Plunderer are Dex and Int.


    Entry Requirements

    Alignment: A plunderer isn't necessarily chaotic. They may posses the ability to steal better than simple street thugs or rogues but some of them still abide the laws(sometimes) and mainly use their skills for controlling the battlefield. However it is unheard of plunderers ever being strictly lawful.
    Race: All humanoid races can become Plunderers. Humans are the most common plunderers thanks to their adaptability.
    Skills: A Plunderer needs Tumble(8) and Sleight of Hand(5).
    Feats: Deft Hands.
    Patron: Either Olidammara or none.
    Base Attack Bonus: +3.
    Special: The to-be Plunderer has to craft a mask with a tearing white face half and grinning dark face half. He can attempt this either with his own craft skill(if appropriate) and pray to Olidamara sacrificing 100g or finding someone with the "Craft Wondrous Item" feat(CL 5, Minor Image, 100g).

    Table: The Plunderer
    Hit Die: d6
    Level BAB Saves Special Spells Per Day
    Fort Ref Will 1 2 3 4 5 6
    1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Steal, Knock, Masked Thief - - - - - -
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Deep Pockets, Sudden Leap - - - - - -
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Steal +1, Insightful Strike 3 - - - - -
    4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Detect, Masked Casting 4 3 - - - -
    5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Steal +2 5 4 - - - -
    6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Disappear 6 5 4 - - -
    7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Steal +3 6 6 5 4 - -
    8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Improved Insightful Strike, Hide in Plain Sight 6 6 6 5 - -
    9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Steal +4 6 6 6 6 5 -
    10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Siphon Strike 6 6 6 6 6 5

    Class Skills (8 + Int modifier per level)

    Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration(Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform(Mimic Voice) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex).
    Class Features[edit]

    All of the following are class features of the Plunderer.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Plunderers are proficient with Daggers and Light Armor.

    Spells: A Plunderer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Plunderer spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a Plunderer gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the Plunderer's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list and he casts all spells spontaneously. Similar to other casters the Plunderer gets additional spells per day with a high Int score. To cast a spell, a Plunderer must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Plunderer's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the Plunderer's Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Plunderer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1—1: The Plunderer. In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high Intelligence score (see Table 1—1, page 8 of the Player's Handbook).

    Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause his spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). A Plunderer's experience and specialized spell range, however, allows him to avoid arcane spell failure as long as he sticks to no or light armor. This training does neither extend to medium, heavy armor or shields nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class. Furthermore a Plunderer can't cast spells at all in medium or heavy armor as well as with shields of any sort.

    Table: Plunderer Spells Known, below, details which spells you know at each level.

    Masked Thief (Su): Upon entering this class every Plunderer crafts a mask for himself. This mask uses the face equipment slot and gives a bonus to bluff +5. Every person that sees a Plunderer wearing this mask sees a different fake face and can't relate to his original face. A Plunderer can put on/off this mask once per round as a swift action. If the mask gets destroyed it can be crafted anew like described above. Against Dispels Check the mask is treated as if it has a +5 higher caster level, however others can only target your mask if they know about it and can't randomly dispel the mask.
    The mask is connected to one of his hands which is engraved with the holy symbol of Olidammara. This symbol in difference to the mask is needed for all of his class abilities. He therefore can't wield two-handed weapons, off-hand weapons or shields. Note that he isn't prohibited from using them, he barely looses access to his abilities while doing so.


    Plunderers Spell List

    Plunderers choose their spells from the following list:
    1st Level: alibi, animate rope, appraising touch, cheat, color spray, create water, disguise self, detect secret doors, entangle, expeditious retreat, feather fall, ghost sound, grease, identify, jump, longstrider, mage hand, obscuring mist, silent image, sleep.
    2nd Level: alter self, arcane lock, cat’s grace, continual flame, darkness, entice gift, fool's gold, fox’s cunning, enthrall, flash-freeze, illusory script, invisibility, glitterdust, pass without trace, see invisibility, silence, spider climb, undetectable alignment, web.
    3rd Level: blacklight, blink, deep slumber, deeper darkness, dispel magic, displacement, false life, haste, heroism, minor image, misdirection, nondetection, shrink item, snare.
    4th Level: clairaudience/clairvoyance, confusion, detect scrying, dimensional anchor, dimension door, freedom of movement, glibness, greater invisibility, illusory wall, locate creature, major image, modify memory.
    5th Level: false vision, interposing hand, nightmare, phantasmal thief, secret chest, seeming, teleport.
    6th Level: antimagic field, greater dispel magic, greater heroism, mislead, permanent image, programmed image, shadow walk, veil.


