How Many Houserules Does 5E Need?

[Shaofoo]

Simulacrum is 7th level and therefore doesn't cause wish to have a chance of failing or any negative side effects. It also bypasses the material and somatic components. So you can create 1 simulacra a day with no cost that can in turn create 2 more copies of you (not them), which each can create 2 more copies of you. To infinity.

Even by the strictest most locked down reading you have about 3 Simulacra each 1/2 the level of the last, who you then tell to tell their created simulacra to obey you as if you were them.

No, they can't.

They create a copy of you, your entire statistics, including spent spell slots.

Using Wish as a Simulacrum substitute creates a Simulacrum without a 9th level slot so no Wish for the Simulacrum so no way to either gain material components or cast Simulacrum itself without having ruby dust.

This is the reason why Simulacrum chains actually cast Simulacrum and don't Wish for casting Simulacrum.

[NewDM]

No, they can't.

They create a copy of you, your entire statistics, including spent spell slots.

Using Wish as a Simulacrum substitute creates a Simulacrum without a 9th level slot so no Wish for the Simulacrum so no way to either gain material components or cast Simulacrum itself without having ruby dust.

This is the reason why Simulacrum chains actually cast Simulacrum and don't Wish for casting Simulacrum.

Well the chain actually works by the wizard creating a simulacra by first casting Creation using wish to create a ruby (or whatever). Somehow gaining a 1,500 gp worth of powdered ruby. Then you use that as a component to cast simulacrum regularly. Then you now have a simulacra with a 9th level slot. You wait until the next day and recover all spells. Your simulacra then casts simulacrum on you and they gain a simulacra that is 1/2 hit points but with all your spell slots. You repeat as many times as necessary until you have an army of Simulacra all with full spells (all but the last missing their 9th level slot).

Edit: Creation stuff can't be used for spell components.

[jas61292]

Well the chain actually works by you creating a simulacra by first casting Creation using wish to create a ruby (or whatever)

Creation: "Using any material created by this spell as another spell’s material component causes that spell to fail."

So no, that's not gonna work. You actually need to find that material component.

Of course, wish can just ignore that, but... wish is super broken, so... yeah...

[charcoalninja]

Arguing that Simulacrum is fine because it can't be easily cast is silly. Even if the player gets to use it ONCE in a campaign it instantly overshadows anything any other character can do as long as it lasts. That is broken, just as it is in any other edition with the spell.

[jas61292]

Arguing that Simulacrum is fine because it can't be easily cast is silly. Even if the player gets to use it ONCE in a campaign it instantly overshadows anything any other character can do as long as it lasts. That is broken, just as it is in any other edition with the spell.

I don't necessarily agree. Wish makes it broken, sure, but without that, its not that amazing. Its expensive, and the thing it creates is not going to be good for that long, as it cannot regain spells and is hard (and expensive) to heal.

[mgshamster]

I already did that. I divided all the spells in the PHB, EEPC, and SCAG into those that are only useful in combat (barring niche situations), those that are only useful out of combat (barring niche situations), and those that can be useful both in and out of combat. There's some subjectivity, largely in how creatively the spell descriptions are interpreted. Still, for what it's worth, here are my lists:

Spoiler: Combat Only Spells

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PHB Cantrips:
Acid Splash, Blade Ward, Chill Touch, Eldritch Blast, Poison Spray, Ray of Frost, Sacred Flame, Shillelagh, Shocking Grasp, Thorn Whip, True Strike, Vicious Mockery