    Knock (Sp): At 1st level a Plunderer picks up the ability to open the doors to hell. This ability is usable 1/level per day and works similar to the spell knock. Upon activating "Knock" with a snap of his fingers(he needs a free hand to do this) he is able to unlock stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors. It opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold closures shut). If used to open an arcane locked door, the ability does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes.
    Knock is a Swift Action and can be used on a single target or in an area 50 ft + 10 ft/level. If the ability is used in an area, it automatically reveals all possible locks within range. It reveals targets behinds doors, double locks or multiple locks, locks within a bag or chest and so on. The Plunderer can choose to unlock 1 lock per 3 points in Open Lock. If any of the locks, doors and so on is trapped, he can use his Disable Device Check to automatically remove the trap. However the trap is only revealed to the Plunderer if he has trapsense or successfully disabled the trap. If the trap is magical he can disable the trap with a Disable Device Check similar to the rogue. The difficulty for removing a magical trap is DC 25 + Spelllevel of the magical trap.
    The Plunderer can furthermore decide to put a reset on opened locks and opened doors and so on. If he puts a reset on them, they will be locked, closed again and so on, as if nobody opened them in the first place after 10 minutes. The spell, however doesn't reset traps or broken parts.

    Steal (Su): Stealing is what a Plunderer can do best. At 1st level and every two levels thereafter a Plunderer gets 1 more Steal attempt per encounter. All Steal attempts have a Will Save that needs to beat the Sleight of Hand check of the Plunderer. A Steal attempt can be used as a Move or Standard Action and doesn't provoke Attack of Opportunities.

    1: At 1st level Steal works like the retrieve Power except for changes noted: Steal can't be augmented (not a power), you can steal items weighing up to 100 lb + 10 lb for every two levels and the item appears in your free hand.

    2: At 3rd level a Steal attempt can be used as a "Shifting Fault" attempt instead. The Shifting Fault works like the retrieve Power except for changes noted: Shifting Fault can't be augmented, you can place items instead of stealing weighing up to 100 lb + 10 lb per two levels, Shifting Fault is an Immediate Action and these items can be placed in bags, closed chests, behind doors and so on. The place where the item is put has to be of non solid material or have space left, or the Shifting Fault attempt fails.

    3: At 5th level a Steal attempt can be used as a "Displace" attempt instead. The Displace works like the retrieve Power except for changes noted: Displace can't be augmented, you won't steal the effected item, the item can weigh up to 100 lb + 10 lb per two levels, Displace is an Immediate Action and you simply change the way the item is placed. A sword that was held by a Fighter by its handle can be displaced to be held by its blade which causes damage to wielder and makes him drop his weapon, a wanted Poster that shows the face of the Plunderer can be turned around when a guard walks by or a staff of a wizard can be turned around to cast spells into the opposite direction if the wielder fails to notice (DC 20 Spot Check/only once).

    4: At 5th level a Steal attempt can be used as an "Exchange" attempt instead. The Exchange works like the retrieve Power except for changes noted: Exchange can't be augmented, you can steal items weighing up to 50 lb + 10 lb per two levels, you have to place an item in the same spot weighing up to 50 lb + 10 lb per two levels, exchange is an Immediate Action and works like a Steal + Shifting attempt. An arrow that was held by a Ranger can be exchanged for a snake that will attack the ranger and hinder his attack, a ring can be exchanged for a fake ring without the possessor noticing or something placed in the bag can be exchanged for a cursed item.

    Deep Pockets (Su): At 2nd level any coin or gem a Plunderer puts into his pockets and bags is reduced in its size and weight by 1/10. This works similar as the shrink item spell.

    Sudden Leap (Ex): At 2nd level whenever a ranged attack against the Plunderer misses or is blocked, he can make a Tumble Check against the previously missed Attack Roll and use a Sudden Leap on a successful roll. He leaps for his current speed modifier in any direction once per round as an Immediate Action. A successful roll doesn't provoke Attacks of Opportunity. If a close ranged attack misses or is blocked, he can use an Escape Artist Check instead against the previously made Attack Roll and use a Sudden Leap backwards for his current speed modifier. If he succeeds the check he leaps without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. This also counts as an Immediate Action and can be used once per round. If one of the checks fails and he ends his Sudden Leap in enemy threat range he provokes an Attack of Opportunity. The Plunderer has to designate his leap before the roll and can't use both types of Sudden Leap in the same round.

    Insightful Strike (Su):At 3rd level a Plunderer gets an Insight Bonus equal to his Int Modifier(if any) additionally to any Strength Modifier to his Attack Rolls. The Plunderer is a thief, however even a thief needs to be able to defend himself if ever threatened into a corner. Therefore most Plunderers memorize all possible moves and ways to use a dagger and their bare fists. This insight bonus only applies to daggers, unarmed strikes and natural weapons extending from their arms like claws.
    At 8th level a Plunderer becomes even more proficient with his weapons of choice. Experience and Knowledge add to each of their strike. From now on a Plunderer can add his Int Modifier(if any) to all Damage Rolls additionally to the Strength Modifier.