EEPC Cantrips:
Frostbite, Magic Stone, Thunderclap

SCAG Cantrips:
Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Sword Burst

PHB Level 1+ Spells:
Antilife Shell, Armor of Agathys, Arms of Hadar, Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Bane, Banishing Smite, Banishment, Barkskin, Beacon of Hope, Bestow Curse, Blade Barrier, Bless, Blight, Blinding Smite, Blindness/Darkness, Blur, Branding Smite, Burning Hands, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning, Chromatic Orb, Circle of Death, Circle of Power, Cloud of Daggers, Cloudkill, Color Spray, Compelled Duel, Compulsion, Cone of Cold, Confusion, Conjure Barrage, Conjure Volley, Contagion, Cordon of Arrows, Counterspell, Crown of Madness, Crusader’s Mantle, Darkness, Death Ward, Delayed Blast Fireball, Destruction Wave, Dispel Evil and Good, Dissonant Whispers, Divine Favor, Divine Word, Earthquake, Elemental Weapon, Ensnaring Strike, Entangle, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Eyebite, False Life, Fear, Feeblemind, Finger of Death, Fire Shield, Fire Storm, Fireball, Flame Blade, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Flesh to Stone, Fog Cloud, Forcecage, Foresight, Globe of Invulnerability, Grasping Vine, Grease, Guardian of Faith, Guiding Bolt, Hail of Thorns, Harm, Haste, Heat Metal, Hellish Rebuke, Heroism, Hex, Hold Monster, Hold Person, Holy Aura, Hunger of Hadar, Hunter’s Mark, Ice Storm, Imprisonment, Incendiary Cloud, Inflict Wounds, Insect Plague, Lightning Arrow, Lightning Bolt, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Maze, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Meteor Swarm, Mirror Image, Moonbeam, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere, Otto’s Irresistible Dance, Phantasmal Killer, Power Word Kill, Power Word Stun, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall, Protection from Evil and Good, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Sickness, Sanctuary, Scorching Ray, Searing Smite, Shatter, Shield, Shield of Faith, Sleep, Sleet Storm, Slow, Spike Growth, Spirit Guardian, Spiritual Weapon, Staggering Smite, Stinking Cloud, Stoneskin, Storm of Vengeance, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Swift Quiver, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Thunderous Smite, Thunderwave, Tsunami, Vampiric Touch, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wall of Thorns, Warding Bond, Web, Weird, Wind Wall, Witch Bolt, Wrathful Smite

EEPC Level 1+ Spells:
Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting, Absorb Elements, Aganazzar’s Scorcher, Dust Devil, Earth Tremor, Earthbind, Elemental Bane, Erupting Earth, Flame Arrows, Ice Knife, Immolation, Investiture of Flame, Investiture of Ice, Maelstrom, Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp, Melf’s Minute Meteors, Primordial Ward, Pyrotechnics, Snilloc’s Snowball Storm, Storm Sphere, Tidal Wave, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Sand, Wall of Water, Warding Wind, Watery Sphere, Whirlwind

Spoiler: Non-Combat Only Spells

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PHB Cantrips:
Dancing Lights, Druidcraft, Friends, Guidance, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy

EEPC Cantrips:
Shape Water

PHB Level 1+ Spells:
Alarm, Animal Messenger, Antipathy/Sympathy, Arcane Eye, Arcane Lock, Astral Projection, Augury, Awaken, Beast Sense, Clairvoyance, Clone, Commune, Commune with Nature, Comprehend Languages, Contact Other Plane, Continual Flame, Control Weather, Create Food and Water, Create or Destroy Water, Creation, Demiplane, Detect Evil and Good, Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Detect Thoughts, Disguise Self, Divination, Drawmij’s Instant Summons, Dream, Etherealness, Fabricate, Feign Death, Find the Path, Find Traps, Forbiddance, Gaseous Form, Gate, Geas, Gentle Repose, Glibness, Glyph of Warding, Guards and Wards, Hallow, Hallucinatory Terrain, Identify, Illusory Script, Knock, Legend Lore, Leomund’s Secret Chest, Leomund’s Tiny Hut, Locate Animals or Plants, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Magic Circle, Magic Mouth, Meld into Stone, Mirage Arcane, Modify Memory, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum, Move Earth, Nondetection, Nystul’s Magic Aura, Pass Without Trace, Passwall, Phantom Steed, Planar Binding, Prayer of Healing, Project Image, Purify Food and Drink, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Reincarnate, Remove Curse, Resurrection, Rope Trick, Scrying, See Invisibility, Seeming, Sending, Sequester, Speak with Animals, Speak with Dead, Stone Shape, Symbol, Telepathy, Teleport, Teleportation Circle, Tenser’s Floating Disk, Tongues, Transport via Plants, Tree Stride, True Resurrection, Unseen Servant, Water Breathing, Water Walk, Wind Walk, Word of Recall, Zone of Truth

EEPC Level 1+ Spells:
Skywrite

Spoiler: Multi-Use Spells

Show

PHB Cantrips:
Fire Bolt, Produce Flame, Resistance, Spare the Dying

EEPC Cantrips:
Control Flames, Create Bonfire, Gust, Mold Earth

PHB Level 1+ Spells:
Aid, Alter Self, Animal Friendship, Animal Shapes, Animate Dead, Animate Objects, Antimagic Field, Arcane Gate, Aura of Vitality, Bigby’s Hand, Blink, Calm Emotions, Charm Person, Command, Conjure Animals, Conjure Celestial, Conjure Elemental, Conjure Fey, Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Woodland Beings, Contingency, Control Water, Create Undead, Cure Wounds, Darkvision, Daylight, Dimension Door, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Dominate Beast, Dominate Monster, Dominate Person, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Enthrall, Expeditious Retreat, Faerie Fire, Feather Fall, Find Familiar, Find Steed, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Giant Insect, Greater Invisibility, Goodberry, Greater Restoration, Gust of Wind, Heal, Healing Word, Heroes’ Feast, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Jump, Lesser Restoration, Levitate, Longstrider, Magic Jar, Major Image, Mass Cure Wounds, Mass Heal, Mass Healing Word, Mass Suggestion, Mind Blank, Mislead, Misty Step Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound, Phantasmal Force, Planar Ally, Plane Shift, Plant Growth, Polymorph, Power Word Heal, Programmed Illusion, Protection from Energy, Protection from Poison, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, Reverse Gravity, Revivify, Shapechange, Silence, Silent Image, Simulacrum, Speak with Plants, Spider Climb, Suggestion, Telekinesis, Time Stop, True Polymorph, True Seeing, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Wish

EEPC Level 1+ Spells:
Beast Bond, Bones of the Earth, Catapult, Control Winds, Investiture of Stone, Investiture of Wind, Transmute Rock

So for the numbers:

PHB Cantrips: 12 Combat, 11 Non-Combat, 4 Multi-Use
PHB Level 1+ Spells: 143 Combat, 99 Non-Combat, 92 Multi-Use
EEPC Cantrips: 3 Combat, 1 Non-Combat, 4 Multi-Use
EEPC Level 1+ Spells: 27 Combat, 1 Non-Combat, 7 Multi-Use
SCAG Cantrips: 4 Combat, 0 Non-Combat, 0 Multi-Use

That's about what I was expecting. Sightly more combat spells, because it's a combat focused game, but a good amount of non-combat spells and a good amount of spells which can be used as both.

In a functioning world, I'd expect there to be more non-combat spells, but since this is a game with an emphasis on combat, we end up with more combat spells. :)

[Shaofoo]

Arguing that Simulacrum is fine because it can't be easily cast is silly. Even if the player gets to use it ONCE in a campaign it instantly overshadows anything any other character can do as long as it lasts. That is broken, just as it is in any other edition with the spell.

I never said that, I am saying that there is a limiter to the spell that you can't cast Simulacrum as you wish and that outside of Wish use there is no way to cast it without DM intervention.

But like I said I would rather ban Simulacrum because I think it is the worst spell ever and should've never been in print but I should know that there are some limiters so that people know that such a spell can be limited. I think that we should take a good look as to everything and not look at the problem parts alone (This is why we have people who basically writes off Beserker Barbarian because they never bother to actually read beyond Frenzy, heck some call them Frenzy Barbarians because they believe that Frenzy is the only thing that they have.)

[NewDM]

Arguing that Simulacrum is fine because it can't be easily cast is silly. Even if the player gets to use it ONCE in a campaign it instantly overshadows anything any other character can do as long as it lasts. That is broken, just as it is in any other edition with the spell.