    Detect (Sp): At 4th level a Plunderer sharpens his senses to the extreme with magic and enables Detect at will. Clicking with his tongue the Plunderer sends sound waves in his surroundings. Detect works like echolocation and reveals all objects surrounding the Plunderer up to 50 feet with their exact positions. A Plunderer can effectively "see" the defining lines of objects in this radius in an otherwise complete dark room. This works also in magical darkness but not in magical silence or extreme noise. Objects that are alive are surrounded by red outlines however fake life doesn't get revealed (constructs, undead etc). Coins and gems are highlighted in yellow outlines. Anything magical in blue and anything psionic purple. With this ability the Plunderer gets a pretty accurate view on everything surrounding him. He can use 1 round to concentrate on a specific revealed target to get more information out of it. As if using arcane sight or aura sight. By concentrating on coins or gems for 1 round he can use his appraise skill even if they are behind a wall, bag or similar. By concentrating on life force he can determine if the other living being has the same amount of hit dice, less or more.

    Masked Casting (Su): At 4th level the Plunderer gains improved spellcasting while wearing his mask and works spells with a caster level equal his total level instead of his Plunderer Level. Through many dangerous encounters the Plunderer realized that being the faster caster helped him getting away from his pursuers more than once. Despite him being a spontaneous caster and missing the trained concentration of other casters, he accelerates his voice and gestures in order to quicken all his spells as if affected by quicken spell. He can only do so with his own spell list and spells quickened like this don't use a higher spell slot . This effectively lets him cast spells as a swift action if they take no more than 1 round to cast. He can only quicken 1 spell per round.

    Disappear (Ex):At 6th level a Plunderer is able to hide himself effectively in crowds. Whenever a Plunderer is trying to hide or run from enemies he can try to disappear in a crowd. He can effectively use hide while being in a crowd full of people by using his mask and changing his appearance several times. A plunderer is trained in running away and moves with full speed instead of being slowed by obstacles. He gets a +10 bonus on Hide Checks done within crowds. On a successful hiding attempt he leaves no traces and enemies loose him.

    Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, a Plunderer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he wears his mask and is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a Plunderer can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He gets an additional hide +5 bonus when he uses this ability at night.
    He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

    Siphon Strike (Su): At 10th level, a Plunderer unlocks knowledge to a new move. If a Plunderer can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can ram his weapon into his opponent and drain him of his vitality.
    The Plunderer’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Plunderer flanks his target. This extra damage is 5d6. Should the Plunderer score a critical hit with a Siphon Strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. If a Strike is successful he leaves the enemy fatigued and heals the Plunderer for 1/3 of the siphon damage. Siphon Strikes can only be done with Daggers and has only 1 + Int modifier attempts per day. If the target is a spellcaster or manifester roll a d10. The number rolled indicates the spellslot level that gets drained and therefore blocked.(10 = cantrip or 10 PP, 1 = 1st level or 1 PP, 2 = 2nd level spell slot or 2 PP and so on). If the roll is higher than the highest known spell of the spellcaster the highest available spell gets drained instead leaving the spellcaster exhausted. If a manifester has less PP left than the rolled number he is now exhausted. The spellcaster's slot that was drained now frees up 1 slot of the Plunderer 3 levels lower but at least a level 1 spell slot. The manifester's PP that were drained now free up 1 slot of the Plunderer's spell slots 4 levels lower but at least a level 1 spell slot.

    Ex-Plunderers
    Plunderers suffer no repercussions.


    Campaign Information

    Playing a Plunderer
    Combat: Medium Spellcasting, Trickery, Melee
    Advancement: Best options for a Plunderer are Rogues, Rangers or any class that enhances physical performance and offers Tumble.
    Resources: They might not get robbed by other Plunderers. You don't steal from your own flock of birds.

    Plunderers in the World
    “ In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. ”
    Plunderers can be found almost everywhere. They simply adept their thievery to local needs.
    NPC Reactions: At best most NPC can tell that a Plunderer is a pretty good thief. They react rather unfriendly if they know a Plunderer for his crimes.

    Plunderer Lore
    Characters with ranks in Knowledge (local) (Int) can research Plunderers to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including information from lower DCs.

    Knowledge (local) (Int)
    DC Result
    11 Plunderers utilize magic in addition to their normal tools .

    16 Some Plunderers seem to be magic scholars that failed to enlist in magical schools or find a mentor.

    21 Many Plunderers seem to have connections to Archmages and the like. It is not know if they sell and buy from them or get lessons in magic.

    35 The mask needed to unlock the powers of a Plunderer resembles the mask of Olidammara but anyone can become a Plunderer. Most Plunderer don't understand why Olidammara is granting Power to these People. In fact these powers are pieces left from the previous thief goddess. Olidammara wasn't able to fully absorb her powers. What was left still lives within the veins of magic laylines and automatically gets absorbed by anyone wearing a mask of this kind for the first time.

    70 Some of the wisest follower of Olidammara managed to decipher a hidden code within the scattered pieces of Olidammara's teachings. They tell about a long forgotten time when a different goddess was in charge of Olidammara's domains. They tell about a different Olidammara altogether. While their names are the same she was slain for unknown reasons. The new Olidammara, now male, was the new god in charge of her domains. The only thing known is that Olidammara was a far stronger goddess than the current Olidammara.