Yeah, because now all BBEGs are large or bigger, Moriarty intellects with spell caster levels, with legendary resistance and magic resistance, as well as no rubies existing anywhere. The convolutions DMs have to go through to make a working plot in 5e is just *$#%@.

[georgie_leech]

Yeah, because now all BBEGs are large or bigger, Moriarty intellects with spell caster levels, with legendary resistance and magic resistance, as well as no rubies existing anywhere. The convolutions DMs have to go through to make a working plot in 5e is just *$#%@.

Might I suggest limiting campaigns to lower levels if you don't enjoy trying to plan around high level spells? It's a bit of a moot point if a Level 17 caster can Wish for Simulacra if the campaign culminates in climactic duel between the PC's and the Cambion General atop his Tower of Doom at Level 12.

[Shaofoo]

Well the chain actually works by the wizard creating a simulacra by first casting Creation using wish to create a ruby (or whatever). Somehow gaining a 1,500 gp worth of powdered ruby. Then you use that as a component to cast simulacrum regularly. Then you now have a simulacra with a 9th level slot. You wait until the next day and recover all spells. Your simulacra then casts simulacrum on you and they gain a simulacra that is 1/2 hit points but with all your spell slots. You repeat as many times as necessary until you have an army of Simulacra all with full spells (all but the last missing their 9th level slot).

Edit: Creation stuff can't be used for spell components.

Except the first part is completely DM fiat, there is no way you can get powdered ruby guaranteed without DM intervention or Wish. And if you try to get powdered ruby with Wish you risk a 33% chance of never casting Wish again.

[krugaan]

Yeah, because now all BBEGs are large or bigger, Moriarty intellects with spell caster levels, with legendary resistance and magic resistance, as well as no rubies existing anywhere. The convolutions DMs have to go through to make a working plot in 5e is just *$#%@.

Haven't they always been like that? Like they weren't in 3.x...

If anything the nerfing of casters in 5E allows for a greater variety of BBEGs, imo.

[NewDM]

Might I suggest limiting campaigns to lower levels if you don't enjoy trying to plan around high level spells? It's a bit of a moot point if a Level 17 caster can Wish for Simulacra if the campaign culminates in climactic duel between the PC's and the Cambion General atop his Tower of Doom at Level 12.

Why should I limit my games? I want to play the full range from 1 to 30. I'm already stripped of the top 10 levels. Then I'm stripped of the first 3 levels if I don't want a Gritty game where players can go down from a lucky crit that will happen statistically virtually 100% of the time with 1 combat of 5 enemies (each enemy gets 0-5 attacks in; Every 20 attacks is a crit; combats are generally 4-6 rounds). I'd rather house rule, but that has its own problems.

Except the first part is completely DM fiat, there is no way you can get powdered ruby guaranteed without DM intervention or Wish. And if you try to get powdered ruby with Wish you risk a 33% chance of never casting Wish again.

Yes, to me this is worse than having to house rule, because I have to now have a world that is ruby free.

[NewDM]

Haven't they always been like that? Like they weren't in 3.x...

If anything the nerfing of casters in 5E allows for a greater variety of BBEGs, imo.

In 4E I could have anything be a BBEG. So for me this is a step back. I could have a Kobold be a BBEG if I wanted without any spells.

In fact I made a few bosses that were just the 4E version of Pole arm master. They controlled the area around them by stunning, knocking prone, or pulling enemies in, and could 'shift' about 30 feet.

[JoeJ]

Arguing that Simulacrum is fine because it can't be easily cast is silly. Even if the player gets to use it ONCE in a campaign it instantly overshadows anything any other character can do as long as it lasts. That is broken, just as it is in any other edition with the spell.

Hyperbole much?

[krugaan]

In 4E I could have anything be a BBEG. So for me this is a step back. I could have a Kobold be a BBEG if I wanted without any spells.

In fact I made a few bosses that were just the 4E version of Pole arm master. They controlled the area around them by stunning, knocking prone, or pulling enemies in, and could 'shift' about 30 feet.