    Plunderer in the Game
    As a PC the Plunderer contributes a lot by manipulating the battlefield. He is the best at doing underhanded tricks and a skillmonkey for many problems. As an NPC Plunderers normally either are thieves or local heroes branded as thieves. Some Plunderer's are travelers in search of Ollidammara's true origins.
    Adaptation: A campaign that involves secrets and gods interfering with the world a Plunderer fits in perfectly. There is no more glory to be achieved than stealing from a god afterall.
    Sample Encounter: CR 8: Ranger 5/Plunderer 5

    EL whatever: El 8, Most Plunderers run away if possible. Only if cornered they fight.

    Thief guilds
    Many Plunderers enjoy the benefits of their local, regional or even international thief guilds. Benefits include contacts with information about anything, bribes to remove unwanted wanted posters or other things, fences that offer 75% of the items value instead of only half, quarters and many more. However these benefits also come with a codex to be respected. Thieves never steal from each other, deprecate murder except for self defense and never directly tell where thief guilds are located. Many thieves also leave 10% of their income to the thief guilds for improvements and to show their respect. Thieves that disrespect these will be punished harshly and might loose benefits until redeemed. Some established thieves benefits from special quests and tasks.

    Special Thanks to: Guigarci, Gnorman
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-07-14 at 02:07 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    It looks like a very capable class, though the table and individual entries still need a lot of proofreading work. The spellcasting alone probably pushes this into Tier 3 territory, the quick access to spells and the abilities push up to a very high Tier 3. The spell list is versatile and useful, but does taper off a bit at higher levels, and so I'd hesitate to throw this class into Tier 1-2 territory, although it is very, very strong.

    A couple of points though:
    - The Plunderer gets way too many spells per day as compared to most bard-style casters, and its progression is too quick. You shouldn't be getting level 6 spells until the 9th or 10th level of this class.
    - Your entry requirements are very odd. As it is, a Fighter or a Ranger can take this class before a Rogue, and can get accelerated casting as early as level 4. While not quite Ur-Priest level, this is pretty strong. I can get 6th level spells at a character level of 9 - that's two full levels before the Wizard. I would change the Sleight of Hand requirement to 8 ranks, and the Tumble requirement to 5.
    - The restriction to Medium creatures is baffling to me. Wouldn't Small creatures be better at stealing?

    In the end, I think you've got too many things going on here. By the end of its run (at level 14, if you're doing it right), you've got level 6 spells, a respectable sneak attack analogue in siphon strike, hide in plain sight, Intelligence to attacks, free metamagic, and some very powerful stealing and detection abilities. I think you could have a class that focuses just on the "stealing" abilities and it would still be a good class. As it is, you've made a class that any mundane character would be crazy not to take.

    EDIT: Here's a table for you.

    Level BAB Saves Special Spells Per Day
    Fort Ref Will 1 2 3 4 5 6
    1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Steal, Knock 1 - - - - -
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Deep Pockets, Sudden Leap 2 1 - - - -
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Steal +1, Insightful Strike 3 2 1 - - -
    4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Detect, Improved Spellcasting 4 3 2 1 - -
    5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Steal +2 5 4 3 2 1 -
    6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Disappear, Hide in Plain Sight 6 5 4 3 2 1
    7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Steal +3 7 6 5 4 3 2
    8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Improved Insightful Strike 7 7 6 5 4 3
    9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Steal +4 7 7 7 6 5 4
    10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Siphon Strike 7 7 7 7 6 5

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    there is a native "Make a Table" option in here...

    Regarding requirements: for a sneaky class I feel BAB 4 is less... thematic than a Sleight of hand 7; it is odd that rogues have a harder time getting into a "thief" class than fighters do.
    Also it is odd that you need to get this mask, and then it isn't talked or heard of again; i'd expect some abilities to enhance the mask: from undetectable alignment, to increasing bonuses to disguise, to maybe mind blank or the like.

    Also: what is the caster level for knock?
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2016-04-05 at 04:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    First off thanks for taking your time to help me! Thank you for the table, didn't know they were built in xD...

    A couple of points though:
    It looks like a very capable class, though the table and individual entries still need a lot of proofreading work. The spellcasting alone probably pushes this into Tier 3 territory, the quick access to spells and the abilities push up to a very high Tier 3. The spell list is versatile and useful, but does taper off a bit at higher levels, and so I'd hesitate to throw this class into Tier 1-2 territory, although it is very, very strong.

    - The Plunderer gets way too many spells per day as compared to most bard-style casters, and its progression is too quick. You shouldn't be getting level 6 spells until the 9th or 10th level of this class.
    - Your entry requirements are very odd. As it is, a Fighter or a Ranger can take this class before a Rogue, and can get accelerated casting as early as level 4. While not quite Ur-Priest level, this is pretty strong. I can get 6th level spells at a character level of 9 - that's two full levels before the Wizard. I would change the Sleight of Hand requirement to 8 ranks, and the Tumble requirement to 5.
    - The restriction to Medium creatures is baffling to me. Wouldn't Small creatures be better at stealing?

    In the end, I think you've got too many things going on here. By the end of its run (at level 14, if you're doing it right), you've got level 6 spells, a respectable sneak attack analogue in siphon strike, hide in plain sight, Intelligence to attacks, free metamagic, and some very powerful stealing and detection abilities. I think you could have a class that focuses just on the "stealing" abilities and it would still be a good class. As it is, you've made a class that any mundane character would be crazy not to take.
    1. I kinda wanted it to be tier 2 or a good tier 3 but mainly i wanted a class that is fun and thief like. And proofreading is something i really have to do.. already found 2 mistakes ..
    2 and 3. You are right. I think I up the Sleight of Hand requirement and put an additional minimum of lvl 5 into the requirements. I wanted this class to be taken around lvl 5-7.
    4. The restriction has to do with the fluff about the class with the "original" Ollidammara which will play a role when i ever start being a DM. It also has to do with the fact that i think this class can be utterly broken if someone takes an extreme small race.
    5. Well I already considered to slim down this class more but realized even though the stealing ability is good and tactical he still lacked in a 1 on 1 encounter( especially against sorcerer and the like). The spells were mainly taken from assassin and changed with a bit of icing to 5-6th level spells. Same with Hide in Plain Sight. The rest was kinda what would a real thief be able to do instead of Sneak Attack and all the feats he gets for fights. If u have suggestions what you would slim down on this class let me hear it please . About the magic progression it really is a bit fast. But in the end i didn't want to loose on too many spellslots as it becomes a problem in higher levels because this class won't get anything above 6th level spells anyway from his base or prc classes. Needs some rethinking for sure.

    Regarding requirements: for a sneaky class I feel BAB 4 is less... thematic than a Sleight of hand 7; it is odd that rogues have a harder time getting into a "thief" class than fighters do.
    Also it is odd that you need to get this mask, and then it isn't talked or heard of again; i'd expect some abilities to enhance the mask: from undetectable alignment, to increasing bonuses to disguise, to maybe mind blank or the like.

    Also: what is the caster level for knock?
    1. I think that mainly steams from my own mindset of rogues being thugs or at best assassins. I don't really consider rogues to be better thieves than fighters as fighters can disarm enemies in fight pretty good too. In fact the steal ability is a psion power imitation. Well xD.... might have to reconsider that though.
    2.The mask is talked about in the fluff of this class. It will play a more important role if I will be a DM. And I didn't want to make this class even more overpowered as is. The undetectable alignment is kinda something I probably should add. Moreover I thought of this mask more as a holy symbol in respects to Ollidammara himself as it is his symbol.
    3. Knock as far as I know has no caster level to be considered. If there is a need for this because it would otherwise break mechanics can you please tell me why? And suggest a caster level?


    Proofreading will be done tomorrow!
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-04-05 at 08:14 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteBread View Post
    1. I think that mainly steams from my own mindset of rogues being thugs or at best assassins. I don't really consider rogues to be better thieves than fighters as fighters can disarm enemies in fight pretty good too. In fact the steal ability is a psion power imitation. Well xD.... might have to reconsider that though.
    2.The mask is talked about in the fluff of this class. It will play a more important role if I will be a DM. And I didn't want to make this class even more overpowered as is. The undetectable alignment is kinda something I probably should add. Moreover I thought of this mask more as a holy symbol in respects to Ollidammara himself as it is his symbol.
    3. Knock as far as I know has no caster level to be considered. If there is a need for this because it would otherwise break mechanics can you please tell me why? And suggest a caster level?
    1: rogues get the stealthy-stealy skills as class skills, and the points to use them. the most thuggish thing of them is the bonus sneak attack damage, but that's from anything but brute force, rather sneak attack comes from precise targeting of a weak spot.
    2: keeping balance: fair enough, though the some of the abilities could be tied to the mask itself; otherwise the mask straddles this odd spot between fluff and crunch.It could be tied to the Detect, hide in plain sight, and disappear abilities. or be needed as a focus for spellcasting..
    2a: "A Plunderer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Plunderer spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." So like a sorcerer? or are you saying wizards needn't prepare spells? Seeing how the class has a strong Olidamara tie: why not make it a divine caster?
    3: the area affected by a Knock spell is dependent on caster level. Maybe allow the rogue to determine how large an area they affect?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteBread View Post
    5. Well I already considered to slim down this class more but realized even though the stealing ability is good and tactical he still lacked in a 1 on 1 encounter( especially against sorcerer and the like). The spells were mainly taken from assassin and changed with a bit of icing to 5-6th level spells. Same with Hide in Plain Sight. The rest was kinda what would a real thief be able to do instead of Sneak Attack and all the feats he gets for fights. If u have suggestions what you would slim down on this class let me hear it please . About the magic progression it really is a bit fast. But in the end i didn't want to loose on too many spellslots as it becomes a problem in higher levels because this class won't get anything above 6th level spells anyway from his base or prc classes. Needs some rethinking for sure.