Didn't play 4E, but I have a hard time imagining a kobold being a BBEG to a party of high level adventurers (or even mid level) with no spells or special defenses...

Oh.

[charcoalninja]

Hyperbole much?

Not at all. If you can tell me how for an adventuring day, say the height of the campaign, you have one character who suddenly shows up playing TWO characters is remotely balanced I'd love to hear it. The simulacrum has all the stats of the creature it copied except with 1/2 HP like say, the Party Warlock. So now the Wizard has a pocket Eldritch Blast machine that regenerates HP when it kills something gaining competative sustained DPR in addition to the wizard's full allotment of spell actions. Or he makes a copy of himself to double his spell slots for the adventure. Or he copies the Party Fighter, or the rogue or the Life Cleric to use his Healer Feat and Channel Divinities forever to give the party another pocket healer.

How is that on par with what other characters receive as a feature at level 13?

And as for the material component, how is that DM fiat? It's rubies, worth 1500gp that are powdered. You say: "Hey DM, I go to the Jewler and buy a lot of rubies." Denying that's like saying you can't cross the ocean because Boats don't exist. Its gorram RUBIES. The other component is HIS OWN HAIR... or that from any of his party members...

Edit: and this all assumes that the Simulacrum croaks at the end of the day. Every day it doesn't snuff it is another day where you laugh at the games Action economy and consol the beast master ranger about to commit hari kiri.

[JoeJ]

Not at all. If you can tell me how for an adventuring day, say the height of the campaign, you have one character who suddenly shows up playing TWO characters is remotely balanced I'd love to hear it. The simulacrum has all the stats of the creature it copied except with 1/2 HP like say, the Party Warlock. So now the Wizard has a pocket Eldritch Blast machine that regenerates HP when it kills something

Incorrect. It does not regain hp by killing something. It has to be repaired by the caster, at a significant cost.

gaining competative sustained DPR in addition to the wizard's full allotment of spell actions. Or he makes a copy of himself to double his spell slots for the adventure. Or he copies the Party Fighter, or the rogue or the Life Cleric to use his Healer Feat and Channel Divinities forever to give the party another pocket healer.

How is that on par with what other characters receive as a feature at level 13?.

Actually, that's on par with what every character receives at level 1: the ability to turn 1,500 gp into a huge increase in actions and dpr. So no problem there.

[RickAllison]

Incorrect. It does not regain hp by killing something. It has to be repaired by the caster, at a significant cost.



Actually, that's on par with what every character receives at level 1: the ability to turn 1,500 gp into a huge increase in actions and dpr. So no problem there.

His phrasing was wrong, but the concept is there. I believe he might be referring to the various 'Lock abilities like the False Life invocation and the Fiend ability that give temporary HP. Those extend the Simulacrum's lifespan considerably.

[jas61292]

His phrasing was wrong, but the concept is there. I believe he might be referring to the various 'Lock abilities like the False Life invocation and the Fiend ability that give temporary HP. Those extend the Simulacrum's lifespan considerably.

I guess its debatable whether or not it actually works for a simulacrum. Since it specifies that it needs to be repaired, in my (and probably many other people's) interpretation, the intent is that it cannot heal any other way.

[charcoalninja]

Yes I meant Temp HP, which is not healing btw, so the Sim can certainly take advantage of it.

Secondly yes, you can hire a dude for money, sure. Pretty sure you aren't going to be able to hire a 13th level Wizard minion that obeys your every command, and I'm flabbergasted that you're equating a hireling to what Simulacrum gives you. Saying you can hire someone at level 1 to tag along your adventures is the same as Simulcrum is like asking your DM at level 1 if you can trade your longsword for a wizard, since that's about how significant 1500gp is to a 13th+ level character in this game. A simulcrum isn't a hireling, it's sentient equipment that doubles your character power with a single spell slot. If Fighter had an ability that let him spend 1500gp to bring along his Fighting twin for the day that he could throw into any meat grinder he wanted and get him back the next day, people would be up in arms at how broken it is.