    It seems like a roguey analogue to Prestige Paladin. To slim it down have the spells cap off at 4; Maybe give them some cantrips/orisions.

    Side note: I noticed Steal is "attempted" but there is no chance of it failing. Perhaps a Steal Use or have it be keyed off a skill? An opposed skill check? In which case maybe make it Ex rather than Su.

    There are a couple spells that would fit the theme of the class:
    Fool's Gold and Cheat
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2016-04-05 at 10:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    1. Yep I already upped the needed sleight of hand.. currently without special feats rogue gets it at 5 and other base classes at 6. But i probably gonna up it abit more.
    2. I think tying it to the hide abilities might work nicely. Gonna try to redo them abit.
    2a. Yes he casts like a sorcerer and needs only sleep to refresh his daily spells. The exception is here that he doesnt get to pick which spells he knows but automatically shall receive knowledge of them once he is able to cast them. But I stick to the arcane because fluff wise they don't get their spellpower from Ollidammara but from a predecessor who is already destroyed but some of his power is left in the world and gets absorbed by people and becomes part of their own. They aren't channeling magic like cleric do. In fluff which i probably should add Ollidammara crafted this mask too to absorb the power of a goddess, but he was a half god at that time and therefore absorbed much more power. The little pieces left are what give the casting to this class.(homebrew)
    3. I wrote he casts a knock spell except for changes noted... it basically takes the area range of the original spell

    It seems like a roguey analogue to Prestige Paladin. To slim it down have the spells cap off at 4; Maybe give them some cantrips/orisions.

    Side note: I noticed Steal is "attempted" but there is no chance of it failing. Perhaps a Steal Use or have it be keyed off a skill? An opposed skill check? In which case maybe make it Ex rather than Su.

    There are a couple spells that would fit the theme of the class:
    Fool's Gold and Cheat
    1. hmm might try a slim down ... but i guess it would be a solid tier 3 then?
    2. Steal has a will save mentioned at the top against the sleight of hand.
    3.Spells are awesome and will be added ! :D



    Edit: Done some proofreading but if u find anything really wrong point me to it , changed the Sleight of Hand requirement and Minimum Level, cut the progression(from below) but kept the amount of spellslots so far(-> wanted this to be ortiented at sorcerer less than bards, 5&6 spells are few and something i would like to keep currently retrying building some characters around it and look if it really needs to be cut ), added mask requirement for Disappear (ex) (Hide in Plain Sight might get reworked on Mask requirement too, added 2 spells to 1st and 2nd, made text of knock a bit clearer about its CL, made some text italic for better reading and changed race requirement to all humanoid.
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-04-06 at 08:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteBread View Post
    3. I wrote he casts a knock spell except for changes noted... it basically takes the area range of the original spell
    But you didn't note a change to the area or give a range, and didn't give a caster level to the ability
    Note that range means the distance at which the spell is cast (personal, touch, close...)
    Knock has a range of close which means 25'+5' per level (which is still undefined for the ability)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    But you didn't note a change to the area or give a range, and didn't give a caster level to the ability
    Note that range means the distance at which the spell is cast (personal, touch, close...)
    Knock has a range of close which means 25'+5' per level (which is still undefined for the ability)
    I don't know if it is allowed to post things of other books here. But if u look up knock it already gives a range of
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    and aoe was already given but only for a single target. My ability here can affect all targets within range.
    Target: One door, box, or chest with an area of up to 10 sq. ft./level
    and the ability Knock(sp) works exactly like the knock spell except for the fact it affects more than 1 target and untraps if check is high enough.
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-04-06 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteBread View Post
    I don't know if it is allowed to post things of other books here. But if u look up knock it already gives a range of

    and aoe was already given but only for a single target. My ability here can affect all targets within range.