5E D&D is still vancian D&D and so it has high level magic problems.

[RedMage125]

{scrubbed}

[JoeJ]

Secondly yes, you can hire a dude for money, sure. Pretty sure you aren't going to be able to hire a 13th level Wizard minion that obeys your every command, and I'm flabbergasted that you're equating a hireling to what Simulacrum gives you. Saying you can hire someone at level 1 to tag along your adventures is the same as Simulcrum is like asking your DM at level 1 if you can trade your longsword for a wizard, since that's about how significant 1500gp is to a 13th+ level character in this game. A simulcrum isn't a hireling, it's sentient equipment that doubles your character power with a single spell slot.

LOL! 1500 gp is not a hireling it's your own private army. That blows way past doubling your combat power. Bounded accuracy means that large numbers of troops are deadlier in a stand up fight than even the highest level adventurer. Plus, mercenaries won't melt if somebody casts Dispel Magic on them.

If Fighter had an ability that let him spend 1500gp to bring along his Fighting twin for the day that he could throw into any meat grinder he wanted and get him back the next day, people would be up in arms at how broken it is.

First of all, without Wish if the wizard wants to get the simulacrum back the next day they'll have to spend the entire day just casting that one spell. And second, if what they wanted was combat power and only got one day's use out of a simulacrum for 1,500 gp, then that wizard got royally gipped.

Seriously, doubling your combat power is one of the least useful things you can do with this spell. Used that way, it's a huge waste of money that you could have been using to infiltrate the BBEG's organization, or decoy an assassin, or find out everything an enemy knows.

[charcoalninja]

LOL! 1500 gp is not a hireling it's your own private army. That blows way past doubling your combat power. Bounded accuracy means that large numbers of troops are deadlier in a stand up fight than even the highest level adventurer. Plus, mercenaries won't melt if somebody casts Dispel Magic on them.



First of all, without Wish if the wizard wants to get the simulacrum back the next day they'll have to spend the entire day just casting that one spell. And second, if what they wanted was combat power and only got one day's use out of a simulacrum for 1,500 gp, then that wizard got royally gipped.

Seriously, doubling your combat power is one of the least useful things you can do with this spell. Used that way, it's a huge waste of money that you could have been using to infiltrate the BBEG's organization, or decoy an assassin, or find out everything an enemy knows.

A mundie army doesn't hold a candle to a 13th level Wizard let alone one that can wish for things.

[2D8HP]

Are we counting variant rules as house rules?

If were critiquing/praising them sure, but if there already in the DMG or PHB I don't think we need to introduce others to the varient rule here. But if the rule (varient or otherwise) comes from any source outside of the core books, then sure it could be worth a "what do you think?".

[JoeJ]

A mundie army doesn't hold a candle to a 13th level Wizard let alone one that can wish for things.

Against the highest AC a wizard can attain, a single guard with a light crossbow does an average of 0.5 hp per round. For 1,500 gp you can hire 750 such troops, with a total average dpr of 375.

[2D8HP]

In 4E I could have anything be a BBEG. So for me this is a step back. I could have a Kobold be a BBEG if I wanted without any spells.
In fact I made a few bosses that were just the 4E version of Pole arm master. They controlled the area around them by stunning, knocking prone, or pulling enemies in, and could 'shift' about 30 feet.

NewDM,
It sounds like what you want is 4e but with faster combat. I don't really know 4e, but might it be easier if instead of house ruling 5e into being what you liked about 4e, you instead house rule a 4e but with faster combat using bits and pieces of other editions/games?
I can remember in the early 80's playing what we still called D&D, using the AD&D classes, levels, and magic systems, the "Arms Law" variant combat rules (the original part of what later became the Rolemaster game), and the skill system from Runequest. A bit of a mess, but we made it work. For a game to be perfect for you, roll up those sleeves and make it. For all I know you may have done this already, if not, try it. Playing a game that you put your stamp on can be fun.