    and the ability Knock(sp) works exactly like the knock spell except for the fact it affects more than 1 target and untraps if check is high enough.
    Misremembered the range but point stands: what is the caster level for the knock sla? You say within range but the range requires a CL (that's what the +10' per level refers to).
    Or is it just the base 100'? (I assume it is equal to the Plunderer level but there is no reason to assume that.)
    And what area does this range represent: is it a cone? A line? A burst? Does it penetrate materials? Cover? Extraplanar spaces? If the answers are yes, then the plunderer really doesn't really need very many uses at all. One use will cover a LOT of area. (In which case maybe limit the number of locks to their ranks in Open Lock?)
    or does it affect the area of 10sqft per CL? (Which referred to the maximum size of object one can affect, but is a more reasonable size of effect) one runs into the CL issue again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    Misremembered the range but point stands: what is the caster level for the knock sla? You say within range but the range requires a CL (that's what the +10' per level refers to).
    Or is it just the base 100'? (I assume it is equal to the Plunderer level but there is no reason to assume that.)
    And what area does this range represent: is it a cone? A line? A burst? Does it penetrate materials? Cover? Extraplanar spaces? If the answers are yes, then the plunderer really doesn't really need very many uses at all. One use will cover a LOT of area. (In which case maybe limit the number of locks to their ranks in Open Lock?)
    or does it affect the area of 10sqft per CL? (Which referred to the maximum size of object one can affect, but is a more reasonable size of effect) one runs into the CL issue again.
    Okay i get what you mean now. I only specified caster level at "Improved Spellcasting" where his normal CL=plunderer level changes to CL= total level. I don't really know if i have to specify this. I looked up sorcerer and other classes and they don't mention it in particular. But it is meant to be at the beginning CL= Plunderer Level for plunderer spells.
    About the knock i think it is clear that "in range" means a radius in 100f +10/level. Question is here : can a normal knock do any of the above? I wanted this ability to unlock anything within range of this 100feet even if it is not visable. As far as i know you can unlock stuff you know about with divination even if u can't see them behind a wall. I don't think it should be able to affect extraplaner spaces or maybe my understanding of them is kinda wrong. Except maybe if there is an open portal and he focuses to unlock something behind it .... but that isn't specified in knock either. I doubt there ever will be that many locks in one place to limit the ability. And i also wanted this "everything in range" have some risk too.. many locks are trapped and unlocking carelessly might lead to ones doom or unlocking locks which u didn't notice. "Be careful to not accidentally open Pandora's box".

    But all that aside how would you phrase the ability instead? Maybe it gets easier to understand. My english is not the best xD..

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Knock requires line of sight and effect to the target. As such it doesn't cover an area, there is just a range at which the target can be affected.
    However you've turned Knock into an area effect (a sphere it seems): as such you have to decide if it is a bust or a spread. Burst is blocked by cover, an emanation isn't.

    How I'd phrase it... When I get home I'll write something up.
    I'd go Su and use a skill check to see how many locks/doors/traps are affected or for how long they can be controlled; I'd limit the distance at which the effect can be used to 50'. Add an Open/Close (to deal with poisoned handles and fingerprints) and a Locking effect to it and it becomes more of a distinct ability that can be used for a number of smaller and more controlled effects; breaking in is only half the job. So is breaking out.
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2016-04-06 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Kay, way I'd go about writing the Knock ability:

    [Ability Name] Su
    X* times per day the Plunderer can affect a number of objects within [range**], causing them to close or open, lock or unlock, as the Plunderer sees fit.

    Upon activating this ability, the Plunderer becomes instantly aware of the existence of all locks, and closed or held shut items within rage, as well of their general location and nature (thus a Plunderer may know that the chest has two locks, and that within in there is a closed bag, and that a wall has a hidden door, but could not pinpoint the precise location of any of these things) and can choose to affect some of them, producing a number of effects up to the Plunderer's ranks in Open Lock:
    they can unlock a lock, loosen chains or ropes holding an item shut, unstick a stuck door or an item's hinges, loosen a welded item (provided the welding is holding an item shut), open a closed container or door weighing up to 100 lbs, unbar a barred door, or suppress an arcane lock for one minute.
    Upon affecting the item, the Plunderer becomes instantly aware of its precise position and can easily find it.

    If an effect the Plunderer wishes to produce would trigger a trap, the Plunderer may attempt to disable it with the corresponding Disable Device check as normal. If they succeed they become aware of the nature of the trap they have disabled. Thus only a Plunderer with trapfinding can affect magical traps, or traps with a DC of 20 or higher.
    After one minute the effects of the Plunderer's [ability name] are reverted, if possible: opened items are closed, ropes are reknotted, traps reset, etcetera; though broken items are not repaired in any way, nor are moved items returned to their original place.

    The Plunderer's [ability name] requires a swift action to activate.

    *Plunderer level or half plunderer level plus one ought be okay
    **I'd set the range to something smallish: 10' per plunderer level or 50'. That way they can open a bunch of things but don't instantly open every item everywhere.
    I tweaked it so it would get stronger with stronger skills; it is good that the thief class has magical abilities, but a lot depends on their native agility and cunning (this ability will run out in a stealing heavy day) and thus the skill bonuses to the magical power feels like it dovetails well.
    It might seem a lot that they get their open-lock rank in effects, but against just opening everything, at least it puts a cap on it.

    I set the overall power of this around a Chime of Opening level, and then tweaked it to be higher.

    The awareness of the items is mostly so the player can pick what they open, instead of finding that every door is suddenly unlocked, prisioner freed, and tied up guard suddenly free.

    The items closing bit at the end makes it so that they are a bit sneakier.
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2016-04-06 at 05:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Sounds awesome so far! I would add "trick locks" or "trick boxes" to the text. And 1 more thing is about the magical traps. They are as far as i know not influenced by a Disable Device Check but need a dispel magic similar effect. So currently as it stands he can't affect them in any way. He doesn't have dispel magic in his repertoire and the current text would not allow for opening magical traps. Moreover you said that it would only be detectable via trapfinding but later on he gets his Detect(Sp) which works as arcane sight or the very least lets him detect magical traps. Would it be too much to add a dispel magic if his Open Lock Skill is high enough? Or maybe i should add dispel magic to his repertoire of spells?

    Edit: I stand corrected, a rogue would be able to use a Disable Device Check on it. But only a Rogue as in the SRD. That would pose a problem for all other classes that want to take up this class. Still thinking of adding dispel magic or adding this via text form.

    Edit2: I am thinking of changing of "Improved Casting" to "Masked Casting" and take away the "still magic and silent magic" and instead change it for "sudden" only. 2 metamagic feats are kinda alot for a single ability and i think a thief should be fast at what he is doing. Moreover he doesn't have concentration as a class skill so i don't know how that is even handled in a fighting situation with AoO.
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-04-07 at 07:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteBread View Post
    Sounds awesome so far! I would add "trick locks" or "trick boxes" to the text. And 1 more thing is about the magical traps. They are as far as i know not influenced by a Disable Device Check but need a dispel magic similar effect. So currently as it stands he can't affect them in any way
    where are they from?
    He doesn't have dispel magic in his repertoire and the current text would not allow for opening magical traps. Moreover you said that it would only be detectable via trapfinding but later on he gets his Detect(Sp) which works as arcane sight or the very least lets him detect magical traps. Would it be too much to add a dispel magic if his Open Lock Skill is high enough? Or maybe i should add dispel magic to his repertoire of spells?
    I figured him dealing with traps as part of a swift action and at a distance is strong enough already.
    Edit: I stand corrected, a rogue would be able to use a Disable Device Check on it. But only a Rogue as in the SRD. That would pose a problem for all other classes that want to take up this class. Still thinking of adding dispel magic or adding this via text form.
    a number of other sneaky classes get trapfinding, and rogue is a natural point of entry for this class if one looks at the skills and abilities. Spellcasters and half casters don't get much out of the class (they have better spells), and fighter types don't have the skill points to use it to its fullest.
    This is sort of a counterpart to the assassin, the stealy stealthy side of rogues versus the stabby stealthy assassin
    Edit2: I am thinking of changing of "Improved Casting" to "Masked Casting" and take away the "still magic and silent magic" and instead change it for "sudden" only. 2 metamagic feats are kinda alot for a single ability and i think a thief should be fast at what he is doing. Moreover he doesn't have concentration as a class skill so i don't know how that is even handled in a fighting situation with AoO.
    A good name change. Check the combat casting rules then. They're on the SRD. Casters ought have concentration as a class skill.
    Maybe give them casting like a runescarred berserker sans the gp and xp cost. They get make a number of temporary oils and potions or charms, and they can use them within 24 hours of creation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    1. From the original text of "knock" spell. I figured that it would make sense to add it.#

    2. and 3. Okay i checked the SRD and a rogue can actually Disable Magical Traps anyway so i just added it to the text. I added a Dispel Magic spell to his spells simply for the reason that a mage can easily make a permanent firewall in front of an entrance and that would basically make the unlocking of the door useless. I figured he would need it in a special type of prison that doesn't have locks etc. But than again that spell is easily obtainable by other casters or via wands, staffs or on your weapon etc. So i didn't know if it is really necessary or if it has any balancing issues.

    3. Hmm concentration is something i thought only true casters would have. I might add the skill or make him use a substitute skill. will add concentration


    Changes i made: Improved Spellcasting to Masked Spellcasting ( Currently missing fluff, will add later. The mask might be a bit of a weak point to this class now, destroying it will disable some of his abilities. Like a Spellbook? more like a rod. Added quicken for now and testing. ), added Dispel Magic and greater to the spell list, Rewrote knock, lowered the max spells from 7 to 6 from 1-5th spells(might lower it to max of 5), changed hide in plain sight from lvl 6th to lvl 8th ability.
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-04-07 at 09:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    So I'd move the benefit of the mask to a lvl 1 ability; remove the level requirement (it is odd; a min skill at 8 does that just as well, or a reflex save of +4)
    Overall it looks a lot better.
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2016-04-07 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    So I'd move the benefit of the mask to a lvl 1 ability; remove the level requirement (it is odd; a min skill at 8 does that just as well, or a reflex save of +4)
    Overall it looks a lot better.
    Yep going to tweak the text for better reading a bit but i think it should be pretty nice now. Need ppl to playtest it xD.. Thanks for all the help !!

    Edit: Added Concentration now. Kept 6 max slots for 1-5th level. Added "Masked Thief" to first level abilities and removed most of the text from requirements. Removed min lvl 5 and added Sleight of Hand(8) requirement.
    Last edited by WhiteBread; 2016-04-07 at 12:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Trying to make a cooler Thief Class

    Masked thief would be good if the mask was the holy symbol (there is precedent for that with the Sanctified armor add-on)
    Having to keep the mask on to work the Su and Sp class powers makes the "masked thief" name a lot more evocative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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