[krugaan]

NewDM,
It sounds like what you want is 4e but with faster combat. I don't really know 4e, but might it be easier if instead of house ruling 5e into being what you liked about 4e, you instead house rule a 4e but with faster combat using bits and pieces of other editions/games?
I can remember in the early 80's playing what we still called D&D, using the AD&D classes, levels, and magic systems, the "Arms Law" variant combat rules (the original part of what later became the Rolemaster game), and the skill system from Runequest. A bit of a mess, but we made it work. For a game to be perfect for you, roll up those sleeves and make it. For all I know you may have done this already, if not, try it. Playing a game that you put your stamp on can be fun.

{Scrubbed}

[NewDM]

{scrubbed}

[Regitnui]

Both of those situations seem like they have a lot of possible outcomes (including, for each, the other one) - it's only the HP abstraction that turns combat into a race to zero.

I've watched enough action movies to think of a whole bunch of violent responses. And I can think of plenty of class abilities to deal with socializing. Expend one Connection Point to create a point of common history. Make an Insight check to determine the target's motive for the last statement they made. And go so.

I can also abstract combat, which, as you point out, is much more direct. Make a Fight check and deal 1 damage per point you beat your opponent's AC. Why complicate things when there's really only one outcome?

Alright, duly noted. That idea is useless.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

He wasn't trolling. A number of people are of the opinion that 4e was WotC's attempt at getting the MMORPG crowd to play tabletop. All the criticisms I've heard about the "WoW controls" or "trading card abilities" doesn't make 4e a less fun game. It just makes it less D&D, and like they swung to the complete opposite end of the spectrum after 3.5's glut of rules and classes. 5e takes the best of 4e and 3.5 and merges it. And there are a few small glitches.

Why should I limit my games? I want to play the full range from 1 to 30. I'm already stripped of the top 10 levels. Then I'm stripped of the first 3 levels if I don't want a Gritty game where players can go down from a lucky crit that will happen statistically virtually 100% of the time with 1 combat of 5 enemies (each enemy gets 0-5 attacks in; Every 20 attacks is a crit; combats are generally 4-6 rounds). I'd rather house rule, but that has its own problems.

Yes, to me this is worse than having to house rule, because I have to now have a world that is ruby free.

OK, having a world that misses a kind of gem is worse than house banning a dangerous spell?

But more importantly, I think I can see where you're coming from. You want 4e. Nothing wrong with that. Keep playing 4e. One of my best friends is running a 4e campaign to great applause. But don't expect 5e to be 4e. 1-30 was never the full range until 4e. 3.5 hit the cap at 20 until an optional book (Epic Level Handbook) came along. 20 has long been D&D's 'magic number'. Critical hit, complete success, pinnacle of the class. 5e goes back to 20-cap.

[NewDM]

He wasn't trolling. A number of people are of the opinion that 4e was WotC's attempt at getting the MMORPG crowd to play tabletop. All the criticisms I've heard about the "WoW controls" or "trading card abilities" doesn't make 4e a less fun game. It just makes it less D&D, and like they swung to the complete opposite end of the spectrum after 3.5's glut of rules and classes. 5e takes the best of 4e and 3.5 and merges it. And there are a few small glitches.

Except that's not what the post said. The post said there weren't any out of combat spells, which is flat out factually wrong. Its a meme.

OK, having a world that misses a kind of gem is worse than house banning a dangerous spell?

Having to house rule or ban anything is a mark against the game.

But more importantly, I think I can see where you're coming from. You want 4e. Nothing wrong with that. Keep playing 4e. One of my best friends is running a 4e campaign to great applause. But don't expect 5e to be 4e. 1-30 was never the full range until 4e. 3.5 hit the cap at 20 until an optional book (Epic Level Handbook) came along. 20 has long been D&D's 'magic number'. Critical hit, complete success, pinnacle of the class. 5e goes back to 20-cap.

Nah, I want what 4e brought to the table. It was balanced, you could have anything be the BBEG and it was fast to prep. That's it. If 5e was that way, I'd be singing its praises right along next to you people, but sadly its not.